I'm breaking this up because I was getting confused as to what I was responding to....
He would be making a comment about her appearance in that case since that is what he referenced. But it's as I wrote; he was making a statement about the "logic" of the situation. He was discussing his rationale. A warrior cannot be a woman. The implication is that if the Warden is a warrior/woman, then she can't possibly be a woman/warrior. Like saying, "You are pregnant. Therefore it follows that you cannot be a man." He isn't saying what the F!Warden definitely is, he's telling her his perspective of the topic of fighting as a warrior and who can do it. Only men can be warriors. So if the F!Warden is a warrior, then she can't possibly be a woman. But she looks like a woman, and she is a woman. So she can't possibly be a warrior. What you aren't recognizing in this debate is that the Qun defines gender based on biological sex, not abilities. So the F!Warden is definitely female, and therefore definitely not a warrior under the Qun's "logic".
Gender is based on biological sex rather than abilities? According to whom?
It's rather clear that gender can be determined by the role one is placed in. If you are assigned to the Antaam, you are a man. Your biological sex could be female, but if you are assigned to the Antaam, you must be a man. This is the issue. Sten recognizes F!Warden as a warrior(which, in his mind, is a member of the Antaam). This makes F!Warden a man. Sten is saying F!Warden cannot be a woman, because she is a warrior... You are failing to recognize that Sten never calls F!Warden a woman. He never even recognizes that F!Warden is a woman. Sten just says that F!Warden looks like a woman, and seems to want to know why. Presumably, the biologically female in the Antaam alter their appearance to look more like a biological male.
I don't need to prove that because my claim does not hinge on the Qun accepting a female as a warrior. You're just demanding I prove something irrelevant to this discussion. I demand you prove that volcanoes can spew bubblegum. See? I can make unreasonable demands too. But I will demand you prove your claim that "warrior" is synonymous with "man". It isn't. I agree that all warriors under the Qun are men, but that is not what defines a man, which is what you're inferring here by claiming that Sten sees the F!Warden as a man simply because he allegedly recognizes her as a warrior. As for Shale, Sten can be made aware of Shale being female. She can even hint at physical attraction toward him. Yet he still compliments Shale's fighting abilities.
It's not about what defines a man. It's about what defines a warrior. I'm not inferring that Sten recognizes F!Warden as a man simply by recognizing her as a warrior. I'm outright stating that... All warriors under the Qun are men. You agree with that. So how can Sten recognize someone as a woman if he recognizes them to be a warrior? You are claiming that Sten recognizes both of F!Warden(that Sten sees F!Warden as a warrior, and a woman, and trying to reconcile it), when it's clearly not the case. Even after their conversation. In order to claim that, you need to prove that there has been a someone the Qun recognized as female who is also recognized as a warrior... In fact, you don't even need to prove that... You just need to prove that Sten says F!Warden is a woman...
What Sten is trying to reconciles is the idea that F!Warden thinks she is a woman, when she clearly isn't(again, due to being a warrior).
Just because Shale hints at physical attraction to Sten doesn't mean Sten recognizes Shale as a woman. Sten could just see Shale as a homosexual(either way, Sten doesn't respond to the hinted attraction). Sten recognizes Shale as a warrior. Thus Shale is a man.
What you claim contradicts the Qun. If it were that easy to redefine your gender, then any male could just start preaching, and thus become a female. But as Sten says, a woman cannot become a man. Which means, gender cannot be changed. Nor can one's station in life. You are born with your gender, you do not choose that. Sten does not see the F!Warden as male, and he has no authority to believe she is either gender. Her gender is defined by physical fact. His opinion has nothing to do with it.
Women are priests. That doesn't mean only women are priests(Ben-Hassrath are considered priests. Both male and female Qunari can be Ben-Hassrath). Even so, just because a male is preaching doesn't mean said male is a preacher to begin with. And you are right. A woman can't become a man. Gender can't be changed. Nor can one's station in life.
But you are also wrong. You are born, and then you are given your station and gender. Sten sees F!Warden as a warrior, thus he sees F!Warden as a man.
Sten isn't asking any question there. He's stating his opinion of warriors and who can be one. It doesn't matter how Sten phrases it, the intent is the same as it was for the other women. I am not ignoring the statements before and after the "Women are..." speech, I am pointing out that the speech itself proves the intent is the same for all four women.
The intent of each speech to Wynne, Leliana, and Morrigan is the same. With F!Warden, the intent is different. Again, you are ignoring the statements before and after each speech because with each speech, the statements before and after demonstrate what he thinks the listener is. "Women are priests, shopkeepers, and farmers. Women do not fight." To Leliana, Wynne, and Morrigan, he's informing them that he sees them as women. He starts with "Why are you here?" Asking why they are with the group and attempting to fight darkspawn, when they are women and do not fight. With F!Warden, Sten starts with "You are a Grey Warden, if follows you are not a woman." Sten is telling F!Warden that she cannot be a woman, because a Grey warden is not a priest, shopkeeper or farmer. A Grey Warden fights.
I mean... You do realize that Sten gives F!Warden the "women are..." speech immediately after being asked "Why can't I be a woman?" right? He's literally saying F!Warden cannot be a woman, because F!Warden is a Grey Warden, and not in one of those other roles designated for women.
Qunari men don't wish to be women. They preach, therefore Qunari men are women. That's your claim of the Qun's logic, is it not? Any man can just get right up and start preaching, and poof, he's a woman. Right?
No. Again, both men and women can be priests. Just as picking up a sword doesn't make one a warrior, just because someone preaches, it doesn't make them a preacher...
My claim of the Qun's logic is this: Qunari men don't wish to be women. A Temassran is a woman, and her penis isn't relevant to what she is.
Since Sten already knows the "truth", that means only the F!Warden has a chance of seeing the "truth". Hence, he would have said, "You'll see", or "Perhaps you'll see."
I've come to the conclusion that you're probably right on this. I still disagree that Sten is open to the possibility that women wish to fight(or can fight)... But Sten is saying "we'll see" because he may be incorrect. Sten likely recognizes that his "explanation" of the Qun may be inaccurate. Due to the fact that he's a warrior, and not a priest. The Qun is infallible. Sten isn't.
I didn't ignore it. I answered it. His statement was not definitive of the F!Warden. He was merely explaining the "logic" of being a warrior and who could be one. Whether Sten calls her a woman or not is irrelevant. She is in fact a woman, according to biology. Therefore the Qun dictates that she is not a warrior. Under the Qun she would be reeducated to be a priest, artisans, farmer, etc. It is completely absurd to believe that a FEMALE who can fight would be reeducated under the Qun to think she's a man. Absolutely nuts.
Of course his statement is definitive... F!Warden asks why she can't be a woman, and Sten tells her why. F!Warden is not in the role of a woman, thus she cannot be one.
It is completely absurd to believe that there's a female who can fight. Anyone placed into the Antaam is a warrior(and thus male). If said warrior had claimed to be a woman, that would be the issue. And that is what the reeducation would fix. There would be no need to remove "a woman" from the Antaam and place her in a different role, because there are no women in the Antaam.
I acknowledge that is what you think, but your side doesn't. And I know you wrote nothing about Hissrad, Krem, or aqun-athlok before this, which is why I wrote "your SIDE", not "YOU" specifically. Your side believes that Hissrad proved with his claims that someone of one gender, a female for example, could believe herself to be a man and live as the other gender, and that the Qun accepts this female as a real man. However, in the case of the F!Warden (which is what you and I are debating) she never claims to be a man. She does not want to be seen as the other gender, nor does she identify as the other gender. She claims to be her actual gender, unlike these alleged aqun-athlok who supposedly claim to be the other gender. That is why I wrote that you contradict what your side believes about what Hissrad said regarding aqun-athlok.
... If I disagree with the position you claim "my side" holds, how can it be "my side"?
As I said, the Qun won't accept someone as aqun-athlok unless their gender identity already conforms to the role in which they have been assigned. A man, placed in the Antaam, identifying as a woman won't be accepted. Neither would a woman, in the role of a Temassran, identifying as a man. Both would be reeducated to identify as their "correct" gender. But a man, in the role of a Temassran, identifying as a woman(and a woman identifying as a man in the Antaam) would be accepted... Someone in the Priesthood? The possible need for reeducation is likely determined by other factors.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here.
Look, if a woman fighting doesn't make her a warrior, then a man preaching doesn't make him a preacher. The Qun is clear that the fields of "warrior" or "priest" have gender requirements.
So the bottom line is how gender is determined.
Birth.
If you are born male, you can't possibly be a priest.
If you are born female, you can't possibly be a warrior.
Wishing it to be so can lead only to frustration.
One gender cannot become the other. Living on the moon is as attainable.
This is the Qun.
To the bolded: As Illegitumus stated above... Gender is determined the same way occupation is determined.
I starting to believe that this whole issue might stem from a difference of opinion on the differences between "Gender" and "sex"...
Modifié par AshenEndymion, 01 novembre 2015 - 01:42 .
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