271 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

I'm breaking this up because I was getting confused as to what I was responding to....

 

 

Gender is based on biological sex rather than abilities?  According to whom?

 

It's rather clear that gender can be determined by the role one is placed in.  If you are assigned to the Antaam, you are a man.  Your biological sex could be female, but if you are assigned to the Antaam, you must be a man.  This is the issue.  Sten recognizes F!Warden as a warrior(which, in his mind, is a member of the Antaam).  This makes F!Warden a man.  Sten is saying F!Warden cannot be a woman, because she is a warrior...  You are failing to recognize that Sten never calls F!Warden a woman.  He never even recognizes that F!Warden is a woman.  Sten just says that F!Warden looks like a woman, and seems to want to know why.  Presumably, the biologically female in the Antaam alter their appearance to look more like a biological male.

 

 

 

It's not about what defines a man.  It's about what defines a warrior.  I'm not inferring that Sten recognizes F!Warden as a man simply by recognizing her as a warrior.  I'm outright stating that...  All warriors under the Qun are men.  You agree with that.  So how can Sten recognize someone as a woman if he recognizes them to be a warrior?  You are claiming that Sten recognizes both of F!Warden(that Sten sees F!Warden as a warrior, and a woman, and trying to reconcile it), when it's clearly not the case.  Even after their conversation.  In order to claim that, you need to prove that there has been a someone the Qun recognized as female who is also recognized as a warrior...  In fact, you don't even need to prove that... You just need to prove that Sten says F!Warden is a woman...

 

What Sten is trying to reconciles is the idea that F!Warden thinks she is a woman, when she clearly isn't(again, due to being a warrior).

 

Just because Shale hints at physical attraction to Sten doesn't mean Sten recognizes Shale as a woman.  Sten could just see Shale as a homosexual(either way, Sten doesn't respond to the hinted attraction).  Sten recognizes Shale as a warrior.  Thus Shale is a man.

 

 

 

Women are priests.  That doesn't mean only women are priests(Ben-Hassrath are considered priests.  Both male and female Qunari can be Ben-Hassrath).  Even so, just because a male is preaching doesn't mean said male is a preacher to begin with.   And you are right.  A woman can't become a man.  Gender can't be changed.  Nor can one's station in life.

 

But you are also wrong.  You are born, and then you are given your station and gender.  Sten sees F!Warden as a warrior, thus he sees F!Warden as a man.

 

 

 

The intent of each speech to Wynne, Leliana, and Morrigan is the same.  With F!Warden, the intent is different.  Again, you are ignoring the statements before and after each speech because with each speech, the statements before and after demonstrate what he thinks the listener is.  "Women are priests, shopkeepers, and farmers.  Women do not fight."  To Leliana, Wynne, and Morrigan, he's informing them that he sees them as women.  He starts with "Why are you here?"  Asking why they are with the group and attempting to fight darkspawn, when they are women and do not fight.  With F!Warden, Sten starts with "You are a Grey Warden, if follows you are not a woman."  Sten is telling F!Warden that she cannot be a woman, because a Grey warden is not a priest, shopkeeper or farmer.  A Grey Warden fights.

 

I mean... You do realize that Sten gives F!Warden the "women are..." speech immediately after being asked "Why can't I be a woman?" right?  He's literally saying F!Warden cannot be a woman, because F!Warden is a Grey Warden, and not in one of those other roles designated for women.

 

 

No.  Again, both men and women can be priests. Just as picking up a sword doesn't make one a warrior, just because someone preaches, it doesn't make them a preacher...

 

My claim of the Qun's logic is this: Qunari men don't wish to be women.  A Temassran is a woman, and her penis isn't relevant to what she is.

 

 

 

I've come to the conclusion that you're probably right on this.  I still disagree that Sten is open to the possibility that women wish to fight(or can fight)... But Sten is saying "we'll see" because he may be incorrect.  Sten likely recognizes that his "explanation" of the Qun may be inaccurate.  Due to the fact that he's a warrior, and not a priest.  The Qun is infallible.  Sten isn't.

 

 

 

Of course his statement is definitive...  F!Warden asks why she can't be a woman, and Sten tells her why.  F!Warden is not in the role of a woman, thus she cannot be one.

 

It is completely absurd to believe that there's a female who can fight.  Anyone placed into the Antaam is a warrior(and thus male).  If said warrior had claimed to be a woman, that would be the issue.  And that is what the reeducation would fix.  There would be no need to remove "a woman" from the Antaam and place her in a different role, because there are no women in the Antaam.

 

 

... If I disagree with the position you claim "my side" holds, how can it be "my side"?

 

As I said, the Qun won't accept someone as aqun-athlok unless their gender identity already conforms to the role in which they have been assigned.  A man, placed in the Antaam, identifying as a woman won't be accepted.  Neither would a woman, in the role of a Temassran, identifying as a man.  Both would be reeducated to identify as their "correct" gender.  But a man, in the role of a Temassran, identifying as a woman(and a woman identifying as a man in the Antaam) would be accepted...  Someone in the Priesthood?  The possible need for reeducation is likely determined by other factors.

 

 

To the bolded:  As Illegitumus stated above... Gender is determined the same way occupation is determined.

 

I starting to believe that this whole issue might stem from a difference of opinion on the differences between "Gender" and "sex"...

 

According to logic, science, and intellectual reasoning. The Qunari are practical. They exalt truth and enlightenment. They observe a newborn's genitalia and identify that child as that sex and gender, for that is what the child was born as. Inborn traits cannot be chosen or changed, according to Sten, they simply are.

 

The Qunari don't assign "someone" to the antaam, they assign only men to the antaam. You have to be a man first in order to be assigned to the antaam, and beyond that you need to be strong, fast, skilled, coordinated, and all the other things that make a man a warrior.

 

Repeating the same baseless theory over and over won't help. You think Sten sees the F!Warden as a man simply because he recognizes the fact that she fights, but I disagree and you have no proof. He never calls her a man, nor does he suggest he sees her as one. I understand your position, and I think it's wrong. I think we can skip discussing this part.

 

The same way he recognizes Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne. He sees them as women who fight and should not be fighting.

 

*Sigh*

 

Proof that Sten refers to the F!Warden as female eh?

 

Fine. After hours of replaying with one of my non-canon female human mages, I have found an example of Sten referring to the F!Warden as an F!Warden. This is after giving him his sword back.

 

Sten: I had almost forgotten it. Completion.

 

Sten: Are you sure you are a Grey Warden? I think you must be an ashkaari to find a single lost blade in a country at war.

 

You're welcome, Sten.

 

Sten: I would thank you for this, if I knew how.

 

Sten: And I could deliver a much more satisfying answer to the arishok's question if the Blight were ended, don't you agree?

 

So you're staying, then?

 

Sten: I am one of the Beresaad. I have never abandoned the field with the battle unmet.

 

I'm glad to have you, Sten.

 

Sten: Yes, it isn't every Grey Warden who has her own beresaad.

 

Sten: I will see you reach the archdemon. Lead the way.

 

...

 

So, we done here?

 

As for the point about gender. I think in order to determine who can be a Temassran or a Warrior, you would first need a base standard for what is a man or woman. If only a woman can be a Temassran, then you first need to be able to identify females. Obviously they would do this based on gender sex. And if any man could be considered a woman, and thus a Temassran, then it defeats the entire point of having genders and gender based roles.

 

Do you really think the Qunari will create loopholes that actually ignore the person's physical sex in order to get around rules on gender roles? Especially when easier loopholes exist in either redefining what a fighting female does (in the case of a tallis), or just create a new but similar position and role that accommodates the other gender?

 

It's still your side because you believe in the same theory, that the Qun accepts transgenders as aqun-athlok, and consider them the gender they think they are so long as they fulfill the role. The problem is that you're trying to apply that theory to an F!Warden who, unlike Krem, can be a warrior and does not consider herself to be a man.

 

It is ludicrous to conclude that a viddathari would reeducate a biological female to think she is a man if that female is a warrior. The reeducation would be applied to make someone accept the gender sex they were born with. Thus the biological female would be reeducated to not be a warrior. And if that reeducation doesn't take, they will push her head to the qamek and turn her into a worker drone. Then she can't fight, and is thus not a warrior.

[AshenEndymion]

According to logic, science, and intellectual reasoning. The Qunari are practical. They exalt truth and enlightenment. They observe a newborn's genitalia and identify that child as that sex and gender, for that is what the child was born as. Inborn traits cannot be chosen or changed, according to Sten, they simply are.

 

The role of a person is given a person based on what they are capable of doing.  It is silly to give a person the role of farmer if they do not show any ability to farm.  But a role is also a trait that cannot be chosen or changed, according to Sten, one simply is their role.

 

Your argument is that the Qunari, a practical people, would assign a role at birth, rather than wait to determine what a child is capable of doing before assigning said role.  They wouldn't do this, because it would be impractical.   If a biologically female child is exceptional at swinging a sword and all the other aspects of being a warrior, but incapable of "priesting"(everything else related to what a priest does), shopkeeping, or farming, they would be declared male, and placed in the Antaam.  It would be a waste to do anything else.

 

 

The Qunari don't assign "someone" to the antaam, they assign only men to the antaam. You have to be a man first in order to be assigned to the antaam, and beyond that you need to be strong, fast, skilled, coordinated, and all the other things that make a man a warrior.

 

Yes.  And if someone is assigned to the Antaam, they are a man.  Biological sex is ignored.  You have to be capable of fighting, first, in order to be assigned to the Antaam.  Beyond that, you need to be strong, fast, skilled, coordinated, and all other things that makes up a warrior.  And if you are a warrior, you are a man.

 

 

The same way he recognizes Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne. He sees them as women who fight and should not be fighting.

 

He sees Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne as woman who are trying to fight, and should not be trying to do so(women do not fight).

 

 

*Sigh*

 

Proof that Sten refers to the F!Warden as female eh?

 

Fine. After hours of replaying with one of my non-canon female human mages, I have found an example of Sten referring to the F!Warden as an F!Warden. This is after giving him his sword back.

 

Sten: I had almost forgotten it. Completion.

 

Sten: Are you sure you are a Grey Warden? I think you must be an ashkaari to find a single lost blade in a country at war.

 

You're welcome, Sten.

 

Sten: I would thank you for this, if I knew how.

 

Sten: And I could deliver a much more satisfying answer to the arishok's question if the Blight were ended, don't you agree?

 

So you're staying, then?

 

Sten: I am one of the Beresaad. I have never abandoned the field with the battle unmet.

 

I'm glad to have you, Sten.

 

Sten: Yes, it isn't every Grey Warden who has her own beresaad.

 

Sten: I will see you reach the archdemon. Lead the way.

 

...

 

So, we done here?

 

Problem:  Sten, in the same conversation, says he believes F!Warden to be an Ashkaari.  A priest.  Therefore, F!Warden's gender identity is irrelevant.  

 

Regardless, later in the game, Sten has an "I have been mistaken" conversation if you speak to him in camp just before going to the point of no return at Redcliffe.  When telling Sten you are not a soldier, he replies "I know."

 

Sten agrees to help you when you release him from the cage, because you claim to be a Grey Warden.  And from what Sten seems to know, Grey Wardens are warriors of great renown.  But over the course of the game, he comes to the conclusion that Grey Wardens aren't warriors.   The HOF and Alistair destroy any illusions of that.  Instead, the Sten seems to determine that Grey Wardens are equivalent to the Qunari priesthood.  Sten doesn't change his view that F!Warden is a warrior who is also a woman, he has changed his view that F!Warden was ever a warrior to begin with...

 

 

As for the point about gender. I think in order to determine who can be a Temassran or a Warrior, you would first need a base standard for what is a man or woman. If only a woman can be a Temassran, then you first need to be able to identify females. Obviously they would do this based on gender sex. And if any man could be considered a woman, and thus a Temassran, then it defeats the entire point of having genders and gender based roles.

 

In order to determine who can be a Temassran or Warrior, you must first need a base standard as to what each of those roles do.  Again, it's not a matter of "can be".  It's a matter of "is/are".  One does not choose their role, it is chosen for them.  The same is true of gender.  To place someone in a role in which they are ill-suited would be anathema to the Qun, all that would follow would be reeducation, over and over.  If someone with a penis was suited to be a Temassran, they would be a woman(not considered to be, be).  The penis is irrelevant to what their role is.

 

 

Do you really think the Qunari will create loopholes that actually ignore the person's physical sex in order to get around rules on gender roles? Especially when easier loopholes exist in either redefining what a fighting female does (in the case of a tallis), or just create a new but similar position and role that accommodates the other gender?

 

The Qunari have created many loopholes.  Why think there isn't one regarding gender and physical sex when there seems to be one on practically everything else?  There is no loophole with Tallis being a "fighting female" because Tallis isn't a "fighting female".  Tallis is a priesting priest.  She isn't fighting because that is what the Antaam does.  Instead, Tallis is "interpreting the Qun" or some other random explanation of what priests actually do in the Qun.

 

But Tallis would not be in that role, if she were incapable of doing the all of the other things required of being a priest.  If a biological female were only capable of fighting, and had no skills toward priesthood, farming, or shopkeeping, then there would be only two options left to do with her: turning her into a mindless drone, or declaring her a man and placing him in the Antaam.  The Qunari waste nothing unnecessarily.  If said biological female agreed that she was a man, then making her into a mindless drone would be the waste in resources...

 

 

It's still your side because you believe in the same theory, that the Qun accepts transgenders as aqun-athlok, and consider them the gender they think they are so long as they fulfill the role. The problem is that you're trying to apply that theory to an F!Warden who, unlike Krem, can be a warrior and does not consider herself to be a man.

 

Let me see if I understand this... You are making the claim that Sten would have prattled on about how "F!Warden is a Warden, so it follows he can't be a woman" if F!Warden claimed to be a man at the outset?  Because that is what you are implying if you are denying the idea that the Qun accepts transgenders, so long as they consider themselves to be the correct gender for their role...  Then again, at the same time, you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how that conversation would have continued because F!Warden didn't say she was a man, so the Qun couldn't be accepting of transgenders...  I'm confused... What, exactly, is your stance?

 

I am not trying to apply the scenario to F!Warden.  I'm saying it was already applied.  Sten wants F!Warden to understand that her gender identity doesn't conform with her role.  At the time, her role is that of a Warden.  A Warrior.  But ultimately, over the course of the game, Sten comes to the conclusion that F!Warden is not actually warrior(Or, more accurately in his mind, "a member of the Antaam").  Thus her gender identity, and it's contradiction, ceases to be an issue.

 

It is ludicrous to conclude that a viddathari would reeducate a biological female to think she is a man if that female is a warrior. The reeducation would be applied to make someone accept the gender sex they were born with. Thus the biological female would be reeducated to not be a warrior. And if that reeducation doesn't take, they will push her head to the qamek and turn her into a worker drone. Then she can't fight, and is thus not a warrior.

 

But that would be a complete waste of resources.  It's far more ludicrous to think that the Qunari would waste a perfectly good resource if they can gain something from it.  If, after evaluating a biological female's capabilities, the Temassrans place her into the Antaam, then she is a man.  There would be no need to reeducate a soldier into thinking he was a farmer.  Because that would be beyond stupid(A soldier can't be a farmer, after all).  The only thing needed to be reeducated would be the determination of a soldier thinking he was a woman.  If that didn't hold, then said soldier would be turned into a worker drone.  Because said soldier would have proven to be a waste of a soldier.

 

But if a Temassran were to place said biological female into the Antaam, they have already determined that she would have been a waste of a priest, or farmer, or shopkeeper, or artisan.  The Temassrans would have determined that said biological female would have been turned into a worker drone after being placed in any of those roles because she was incapable of doing them adequately.  So the only way to ensure that the Qun received something from the abilities of said biological female, would be declare her a man, and place him into the Antaam.  The Qunari are practical.

[General TSAR]

At OP: I just wrote it off as poor writing, but yeah that is kinda hamfisted.

I'm not against the fact that Dragon Age: Inquisition is a very politically correct game, 

Therein lies the problem.

 

Origins also had political correctness, but it was more subtle and there was plenty of grittiness to balance it.

[In Exile]

At OP: I just wrote it off as poor writing, but yeah that is kinda hamfisted.
Therein lies the problem.

Origins also had political correctness, but it was more subtle and there was plenty of grittiness to balance it.

Not really. It had some bizarre sexism and homophobia - and I say bizarre because it actively contradicted the lore - but otherwise it was the same setting.

[Illegitimus]

Not really. It had some bizarre sexism and homophobia - and I say bizarre because it actively contradicted the lore - but otherwise it was the same setting.

 

I don't agree that it contradicted the lore.  And therefore I don't agree that it was bizarre.  

[Dai Grepher]

The role of a person is given a person based on what they are capable of doing.  It is silly to give a person the role of farmer if they do not show any ability to farm.  But a role is also a trait that cannot be chosen or changed, according to Sten, one simply is their role.

 

Your argument is that the Qunari, a practical people, would assign a role at birth, rather than wait to determine what a child is capable of doing before assigning said role.  They wouldn't do this, because it would be impractical.   If a biologically female child is exceptional at swinging a sword and all the other aspects of being a warrior, but incapable of "priesting"(everything else related to what a priest does), shopkeeping, or farming, they would be declared male, and placed in the Antaam.  It would be a waste to do anything else.

 

 

 

Yes.  And if someone is assigned to the Antaam, they are a man.  Biological sex is ignored.  You have to be capable of fighting, first, in order to be assigned to the Antaam.  Beyond that, you need to be strong, fast, skilled, coordinated, and all other things that makes up a warrior.  And if you are a warrior, you are a man.

 

 

 

He sees Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne as woman who are trying to fight, and should not be trying to do so(women do not fight).

 

 

 

Problem:  Sten, in the same conversation, says he believes F!Warden to be an Ashkaari.  A priest.  Therefore, F!Warden's gender identity is irrelevant.  

 

Regardless, later in the game, Sten has an "I have been mistaken" conversation if you speak to him in camp just before going to the point of no return at Redcliffe.  When telling Sten you are not a soldier, he replies "I know."

 

Sten agrees to help you when you release him from the cage, because you claim to be a Grey Warden.  And from what Sten seems to know, Grey Wardens are warriors of great renown.  But over the course of the game, he comes to the conclusion that Grey Wardens aren't warriors.   The HOF and Alistair destroy any illusions of that.  Instead, the Sten seems to determine that Grey Wardens are equivalent to the Qunari priesthood.  Sten doesn't change his view that F!Warden is a warrior who is also a woman, he has changed his view that F!Warden was ever a warrior to begin with...

 

 

 

In order to determine who can be a Temassran or Warrior, you must first need a base standard as to what each of those roles do.  Again, it's not a matter of "can be".  It's a matter of "is/are".  One does not choose their role, it is chosen for them.  The same is true of gender.  To place someone in a role in which they are ill-suited would be anathema to the Qun, all that would follow would be reeducation, over and over.  If someone with a penis was suited to be a Temassran, they would be a woman(not considered to be, be).  The penis is irrelevant to what their role is.

 

 

 

The Qunari have created many loopholes.  Why think there isn't one regarding gender and physical sex when there seems to be one on practically everything else?  There is no loophole with Tallis being a "fighting female" because Tallis isn't a "fighting female".  Tallis is a priesting priest.  She isn't fighting because that is what the Antaam does.  Instead, Tallis is "interpreting the Qun" or some other random explanation of what priests actually do in the Qun.

 

But Tallis would not be in that role, if she were incapable of doing the all of the other things required of being a priest.  If a biological female were only capable of fighting, and had no skills toward priesthood, farming, or shopkeeping, then there would be only two options left to do with her: turning her into a mindless drone, or declaring her a man and placing him in the Antaam.  The Qunari waste nothing unnecessarily.  If said biological female agreed that she was a man, then making her into a mindless drone would be the waste in resources...

 

 

 

Let me see if I understand this... You are making the claim that Sten would have prattled on about how "F!Warden is a Warden, so it follows he can't be a woman" if F!Warden claimed to be a man at the outset?  Because that is what you are implying if you are denying the idea that the Qun accepts transgenders, so long as they consider themselves to be the correct gender for their role...  Then again, at the same time, you seem to be saying that it doesn't matter how that conversation would have continued because F!Warden didn't say she was a man, so the Qun couldn't be accepting of transgenders...  I'm confused... What, exactly, is your stance?

 

I am not trying to apply the scenario to F!Warden.  I'm saying it was already applied.  Sten wants F!Warden to understand that her gender identity doesn't conform with her role.  At the time, her role is that of a Warden.  A Warrior.  But ultimately, over the course of the game, Sten comes to the conclusion that F!Warden is not actually warrior(Or, more accurately in his mind, "a member of the Antaam").  Thus her gender identity, and it's contradiction, ceases to be an issue.

 

 

But that would be a complete waste of resources.  It's far more ludicrous to think that the Qunari would waste a perfectly good resource if they can gain something from it.  If, after evaluating a biological female's capabilities, the Temassrans place her into the Antaam, then she is a man.  There would be no need to reeducate a soldier into thinking he was a farmer.  Because that would be beyond stupid(A soldier can't be a farmer, after all).  The only thing needed to be reeducated would be the determination of a soldier thinking he was a woman.  If that didn't hold, then said soldier would be turned into a worker drone.  Because said soldier would have proven to be a waste of a soldier.

 

But if a Temassran were to place said biological female into the Antaam, they have already determined that she would have been a waste of a priest, or farmer, or shopkeeper, or artisan.  The Temassrans would have determined that said biological female would have been turned into a worker drone after being placed in any of those roles because she was incapable of doing them adequately.  So the only way to ensure that the Qun received something from the abilities of said biological female, would be declare her a man, and place him into the Antaam.  The Qunari are practical.

 

Capable. Females are not capable of being warriors under the Qun. So they would never be considered for the role. And if kids are never considered for anything until they start showing their talents, then it means the Tamassrans do not think of them in terms of gender until they show their talents. In which case there would be no need for recognition of gender at all, since gender does not actually determine role but rather skill does. Thus no need to assign a gender requirement to any role. Yet we know that there is because the Temassrans also select whom will mate with whom. So would a female Tallis ever be selected to mate with a "male" Sten if that Sten is biologically female? Or would two Stens be selected to mate with each other even though both are recognized as male? Or are the biologically female "male" warriors never selected for mating? You can't logically say the Qun ignores gender and sex in one example but not the other.
 

No, my argument is that the Qunari, a practical people, would recognize genitalia at birth to indicate whether a child is male or female, and would then raise each child to assume a role or roles pertaining to their biological sex. Gender sex isn't a role, it's a fact. It is one of those things that Sten says "simply are".

 

But they aren't a man because they are assigned to the antaam. They must be a man before being assigned to the antaam. In order to fight you must be a male first, because females don't fight. What you're doing is assigning the role to the female so that she can fulfill the prerequisite. Putting the cart before the horse. Or ox, in this case.

 

Sten sees the F!Warden the same way as M, L, and W.

 

*Sigh* No, he doesn't really think she is an ashkaari. He's making a statement about how incredible it is that she found a single lost sword in a large, chaotic country. And you're clearly ignoring the relevant statement, which is "Yes, it isn't every Grey Warden who has her own baresaad."

 

Even taking your claim about what Sten says pre-Redcliffe as true, if he says "I know" to the statement that she is not a warrior, then it proves my point. Sten sees her as a woman, not a warrior.

 

Sten says Grey Wardens are renowned for being great strategists and warriors. Perhaps he believed an F!Warden to be a strategist while in his cage. Whatever the case, he does observe that the F!Warden fights. So his opinion would be that the F!Warden is a female who should not be fighting. He would have the same view of Krem. And as for aqun-athlok, if that is even a real thing and not just a lie from Hissrad, then Krem would be considered aqun-athlok and reeducated to embrace being female.

 

Okay, and what makes the skill requirement more important a basis than gender sex requirement? I claim both are needed. You claim the skill requirement is the only one needed, as the skill defines the gender sex. Which leads me back to my point. If skill is the only requirement, then there is no need for gender or gender roles. One does not choose their role, but then again, no one does. They are born into it. People are born with gender sex. Gender is only "chosen" by fate/destiny. It falls into the same category as "the size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish" etc. If male genitalia is irrelevant to the Temassran's role, then female genitalia should also be irrelevant to the warrior's role. Yes? So then why does Sten say, "You look like a woman"? Why does he question M, L, and W? Why doesn't he just see them all as male? After all, how they look is irrelevant. They are all men based on their role. Right?

 

Oh? What other loopholes have they created exactly? I don't think they would create a loophole that ignores gender because that would be to ignore the spirit and letter of the law. If females are not meant to be warriors, then it is that way for a reason, and the Qunari should not try to circumvent this law by creating a loophole so that biological females can be warriors. Otherwise the rule is worthless and ineffective. And if gender was always determined by role, then how did the gender restriction come about in the first place?

 

As I understood it, a "tallis" is an assassin. She doesn't fight like a warrior. She strikes as one without a warrior's honor. She is a sneak who is underhanded and devious. Also, even the Temassrans can fight in a certain way. One of them fought Isabella. Viddasala tried to spear Solas. Heck, even "Ben-Hassrath Agent" can be a longsword wielding woman (though this might just be evidence that Viddasala and her agents were Tal-Vashoth). But whatever the case, if Tallis can "interpret the Qun" then why can't these other females? Why is redefining their gender the loophole when a better one already exists?

 

Felicia Day's Tallis knows nothing of the priesthood though. So that theory is false.

 

Sten's conversation with F!Warden would have been different had she claimed to be a man, but the bottom line would have been the same. If she had said, "Well, I'm not a woman", then Sten would have either said, "You obviously are", or "Then why do you look like a woman". If Sten were talking to Krem, and were able to determine that Krem was a biological female, Sten would have give the "Why would a woman wish to be a man? That makes no sense" speech.

 

I don't understand how you can't know my position by now. It is that the Qunari identify a male or female based on their biological sex. They then raise or educate them to fulfill their respective gender roles. They measure their skills toward any of the roles designated to their respective gender sex. They place them in the role best suited to them based on their gender and skills. Any who wish to be the opposite gender, either by claiming to be that gender or by trying to act in one of the opposite gender's roles, are reeducated. If the reeducation does not take, then are brainwashed by the qamek and turned into laborers. A woman who thinks she can fight, or thinks she is a man would not be tolerated. So no, the Qunari do not tolerate transgenders.

 

*Sigh* You aren't trying to apply the scenario to the F!Warden, it was already applied. That's exactly what I wrote you were doing in my previous post. And if you think the contradiction resolves because Sten concludes Grey Wardens are not warriors, then what about the fact that the F!Warden still fights? That can't be resolved or ignored. And just what exactly causes Sten to think that the F!Warden doesn't fight? Can you quote this conversation you're referencing?

 

It would not be a waste of resources according to the Qun. The woman cannot be a warrior, just as she cannot be a man. Allowing her to continue as one would be the waste in resources. As a mindless worker she serves a valuable purpose within her gender's roles. As a "warrior" she would have brought weakness to the Qun, because women cannot be warriors, just as they cannot live on the moon.

 

Here's what you're forgetting though, the Temassran would not see the woman's fighting abilities as anything, because women cannot fight. So there would be no possibility of her ever being considered for the antaam in the first place. Women cannot fight, therefore they cannot fulfill the male gender role of warrior. If the woman claimed to be able to fight and be a warrior, the Temassran would identify this as a woman wishing to be a man. An impossibility leading only to frustration.

 

What you're suggesting is nonsense. If a warrior can't be reeducated into becoming a farmer under the Qun (which we agree that the Qun teaches this), then it also stands to reason that a woman cannot be reeducated into becoming a man, since that is physically impossible, as is living on the moon.

 

The woman would be a waste as a soldier, because women cannot be soldiers. She is never considered for the antaam.

 

Female worker drone > female "warrior" in the eyes of the Temassran, because females can't possibly be warriors. Those skills she displayed? That was just a display of frustration from someone trying to live on the moon. That wasn't fighting.

[Dai Grepher]

Not really. It had some bizarre sexism and homophobia - and I say bizarre because it actively contradicted the lore - but otherwise it was the same setting.

 

It did not contradict the lore. Inquisition confirms that Ferelden sees homosexuality as strange, and punishes it if done openly to some unspecified degree.

 

As for sexism, I don't see how. Other than what Sten says about the Qunari and gender roles, how the dwarves determine caste, or Anora's gripes about being treated differently as a ruler because she's a woman, I didn't see any politically incorrect content based on gender.
 

[RoseLawliet]

Can we talk about how Iron Bull has apparently never had that talk with Krem yet? It sounds like the Chargers have existed as a group for a while, but Bull waits for that conversation with the Inquisitor to tell Krem about aqun-athlok? How can he get annoyed with the Inquistor for asking about something even Krem doesn't know yet? Not to mention this banter with Cole (copied from the wiki, emphasis mine, showing Bull thinks of Krem as female at least subconsciously):

 

Iron Bull: Hey, Cole. Quick! What number am I thinking of?

Cole: Raw and hot, trying to open it, but just darkness. How bad, how bad? No, done now, no sense worrying.

Cole: The man they hurt coughs, shaking, but sits up. Eyes wide. No, not a man, a woman, clothes torn.

Cole: "You're safe now. I'm Iron Bull. What do you want me to call you?"

Iron Bull: Twelve. The number I was thinking of was "twelve."

Iron Bull: (Grumbles.) Demon interrogators. Stupid idea anyway.

[DuskWanderer]

Bull thinks of Krem subconsciously as a female because Krem is female. If Krem doesn't like to be female, Krem is free to think that way, but Krem is female. The writers made the whole transgender thing with the Qun because they were trying to make it "look good", after the disastrous attempt in DA2 to portray the Qun as awesome. 

[In Exile]

I don't agree that it contradicted the lore.  And therefore I don't agree that it was bizarre.  

 

DA:O makes it clear that sexism is a non-starter, particularly when it comes to physical feats (military service, etc.) and the distribution of power (this isn't true in everyculture, Orzammar being the exception). But we don't see a society that plays that out. Same with S/S relationships and the strange distinction between an M/M relationship and an F/F one we see with Leliana and Zevran, which just tracks modern IRL prejudice.

 

It did not contradict the lore. Inquisition confirms that Ferelden sees homosexuality as strange, and punishes it if done openly to some unspecified degree.

 

Only in the fantasy Ferelden that seems to only exist in your head. In the one that is portrayed in the game an written about in the codex, the situation is a little different: 

 

What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands. Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows. The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye.

 

"Scandal if done indiscreetly" =/= "strange" or "punished if done openly".

  

As for sexism, I don't see how. Other than what Sten says about the Qunari and gender roles, how the dwarves determine caste, or Anora's gripes about being treated differently as a ruler because she's a woman, I didn't see any politically incorrect content based on gender.

 

Anora's gripes don't make any sense, because Ferelden isn't a country that has those views. Much in the same way that the Warden making references to her gender makes no sense, because again, those beliefs don't exist in setting. 

[Illegitimus]

 

"Scandal if done indiscreetly" =/= "strange" or "punished if done openly".

  

 

 

Yeah.  Disagreement here.  That's exactly what that means.  

[In Exile]

Yeah.  Disagreement here.  That's exactly what that means.  

 

That's literally not what the word means, by definition. There's not much room for disagreement. It's not "strange". Political corruption and bribery can constitute a "scandal". Neither would be described as "strange" (which is clearly being used in the sense of peculiar, with moral disapprobation). 

 

In the same way, "punishment" isn't used as "nebulous harm to reputation". It's used it's its literal sense of public sanction, by the state. 

[Dai Grepher]

Only in the fantasy Ferelden that seems to only exist in your head. In the one that is portrayed in the game an written about in the codex, the situation is a little different: 

 

What I find most interesting is that, despite the lack of open discussion on matters of human sexuality, there is commonality to be found on the subject in all Andrastian lands. Typically, one's sexual habits are considered natural and separate from matters of procreation, and only among the nobility, where procreation involves issues of inheritance and the union of powerful families, is it considered of vital importance. Yet, even there, a noble who has done their duty to the family might be allowed to pursue their own sexual interests without raising eyebrows. The view on indulging lusts with a member of the same gender varies from land to land. In Orlais, it is considered a quirk of character and nothing more. In Ferelden, it is a matter of scandal if done indiscreetly but otherwise nothing noteworthy. In Tevinter, it is considered selfish and deviant behavior among nobles, but actively encouraged with favored slaves. Nowhere is it forbidden, and sex of any kind is only considered worthy of judgment when taken to awful excess or performed in the public eye.

 

"Scandal if done indiscreetly" =/= "strange" or "punished if done openly".

  

 

Anora's gripes don't make any sense, because Ferelden isn't a country that has those views. Much in the same way that the Warden making references to her gender makes no sense, because again, those beliefs don't exist in setting. 

 

Dude. There is a CODEX in Inquisition that clearly states that Ferelden finds homosexuality to be strange, and you even reference it. So it baffles me as to how you can be this wrong about the issue when you have the facts right there in front of you.

 

Illegitimus is right. That's exactly what it means. Thanks for getting us to agree on something in this thread.

 

Why is it considered a scandal then, if not because it's considered strange or there is some moral objection to it?

 

They exist, just not to the extent that they have in real life.

[Illegitimus]

That's literally not what the word means, by definition. There's not much room for disagreement. It's not "strange". Political corruption and bribery can constitute a "scandal". Neither would be described as "strange" (which is clearly being used in the sense of peculiar, with moral disapprobation). 

 

In the same way, "punishment" isn't used as "nebulous harm to reputation". It's used it's its literal sense of public sanction, by the state. 

 

Political corruption and bribery are not the only kinds of scandal.  Unconventional sexual activity is another kind and more relevant to this matter.  

[Patchwork]

Can we talk about how Iron Bull has apparently never had that talk with Krem yet? It sounds like the Chargers have existed as a group for a while, but Bull waits for that conversation with the Inquisitor to tell Krem about aqun-athlok? How can he get annoyed with the Inquistor for asking about something even Krem doesn't know yet? Not to mention this banter with Cole (copied from the wiki, emphasis mine, showing Bull thinks of Krem as female at least subconsciously):

 

Iron Bull: Hey, Cole. Quick! What number am I thinking of?

Cole: Raw and hot, trying to open it, but just darkness. How bad, how bad? No, done now, no sense worrying.

Cole: The man they hurt coughs, shaking, but sits up. Eyes wide. No, not a man, a woman, clothes torn.

Cole: "You're safe now. I'm Iron Bull. What do you want me to call you?"

Iron Bull: Twelve. The number I was thinking of was "twelve."

Iron Bull: (Grumbles.) Demon interrogators. Stupid idea anyway.

 

The scene Cole picks out of Bull's head is how Krem and Iron Bull meet, Krem tells you about the bar fight. The torn clothes allowed Bull to see that person being being beat up has boobs and in that moment he thinks "not a man, a woman". It doesn't mean that despite his words Bull really thinks Krem is a woman, it's just a memory Cole is seeing/feeling and telling the world about.

[RoseLawliet]

The scene Cole picks out of Bull's head is how Krem and Iron Bull meet, Krem tells you about the bar fight. The torn clothes allowed Bull to see that person being being beat up has boobs and in that moment he thinks "not a man, a woman". It doesn't mean that despite his words Bull really thinks Krem is a woman, it's just a memory Cole is seeing/feeling and telling the world about.

 

I know it's when they met, but Cole has shown that he's able to not only look at people's memories, but also their current thoughts about them. I took the lack of any sort of "updates" and objection from Bull to mean everyone involved in this bit of mind probing agreed that this is what Bull thinks. Could be wrong, that's just my interpretation.

[Patchwork]

I know it's when they met, but Cole has shown that he's able to not only look at people's memories, but also their current thoughts about them. I took the lack of any sort of "updates" and objection from Bull to mean everyone involved in this bit of mind probing agreed that this is what Bull thinks. Could be wrong, that's just my interpretation.

The treatment of Krem's transgenderism is as subtle as a brick to the head (same goes for the entire Meet the Chargers scene) so I think we're supposed to take Bull at face value for this at least.

[Patchwork]

I know it's when they met, but Cole has shown that he's able to not only look at people's memories, but also their current thoughts about them. I took the lack of any sort of "updates" and objection from Bull to mean everyone involved in this bit of mind probing agreed that this is what Bull thinks. Could be wrong, that's just my interpretation.

The treatment of Krem's transgenderism is as subtle as a brick to the head (same goes for the entire Meet the Chargers scene) so I think we're supposed to take Bull at face value for this at least.

[In Exile]

Political corruption and bribery are not the only kinds of scandal. Unconventional sexual activity is another kind and more relevant to this matter.

You're putting the cart before the horse - ascribing a moral disapprobation to something the codex says the opposite of in general and nothing regarding in particular. The whole argument is whether Thedas does consider it unconventional in the way we do. We can't start from the premise you're trying to prove.

[In Exile]

Dude. There is a CODEX in Inquisition that clearly states that Ferelden finds homosexuality to be strange, and you even reference it. So it baffles me as to how you can be this wrong about the issue when you have the facts right there in front of you.

Illegitimus is right. That's exactly what it means. Thanks for getting us to agree on something in this thread.

Why is it considered a scandal then, if not because it's considered strange or there is some moral objection to it?

They exist, just not to the extent that they have in real life.

The word "strange" isn't used. It quite literally is not used in the codex, and no synonym of the world strange is used. It requires a terrifying ignorance of the English language to take the position you're taking re: its use. Whatever tortured logic got you to this is just plan wrong.

I'm not going to cure you of your ignorance, just as I haven't in the many threads we've debated about the Qun. Pretend the English language says othewise - not my issue.

[Dai Grepher]

You can't argue it because your belief has no basis. The codex's literal text is that it is scandalous if done indiscreetly. Get hung up on the word "strange" and use it as your excuse to bail if you want, but you're ignoring the codex regardless because your position is weak.

[In Exile]

You can't argue it because your belief has no basis. The codex's literal text is that it is scandalous if done indiscreetly. Get hung up on the word "strange" and use it as your excuse to bail if you want, but you're ignoring the codex regardless because your position is weak.

 

This is not about belief. This is about the literal content of words. I'm not "hung up" on the word strange. That's your thing, as the quotes below illustrate: 

 

Dude. There is a CODEX in Inquisition that clearly states that Ferelden finds homosexuality to be strange, and you even reference it. So it baffles me as to how you can be this wrong about the issue when you have the facts right there in front of you.

It did not contradict the lore. Inquisition confirms that Ferelden sees homosexuality as strange, and punishes it if done openly to some unspecified degree.

 

Now, let's go back to what I said:  

 

Not really. [DA:O] had some bizarre sexism and homophobia - and I say bizarre because it actively contradicted the lore - but otherwise it was the same setting.

...Same with S/S relationships and the strange distinction between an M/M relationship and an F/F one we see with Leliana and Zevran, which just tracks modern IRL prejudice.

 

You seem to think I took the position that Ferelden should have openly approved of same-sex relationships. That's not what I said. What I said was that the way DA:O portrayed same-sex relationships contradicted the lore. In the following post, I said the contradiction was in distinguishing between M/M and F/F relations. 

 

The DA:I codex doesn't say it's "more OK" to be in an F/F relationship than an M/M one. This is what makes the homophobia "bizarre", and what made it track the (at the time) prejudice, despite the fact that according to DA:O (and DA:I) lore, people should have made no distinction between them.