271 réponses à ce sujet

[Adam Revlan]

Let me start by saying I completely love the Dragon Age universe.

When my Inquisitor asked Bull about who Krem was and how his sexual identity worked, I always felt that Bull's responses to my Inquisitor were overly aggressive, as if he thought my inquisitor was against Krem by virtue of the questions he was asking. And you might say: "but you as the player already know all about Transgenderism, so why would you ask about it?".
Yes, I do know a lot about transgenderism in real life, but my inquisitor doesn't, this is the first time he has ever seen someone like Krem and he was just curious.

I'm not against the fact that Dragon Age: Inquisition is a very politically correct game, what I'm against is the fact that whenever the player tries to question some of that correctness, the game proceeds to bash your head in as if you are some raging homophobe.

It was so bad for me that on subsequent playthroughs, I stopped recruiting Iron Bull altogether due to the fact that I hate his character greatly now. It might seem like a bit much, but I was so aggravated by the way this was handled, Iron Bull was needlessly aggressive towards my inquisitor for simply asking a question. It's a shame considering that before Inquisition came out, I thought that Iron Bull would be one of my favorite characters, but now I have nothing but contempt for him.

And before you say anything, know that I'm gay and in no way against transgender people, I just wish that this was handled in a more sensible, less aggressive way.

[Shechinah]

Dialogue option: "Are you a woman?"

Inquisitor: "Wait, are you... I didn't realize..."

(Iron Bull talks about the Aqun-Athlok, has a bit of banter with Krem and then introduces the rest of the Chargers)

 

No needless agression triggered from the Iron Bull, in my opinion, by selecting this dialogue option.

 

Are you referring to the non-cutscene dialogue that has the option of further inquiring about this aspect of Krem's because I do not view that as agressive. I see it more as being insistant.

 

Reference: https://www.youtube....h?v=zMXP7qVNAD4

[Nefla]

I don't know about aggressive, but Iron Bull's dialogue on the subject both with Krem and with the inquisitor seem strangely over the top, awkward and defensive(?). It's almost like he's lying about the Aqun Athlok concept in order to make Krem feel accepted. I think it could have been handled better.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

To me, Bull simply explains what Krem is and, his view that Krem is in fact a man despite his female anatomy. Bull might be a bit adamant about it but, Krem is his friend, maybe they have even played so, to me it's understandable.

[nightscrawl]

I do agree that Bull's response is a bit... harsh, and I think that is one of the problems that many people had with it, the transgender issue itself aside. I do not think it is helpful to react in such a manner to someone who is simply asking a question. BUT, you can also just not pick those options; not because you don't want to hear the response, but because asking (or not asking) a question like that is also part of role play. I never take this question, just as I don't ask Krem, "Why do you pass?" in the solo dialogue. I also don't ask Leliana if she and Justinia were more than friends, or ask Dorian if he and Felix were involved. I just don't see it as appropriate for the time and place and the relationship I'm supposed to have with these people**.

 

The actual RP scenario I can see is my Inquisitor not commenting at all, as I said I would not -- I don't really recall Bull or anyone using a pronoun for Krem during the scene, so my guy's view is that Krem is a warrior woman, like Cassandra, not uncommon in Thedas -- then referring to Krem as "she" in some other instance, and then getting chewed out for it at that time. That actually seems rather more interesting to me in terms of story-telling, because that progression of confusion to explanation seems more natural: "What do you mean Krem isn't a woman? I don't get it."

 

 

 

** People on this forum may know I'm a huge Dorian-mance fan, but the timing of this dialogue is shortly after you arrive at Skyhold, even before the bonding experience of his personal quest. Additionally, he has just told you that Felix has died, so I don't think it's an appropriate question at that time.

[Mlady]

He's a bit harsh but he's also harsh if you ask him if he's Tal-Vashoth. It's just a sensitive issue for him I guess or he's tired of people asking him that about Krem who know, like the other Chargers possibly. Most likely though, I think it's because of how Tevinter treated Krem for it.

[dragondreamer]

Bull is a big mother hen when it comes to Krem, is all.

 

If you really want him to get growly, play a Vashoth who's all "we're both Qunari, yay!"  It's like approaching Solas with the "our people" business if you're Dalish.

[ComedicSociopathy]

[actionhero112]

To be fair, all the dialogue options in that segment are at least passive aggressive, or somewhat hostile. They're also super personal. 

 

I just nope out of that dialogue like a lot of people. It's not done well in my opinion. "And the rest of your crew?" has to be the most chose line through all of my playthroughs. I think they could have handled the transgender questions better, but honestly, I'm really just glad they included a transgender character.

[Mlady]

To be fair, all the dialogue options in that segment are at least passive aggressive, or somewhat hostile. They're also super personal. 

 

I just nope out of that dialogue like a lot of people. It's not done well in my opinion. "And the rest of your crew?" has to be the most chose line through all of my playthroughs. I think they could have handled the transgender questions better, but honestly, I'm really just glad they included a transgender character.

 

Remember when we ask him about Qunari? He gets rather hostile. It all makes sense now though.

 

Spoiler

He was a loyal spy until we change him and was afraid we'd uncover too much

[Ryzaki]

Bull is a big mother hen when it comes to Krem, is all.

 

If you really want him to get growly, play a Vashoth who's all "we're both Qunari, yay!"  It's like approaching Solas with the "our people" business if you're Dalish.

 

Oh god yeah I was like "damn you didn't have to bite my head off."

 

It's why I can't romance him with a qunari.

[DuskWanderer]

It was growly and annoying, but I just blame bad writing. The worst part of it, though, was that banter between IB and Cassandra about it, when Bull says "If she really wants too..."

 

When the hell has the Qun cared about individuals wanted?

[Bipster]

I don't know about aggressive, but Iron Bull's dialogue on the subject both with Krem and with the inquisitor seem strangely over the top, awkward and defensive(?). It's almost like he's lying about the Aqun Athlok concept in order to make Krem feel accepted. I think it could have been handled better.

 

I feel like that was kind of the whole point though. Bull is a liar, by his own admission, and the best liars simply stretch the truth to their advantage.

 

He twisted the truth about he Aqun Athlok to make Krem feel more "normal", so to speak. What Bull doesn't mention though, is what happens to a trans person in the Qun who's gender identity and the role they're best suited for don't match up. If Krem weren't a good soldier, if he were, let's say, a great cook, then his identity wouldn't be respected by the Qun, since only women cook under the Qun.

 

So basically, the Qunari are only accepting if it proves beneficial to them. They wouldn't want to leave a good soldier to working the kitchens. "The Qunari waste nothing" and all that.

[Adam Revlan]

I do agree that Bull's response is a bit... harsh, and I think that is one of the problems that many people had with it, the transgender issue itself aside. I do not think it is helpful to react in such a manner to someone who is simply asking a question. BUT, you can also just not pick those options; not because you don't want to hear the response, but because asking (or not asking) a question like that is also part of role play. I never take this question, just as I don't ask Krem, "Why do you pass?" in the solo dialogue. I also don't ask Leliana if she and Justinia were more than friends, or ask Dorian if he and Felix were involved. I just don't see it as appropriate for the time and place and the relationship I'm supposed to have with these people**.

 

The actual RP scenario I can see is my Inquisitor not commenting at all, as I said I would not -- I don't really recall Bull or anyone using a pronoun for Krem during the scene, so my guy's view is that Krem is a warrior woman, like Cassandra, not uncommon in Thedas -- then referring to Krem as "she" in some other instance, and then getting chewed out for it at that time. That actually seems rather more interesting to me in terms of story-telling, because that progression of confusion to explanation seems more natural: "What do you mean Krem isn't a woman? I don't get it."

 

 

 

** People on this forum may know I'm a huge Dorian-mance fan, but the timing of this dialogue is shortly after you arrive at Skyhold, even before the bonding experience of his personal quest. Additionally, he has just told you that Felix has died, so I don't think it's an appropriate question at that time.

For my Inquisitor, it was the desire to learn more about Krem as an individual as he had never met anyone who thought like him before, but as soon as he asked a question, Bull was breathing down his neck.

 

My first thought was: "Dude, back off, it was just a question."

Sad thing is up until that point, I was thinking of romancing Bull with that particular Inquisitor.

[Nefla]

I feel like that was kind of the whole point though. Bull is a liar, by his own admission, and the best liars simply stretch the truth to their advantage.

 

He twisted the truth about he Aqun Athlok to make Krem feel more "normal", so to speak. What Bull doesn't mention though, is what happens to a trans person in the Qun who's gender identity and the role they're best suited for don't match up. If Krem weren't a good soldier, if he were, let's say, a great cook, then his identity wouldn't be respected by the Qun, since only women cook under the Qun.

 

So basically, the Qunari are only accepting if it proves beneficial to them. They wouldn't want to leave a good soldier to working the kitchens. "The Qunari waste nothing" and all that.

I hope this was their intention, since it's a lot more interesting that way.

[Ryzaki]

I hope this was their intention, since it's a lot more interesting that way.

 

Honestly I thought this was how it worked. (And if someone fits a womanly role whether they want to be or not they'll be considered a woman).

[vertigomez]

Bull is a big mother hen when it comes to Krem, is all.
 
If you really want him to get growly, play a Vashoth who's all "we're both Qunari, yay!"  It's like approaching Solas with the "our people" business if you're Dalish.

This. It's Krem's business and you're, like, gossiping about him and asking all these intensely invasive and personal questions behind his back... >_____> While we as players usually want to click all the dialogue options (because they're there) IRL if someone started nosing around about my best friend I'd lose my patience pretty fast.

I'm sure Krem's had to deal with a lot of misgendering in his time, and judging from Bull's reaction to his romance with Maryden ("you need me to talk to her about...things?") Bull's probably had to field a lot of that in the past. He wants to nip the Inquisitor's lack of understanding in the bud before it hurts his friend.

It's the same with the Qunari thing. The difference between Qunari and Tal-Vashoth is a VERY SENSITIVE topic for Bull and it's all wrapped up in his PTSD from his time on Seheron, so him being all "lolno" to a Qunquisitor isn't... unexpected.

[Nefla]

Honestly I thought this was how it worked. (And if someone fits a womanly role whether they want to be or not they'll be considered a woman).

I meant Bull lying to make the Qun seem better. The gender role thing makes zero logical sense to me.

[vertigomez]

I meant Bull lying to make the Qun seem better. The gender role thing makes zero logical sense to me.

I always thought Bull's issue here was that, at this point, he's stretching the Qun to fit things he already believes. He knows Krem's a man. He knows Cassandra is a woman and a warrior. But if he puts them in vaguely Qun-shaped boxes (whether or not they fit), he can still call himself a Qunari and not succumb to the "madness" of the Tal-Vashoth, which is his greatest fear.

Just my interpretation, though.

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't know about aggressive, but Iron Bull's dialogue on the subject both with Krem and with the inquisitor seem strangely over the top, awkward and defensive(?). It's almost like he's lying about the Aqun Athlok concept in order to make Krem feel accepted. I think it could have been handled better.

Funny, it was the other way around for me. Bull's dialogue seemed alright as a response to the Inquisitor - Krem is very dear to him after all - it was the Inquisitor's stupid dialogue that irked me. A lot. It really wouldn't have been hard to phrase things a lot better, in a way that wouldn't have prompted Bull to be so defensive in the first place, but they chose not to. Whether that was intentional just so they could have Bull yell at you, or just subpar writing, I don't know. But it's bad either way.

 

Also, this won't end well.

[Ryzaki]

I meant Bull lying to make the Qun seem better. The gender role thing makes zero logical sense to me.

 

Yeah but it's been there since DAO (only women are X only men are Y.). So it's consistent stupidity if nothing else.

 

But yeah Bull lies through his teeth and stretches the truth. I can see him doing some bending with the Qun.
 

[Nefla]

Funny, it was the other way around for me. Bull's dialogue seemed alright as a response to the Inquisitor - Krem is very dear to him after all - it was the Inquisitor's stupid dialogue that irked me. A lot. It really wouldn't have been hard to phrase things a lot better, in a way that wouldn't have prompted Bull to be so defensive in the first place, but they chose not to. Whether that was intentional just so they could have Bull yell at you, or just subpar writing, I don't know. But it's bad either way.

 

Also, this won't end well.

Oh I never choose the inquisitor's stupid questions, I meant the part where Bull just starts explaining Aqun Athlok like "look how awesome the Qun is!" You don't even have to ask any questions for that to happen.

[trevelyan_shep]

I found it a bit aggressive too, especially if the Inquisitor knows nothing about transgenderism. However, since Bull is really close with Krem it could seem as though the Inquisitor's intentions may not be very pure or so he may think.

[BansheeOwnage]

Oh I never choose the inquisitor's stupid questions, I meant the part where Bull just starts explaining Aqun Athlok like "look how awesome the Qun is!" You don't even have to ask any questions for that to happen.

The completionist in me always wants to ask every question. It's frustrating when they're phrased so stupidly. They could have just written it more neutrally, but noooo...

[Lumix19]

It was growly and annoying, but I just blame bad writing. The worst part of it, though, was that banter between IB and Cassandra about it, when Bull says "If she really wants too..."

When the hell has the Qun cared about individuals wanted?

"It is not my role to reject the free choice of Viddathari".