111 réponses à ce sujet

[Quarian Master Race]

 

Legion, while an info dump, was no worse than ME1 Tali in this regard. Though Legion's excuse was that he's a robot. I'm not so sure what Tali's excuse was. I still maintain that, BG1's cast aside, she's likely Bioware's worst character, at least in terms of her ME1 conversations.

It was a lot worse actually. ME1 Tali does iterate about her interest in ships, dealing with culture shock, her family and upbringing experiences, expectations of her pilgrimage, ideology on the geth and the concept of synthetic personhood etc. You can dislike the character's verbosity, but assigning the info dump label is inaccurate.

Legion talks about the N7 armor. That's literally the only personal anecdote it gives us. Even its whole loyalty mission has nothing to do with it personally and everything to do with the geth schism. Not really comparable at all.

Lol @ robot as an excuse for Legion being a non character. How does EDI manage to have a personality then? 

"Bioware's Worst Character" is highly subjective, but in terms of writing criticism Legion would probably win that title due to how little we actually learn about it personally and how nonsensical its "development" (i.e. sudden and inexplicable onset of Pinnochio syndrome) is.

On the other hand, I don't think info dump just means "someone tells me about their culture". If we take Wrex as an example, he relates Krogan culture through his personal experiences pretty often. Tali, as I recall, never does this in ME1. The most I recall is her briefly mentioning her father being really busy, while all her dialogue options involve "Tell me about Quarian economics", "tell me about Quarian politics", etc.

Her first on ship conversation starts with her talking about an experience patching a fuel line on a converted tug compared to working on the most advanced ship in Council space. The entire 2nd conversation that starts with her describing her insomnia is about personal experiences and the resulting homesickness and culture shock. The conversation about her family also discusses her mother's death and her personal dealing with societal expectations imposed by her unique position in the social structure as the single child of an upstanding public figure. In order for you to understand why any of these things matter to her characterization, you have to understand the unique society which produced them. It'd be pretty baffling if Tali tells you she can't sleep because the Normandy is too quiet, then just leaves it at that.
 

I don't understand the point of the comparison with Wrex. He is an 800 year old mercenary who has traveled the entire galaxy in his line of work. Tali's a sheltered 22 year old kid who has lived on a single ship her whole life; completely different character archetypes. They shouldn't iterate things in the same manner, and even if they did what similar experiences are you expecting the latter to iterate? Sleepovers watching Fleet & Flotilla? Her mechanical engineering studies at Rayya technical university? People would just complain that now she's droning about the quarian school system, or social practices. Younger characters simply can't be written the same way as older ones.

[SinisterSquash]

When I opened the doors to the AI core room I caught Legion dancing, then he stopped and oddly turned around and faced me. I was scared. I wonder, if while Shepard slept, was he standing at the foot of his/her bed...

 

                                                                   

 

or maybe...

 

 

Efleck (deviantart)

[Il Divo]

 

Iwas a lot worse actually. ME1 Tali does iterate about her interest in ships, dealing with culture shock, her family and upbringing experiences, expectations of her pilgrimage, ideology on the geth and the concept of synthetic personhood etc. You can dislike the character's verbosity, but assigning the info dump label is inaccurate.

 

 

Actually, it's pretty accurate:

 

 

Formal discussion of the Conclave, Quarian pilgrimage, Geth history, etc. Info dump is pretty appropriate in this instance for the majority of Tali's Normandy interactions, especially compared to virtually every other Bioware character created, excluding emotionless robots. Tali's certainly not the first Bioware character to provide context for another culture, she just happens to be among the worst.

 

Legion talks about the N7 armor. That's literally the only personal anecdote it gives us. Even its whole loyalty mission has nothing to do with it personally and everything to do with the geth schism. Not really comparable at all.

 

He shouldn't be giving us personal anecdotes, that's rather the point, given his nature.

 

Even the whole notion of Legion talking about the N7 armor, which as I recall was meant to indicate the Geth weren't emotionless, indicates pretty clearly that they're not able to relate to the world as any of us do.

 

 

Lol @ robot as an excuse for Legion being a non character. How does EDI manage to have a personality then? 

 

 

Uhh, because you're writing something that isn't really capable of interacting on a level you're capable of understanding? We could call Legion a "non-character" if that passivates you. But it's a bit like calling 2001's HAL a non-character, who coincidentally inspired EDI. It's not meant to relate in a manner that most other people are capable of. Tali doesn't have that excuse.

 

 

I don't understand the point of the comparison with Wrex. He is an 800 year old mercenary who has traveled the entire galaxy in his line of work. Tali's a sheltered 22 year old kid who has lived on a single ship her whole life; completely different character archetypes. They shouldn't iterate things in the same manner, and even if they did what similar experiences are you expecting the latter to iterate? Sleepovers watching Fleet & Flotilla? Her mechanical engineering studies at Rayya technical university? People would just complain that now she's droning about the quarian school system, or social practices. Younger characters simply can't be written the same way as older ones.

 

 

That's a bit of a cop-out, given that other authors are actually able to make younger characters interesting. How do other writers create younger characters? Do they all just talk about politics? How did they make Ashley work, for that matter? Hell, I think she's also one of Bioware's weaker characters, but by comparison she still beats Tali in every sense of the word, simply because she tells us about more than the political structure of the Alliance military. Likewise with Kaidan.

 

At the end of the day, coming up with ideas for how Bioware could make Tali interesting isn't really my job. I could toss a few ideas out here or there, sure, but ultimately it's their responsibility to write compelling characters. As the player, I tell them what I think worked and what didn't work.

[Battlebloodmage]

How can Bioware justify the protagonist banging everything if the aliens don't even look like humans?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well there's another problem. If the aliens aren't human-like, they really can't interface well with the ship or as squadmates. You already had special food needs for Garrus and Tali. No mention of special restroom needs for Grunt - damn! I would have hated to have had Kasumi's quarters. Gardiner was probably in there working once each shift. And don't give me this mass effect field crap either.

 

Not to mention sleeping quarters.

 

And what if you had a problem hanar floating around. You know, one with a gun in every tentacle and a lover in every port? And his elcor sidekick badassfully stealing the show from you? What would you do then?

[Sifr]

 

Formal discussion of the Conclave, Quarian pilgrimage, Geth history, etc. Info dump is pretty appropriate in this instance for the majority of Tali's Normandy interactions, especially compared to virtually every other Bioware character created, excluding emotionless robots. Tali's certainly not the first Bioware character to provide context for another culture, she just happens to be among the worst.

 

But it does make sense given her characterisation in the first game, as a slightly naive young woman who's only just experiencing life outside of the flotilla for the first time and contact with other alien species. Both Liara and Tali were the most introverted characters in the first game, due to their lack of experience with other aliens and cultures. We only have to look at both of them in ME2 and ME3 to see how much their confidence and assertiveness grew as a result of their time on the Normandy and friendships with Shepard.

 

What some might see as info-dumping on her culture, comes across more to me as someone who's extremely nervous when talking to Shepard (who she has a major crush on if male) and really doesn't have anything but her people to fall back on for conversation starters and topics she's comfortable discussing. It's no different from why Brits (like myself) have a reputation for off-handedly chatting about the weather, because it's something easy and relatable that we use to break the ice with someone we don't know.

 

Tali also implies that in the brief time she's been on Pilgrimage she's suffered discrimination and people looking down on her as either a vagrant or a member of the species who unleashed the Geth upon the galaxy (which even Garrus did in ME1). As the daughter of an Admiral, she is clearly proud of her people and wants to change the rest of the galaxy's opinions of them, which is the reason she even joined us in the first place. To me, that's why she jumps at the chance to explain her people and culture to Shepard, who's the first person she's ever met who actually listens.

[Il Divo]

But it does make sense given her characterisation in the first game, as a slightly naive young woman who's only just experiencing life outside of the flotilla for the first time and contact with other alien species. Both Liara and Tali were the most introverted characters in the first game, due to their lack of experience with other aliens and cultures. We only have to look at both of them in ME2 and ME3 to see how much their confidence and assertiveness grew as a result of their time on the Normandy and friendships with Shepard.

 

But that doesn't justify the nature of the character conversations. Tali being someone who defines herself by "Quarian duty"/existing as a naïve young woman can work as a plot point. But that requires some sort of mirror to bounce her character interactions off of. That doesn't really exist in ME1 as written. At least not in the Normandy conversations. The nature of the character conversations aren't about Tali growing into her own as a person: they're about Quarian economics and ship politics, etc.

 

Hence why I point her out to be essentially a Quarian Codex, because even as Commander Shepard, there's not really all that much opportunity to impart perspective on her life. All we can do is ask more questions about Geth history. In that respect, it's really no different than reading codex entries about Salarian Biology, etc.  
 

What some might see as info-dumping on her culture, comes across more to me as someone who's extremely nervous when talking to Shepard (who she has a major crush on if male) and really doesn't have anything but her people to fall back on for conversation starters and topics she's comfortable discussing. It's no different from why Brits (like myself) have a reputation for off-handedly chatting about the weather, because it's something easy and relatable that we use to break the ice with someone we don't know.​

 

 

I hint at this above, but this goes back to the point of the mirror. If Tali is the young naïve kid who is extremely nervous, then we need the ability to play the foil to that in some capacity.

 

If she's falling back on that as a conversation point, we should have the ability to call her out on it in some capacity to encourage her to develop into her own person. But again that's rather the problem, since the point of Tali's conversations aren't about her inexperience/naivety or helping her take steps down the "hero's journey". Take a look at Garrus, in terms of how we're able to discuss the direction of his character. I'd argue that would be even more critical for Tali.

[Ahriman]

How can Bioware justify the protagonist banging everything if the aliens don't even look like humans?

Have you ever seen internet outside BSN and local church site?

[GoldenGail3]

Franchise needs more of this
 

What? I don't really...

[TheButterflyEffect]

YES!!!! Aliens that actually look alien.

 

Sentient barreleye fish! My favourite. Or a goblin shark. One or the other.

 

Note about barreleye fish - the two little spots above the mouth are the nostrils. The two glowy looking orbs inside the head are in fact the eyes. A suitably alien design idea perhaps? Hmm.

 

 

[FlyingSquirrel]

Compared to other sci-fi franchises, I think Mass Effect is actually pretty good in this department, and it does take advantage of the added freedom of being a computer game as opposed to a live-action TV show or movie. The volus, elcor, rachni, and hanar all have noticeably non-human physiology, and the krogan and yahg certainly have distinct body structures even if they're still bipeds who breathe the same air as most of the other species.

 

Look at Star Trek: The Next Generation (which is actually a favorite of mine) - despite the Federation's stated commitment to diversity, probably 90% of the Enterprise-D's crew is human, and I don't think there's a single non-humanoid crew member. Take your average scene in Mass Effect, where there is probably more interspecies conflict than on ST:TNG, and there's a good chance that the majority of characters on the screen are aliens. Of course, ST:TNG was limited by the fact that they actually had to have actors playing the different characters in person, but ME still represents a relative step forward.

 

As for non-human psychology, we do get some of that, though I could have done without the implication, made by Samara at one point,  that humans are somehow more intellectually and philosophically diverse than other species. I wouldn't mind seeing an alien race that isn't hostile but with whom communication is exceptionally difficult due to psychological differences. I liked the way the rachni speak in terms of sound and color, but you still figure out what they're trying to say pretty quickly, whereas I suspect that might not be the case if we ever met aliens IRL.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Agree on Turians, they do look quite alien despite technical humanoid limitations, but Tali was shown to have human-like face already in ME1, so it has nothing to do with romance. They were space dalish since the beginning.

How was this shown in ME1?

[Shechinah]

The most popular character in Star Wars is a bucket with wheels that speaks via beeps and whistles.

 

I'll be honest and say I'm indifferent to R2-D2. He is not that interesting to me.  
 

[DanishViking]

OP you alien RACIST !!!

[Shechinah]

How was this shown in ME1?

 

It seems like you can glimpse some of Tali's facial structure through her visor;

http://vignette3.wik...=20140614192612

 
 

[TopTrog]

There is your problem.

 

The inherent problem of writing an alien is the writers and the audience are human.

Agreed. A key part that made the Mass Effect series so engaging for me were the relatable and interesting characters, especially the non-human ones. In order to achieve this and make the player really care about the characters, their design and charateristics will have necessarily to be quite anthropocentric in my opinion as this is just the way we are wired.

 

For what it is worth, I think that ME actually did an excellent job of presenting different ways of looking at the world, mostly exemplified/delivered by different non-human species. Key was for me here that all of these views were immediately relatable, which sort of implies them not being particularly alien at all.

 

That being said, I would really like having something truly alien in the next ME game. Maybe along the lines of the scramblers in Peter Watts´ novel "Blindsight" (which you can actually download for free on his website if you´re interested) . Those would surely be fascinating encounters, but not exactly suitable squad mates . 

[Sartoz]

                                                                                                     <<<<<<<<<<()>>>>>>>>>>

 

Oh, did I mention that the AVATAR Aliens are aliens and look aliens even though they are bipedal and humanoid looking?

 

Bio really has no need to go overboard on this!

 

Edit: spelling correction

[rocklikeafool]

This is pretty racist when you think about, insinuating that aliens have to act human in order for people to like them.

Translation: you think it's racist that fake aliens have typical Anthropomorphic body structures. Yes, HOW RACIST! We have a lot of aliens who clearly don't though. The Elcor were not human-like at all. The Hanar resemble odd jellyfish. The Volus look more like fat moles than anything else. Batarians have 4 eyes. The Krogan are basically reptiles. The Yahg are...whatever they are.

 

I think what you're failing to understand is that most of the party NPCs are rather...unorthodox members of their species. Hell, even many of the NPCs we meet are (Aethyta, anyone? http://masseffect.wi...triarch_Aethyta). Most of the aliens we meet tend to leave their homeworlds and dwell in areas that are more cosmopolitan. The few times we do go into situations on alien homeworlds (like in ME3), there was a war on. The aliens were just happy to have someone with a great reputation aiding them, so of course they were all nice and polite.

[Vortex13]

I think its the insinuation that more human-like = correct, and the use of shallow stereotyping for a cheap laugh is where the notions of 'racism' come from.

 

For the record, I don't think having Thane or Garus as a romance option was "racist", nor do I find having the Quarians being revealed to be extremely similar to us, or for the majority of the galactic society to have compatible social structures to humanity 'racist'. Though I do find the fact of how everything somehow conforms to our viewpoint and concepts of what is pleasing to be boring and a little contrived.

 

Now the situations that the various alien species are depicted in could be considered 'racist' if one just swapped a human into a similar scenario. Two of the prime examples for this are:

 

1. The Geth and EDI striving to become more like us (more human) and then concluding their respective arcs with the notion that they weren't truly alive until they became real boys/girls. Take a human from any minority group and then have them conform to the majority and then say how their life never really mattered until they became like everyone else and see how quickly that gets uncomfortable.

 

2. Blasto and the reduction to meme status for the Hanar/Elcor as a species. Sure, the first time we heard Blasto in ME 2 was funny, but (seemingly) making that running joke as the poster child for the Hanar was annoying. To compare, it would be like turing James Vega into every hispanic stereotype or having a person run around with black face for comedic effect.   

 

 

To reiterate: Are either of the two examples listed above indicative of 'racist' tendencies on part of the devs? No, but they are rather uninspired and lazy (IMO), and they could be considered racist if it was a human instead of a fictional alien.

[camphor]

I think its the insinuation that more human-like = correct, and the use of shallow stereotyping for a cheap laugh is where the notions of 'racism' come from.

 

For the record, I don't think having Thane or Garus as a romance option was "racist", nor do I find having the Quarians being revealed to be extremely similar to us, or for the majority of the galactic society to have compatible social structures to humanity 'racist'. Though I do find the fact of how everything somehow conforms to our viewpoint and concepts of what is pleasing to be boring and a little contrived.

 

Now the situations that the various alien species are depicted in could be considered 'racist' if one just swapped a human into a similar scenario. Two of the prime examples for this are:

 

1. The Geth and EDI striving to become more like us (more human) and then concluding their respective arcs with the notion that they weren't truly alive until they became real boys/girls. Take a human from any minority group and then have them conform to the majority and then say how their life never really mattered until they became like everyone else and see how quickly that gets uncomfortable.

 

2. Blasto and the reduction to meme status for the Hanar/Elcor as a species. Sure, the first time we heard Blasto in ME 2 was funny, but (seemingly) making that running joke as the poster child for the Hanar was annoying. To compare, it would be like turing James Vega into every hispanic stereotype or having a person run around with black face for comedic effect.   

 

 

To reiterate: Are either of the two examples listed above indicative of 'racist' tendencies on part of the devs? No, but they are rather uninspired and lazy (IMO), and they could be considered racist if it was a human instead of a fictional alien.

 

Really? is this what society has come to? are we seriously trying to consider the feelings of a fictional race of aliens has the PC bullshit finally taken the slippery slope to imaginary species? how do you have the time or energy to care, actually know what you have failed if god exists he failed in the creation of man this post is proof.

 

you can not stereotype a fictional creation its made up.

 

your not racist against a species i am not a racist for hating spiders.

 

**** it i'm going to go live in the wilderness before humanity's head goes so far up its own ass it becomes a singularity.

 

that said i really don't know how this thread got posted.  its a very simple business decision.

 

Humanity as a whole and without exception has certain things programed to genetically recognise, like faces. the aliens need certain features to be relatable, relatable aliens means better sales, this isnt something thats an opinion or debatable its the way the brain is wired, if your not wired that way you have a severe mental disorder or brain damage to the extent you wouldn't be able to read this post anyway. Its fine to want more diversity in species but this is not a real place its a videogame ment to make the most money possible. 

 

I have seen some terrible posts on bsn but this is the one that will make me stop posting here. the level of epic dumb blew my BS fuse. goodbye bioware forums may you wallow in your own filth.

 

ps. calling someone lazy who does 80 hour work weeks in crunch is inaccurate

[straykat]

Anytime racism gets brought up in these Bioware discussions, I get stabby.

 

I haven't followed this whole conversation though. All I know is that I'm mixed raced myself and struggled with real issues growing up....It shaped me, for better or worse. I care about the subject in the real world. And yet I can't muster one iota of passion about Mass Effect "races". It's so loathesome I can't even bear it. Especially when people start hurling racist insults over fictional designs (not that I know if this has happened yet or not.. but I wouldn't be surprised). That's when I say you're way too immersed for your own good.

 

/my possibily irrelevant 2c

[Vortex13]

Really? is this what society has come to? are we seriously trying to consider the feelings of a fictional race of aliens has the PC bullshit finally taken the slippery slope to imaginary species? how do you have the time or energy to care, actually know what you have failed if god exists he failed in the creation of man this post is proof.

 

you can not stereotype a fictional creation its made up.

 

your not racist against a species i am not a racist for hating spiders.

 

**** it i'm going to go live in the wilderness before humanity's head goes so far up its own ass it becomes a singularity.

 

that said i really don't know how this thread got posted.  its a very simple business decision.

 

Humanity as a whole and without exception has certain things programed to genetically recognise, like faces. the aliens need certain features to be relatable, relatable aliens means better sales, this isnt something thats an opinion or debatable its the way the brain is wired, if your not wired that way you have a severe mental disorder or brain damage to the extent you wouldn't be able to read this post anyway. Its fine to want more diversity in species but this is not a real place its a videogame ment to make the most money possible. 

 

I have seen some terrible posts on bsn but this is the one that will make me stop posting here. the level of epic dumb blew my BS fuse. goodbye bioware forums may you wallow in your own filth.

 

ps. calling someone lazy who does 80 hour work weeks in crunch is inaccurate

 

 

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not advocating for fictional alien rights, nor am I the person that goes around calling others Hitler for picking the Geth over the Quarians. Heck I sided with the werewolves in Dragon Age: Origins because werewolves are awesome, and wiping out a fictional clan of Dalish is just a choice in a video game. 

 

My complaint with the two scenarios listed in my earlier post is not that it's slandering the Geth's and Hanar's rights (as if those existed), but that it's an incredibly contrived situation that would be rather 'charged' in any real world scenario; and no I am not talking about real life aliens here. Take what those two scenes imply:  minorities only matter when they conform, and broad stereotyping is funny and apply them to the modern world.  And really, I don't care about the implications of those scenes in the sense that everyone should walk on eggshells to avoid offending people. I mean, I enjoy the Ferengi in Star Trek despite the strong argument that can be made about them being based off of some blatant Jewish stereotypes.  I was merely pointing out where some of the 'racist' comments were originating from (IMO).

 

My major issue with the depiction of races like the Geth and Hanar/Elcor in subsequent titles (though mostly ME 3) is the de-evolution of their characters. Sure the Hanar never really got much in the way of depth in ME 1, but they were a straight attempt at an alien species. Likewise the Geth (in ME 2) had a nuanced approach to their very unique social structure, as well as being AI that were just fine with remaining as such. But come ME 3 and the Hanar are saddled with Blasto as their unofficial poster child, destroying what depth they had in favor of Dirty Harry memes, and the Geth become little Pinocchio wannabes. That is lazy and uninspired writing (IMO).

[Han Shot First]

 

My major issue with the depiction of races like the Geth and Hanar/Elcor in subsequent titles (though mostly ME 3) is the de-evolution of their characters. Sure the Hanar never really got much in the way of depth in ME 1, but they were a straight attempt at an alien species. Likewise the Geth (in ME 2) had a nuanced approach to their very unique social structure, as well as being AI that were just fine with remaining as such. But come ME 3 and the Hanar are saddled with Blasto as their unofficial poster child, destroying what depth they had in favor of Dirty Harry memes, and the Geth become little Pinocchio wannabes. That is lazy and uninspired writing (IMO).

 

If any of those species return, I hope they aren't used solely for comic relief. 

[Vortex13]

If any of those species return, I hope they aren't used solely for comic relief. 

 

Agreed and I would go a step further to say that I would like to see those aliens participating in a combat scenario (although I am quite sure I would be in the minority here  ). A Hanar in a firefight would work, and can be done in a way that is not ridiculous (such as octo-wielding).

 

A more supportive role, such as a dedicated medic, or an ambush specialist; naturally produced toxins and a very strong grip (Zaeed almost was strangled to death). And before anyone goes on about Hanar frailty, or lack of combat skills, consider that Jack ran around in firefights naked from the waist up, and who do people think trains the Drell as assassins?

[Ahglock]

Agreed and I would go a step further to say that I would like to see those aliens participating in a combat scenario (although I am quite sure I would be in the minority here ). A Hanar in a firefight would work, and can be done in a way that is not ridiculous (such as octo-wielding).

A more supportive role, such as a dedicated medic, or an ambush specialist; naturally produced toxins and a very strong grip (Zaeed almost was strangled to death). And before anyone goes on about Hanar frailty, or lack of combat skills, consider that Jack ran around in firefights naked from the waist up, and who do people think trains the Drell as assassins?

Yes but Jack running around like that was dumb. Hanar are a unknown enough property where I have no issues with them. Maybe they can move super fast and quiet and have almost no vital spots.