271 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

I think Bull was just firm in his response, not aggressive, judgmental, or condescending or whatever you think he was.

[IanPolaris]

Part of that could be that the whole thing is a blatent retcon (and yes I do know what that means).  Don't take my word, talk to Sten as a female warden and/or listen to his (Sten's) banter with Morrigan in DAO.

[Semyaza82]

Part of that could be that the whole thing is a blatent retcon (and yes I do know what that means).  Don't take my word, talk to Sten as a female warden and/or listen to his (Sten's) banter with Morrigan in DAO.

   I don't see it as retcon. Not to say that I think the writers had necessarily already decided about the existence of Aqun Athlok within the Qun when they were writing DA:O. I'm sure over the years the lore about the Qun grew pretty massively, but just because something isn't said previously doesn't make it a retcon.

   Plus what Bull says doesn't actually change what Sten tells us at all - in fact I think it makes it make more sense. Physically, as in biologically, a female warden is clearly a woman. Sten isn't stupid, he knew that before saying 'I don't understand. You look like a woman.' If you take the whole conversation as essentially asking 'Why do you dress as a woman if you are Aqun Athlok?' it seems to make way more sense to me. 

[Adam Revlan]

This. It's Krem's business and you're, like, gossiping about him and asking all these intensely invasive and personal questions behind his back... >_____> While we as players usually want to click all the dialogue options (because they're there) IRL if someone started nosing around about my best friend I'd lose my patience pretty fast.
I'm sure Krem's had to deal with a lot of misgendering in his time, and judging from Bull's reaction to his romance with Maryden ("you need me to talk to her about...things?") Bull's probably had to field a lot of that in the past. He wants to nip the Inquisitor's lack of understanding in the bud before it hurts his friend.
It's the same with the Qunari thing. The difference between Qunari and Tal-Vashoth is a VERY SENSITIVE topic for Bull and it's all wrapped up in his PTSD from his time on Seheron, so him being all "lolno" to a Qunquisitor isn't... unexpected.

I think I understand a bit more now, I think I needed to look at it from a different perspective.
At first, I was only considering my Inquisitor's point of view, which was simply that he was asking harmless questions in order to better understand something he had never encountered before.
But I can completely understand how Bull might see these questions as invasive to his friend's privacy and how the intentions behind them may not be pure.
But then again, you can ask Krem directly after meeting the Chargers about his identity and how his family dealt with it, and he always seemed a lot more open to talk about it. That's why I never saw it as an invasion of Krem's privacy, because he never made me feel like I was annoying him with my enquiries.

[Shechinah]

But then again, you can ask Krem directly after meeting the Chargers about his identity and how his family dealt with it, and he always seemed a lot more open to talk about it. That's why I never saw it as an invasion of Krem's privacy, because he never made me feel like I was annoying him with my enquiries.

 

Initially Krem does not seem interested in talking about it during the conversational cutscene where the Iron Bull introduces the Chargers especially going by his tone and facial expression. He also seems to accidentally out himself since he was having a bit of banter with the Iron Bull and did not seem to think twice about what he was implying with said banter.

 

Krem: "They ever wear shirts under the Qun, chief? Or do they just run around binding their breasts like that?"

Iron Bull: "It's a harness, Krem."

Krem: "Yes, for your pillowy man-bosoms. Let me know if you need help binding. You could chisel something out of that overstuffed look."

Inquisitor: "Wait, are you... I didn't realize..."

Krem:  "You didn't? Well, great. Now we can all talk about it"

 

It may help that, I believe, the Inquisitor inquiries to Krem personally about in a private conversation which he may have been more comfortable with.
 

[IanPolaris]

   I don't see it as retcon. Not to say that I think the writers had necessarily already decided about the existence of Aqun Athlok within the Qun when they were writing DA:O. I'm sure over the years the lore about the Qun grew pretty massively, but just because something isn't said previously doesn't make it a retcon.

   Plus what Bull says doesn't actually change what Sten tells us at all - in fact I think it makes it make more sense. Physically, as in biologically, a female warden is clearly a woman. Sten isn't stupid, he knew that before saying 'I don't understand. You look like a woman.' If you take the whole conversation as essentially asking 'Why do you dress as a woman if you are Aqun Athlok?' it seems to make way more sense to me. 

 

Play DAO again.  I think it's pretty clear that it IS a retcon.

[Shechinah]

Play DAO again.  I think it's pretty clear that it IS a retcon.

 

It'd be better if you could provide what and why you consider it to be a retcon as well as what from Dragon Age: Origins you think support your claim because what you presented is not much of a counterargument.
 

[dragondreamer]

I think I understand a bit more now, I think I needed to look at it from a different perspective.
At first, I was only considering my Inquisitor's point of view, which was simply that he was asking harmless questions in order to better understand something he had never encountered before.
But I can completely understand how Bull might see these questions as invasive to his friend's privacy and how the intentions behind them may not be pure.
But then again, you can ask Krem directly after meeting the Chargers about his identity and how his family dealt with it, and he always seemed a lot more open to talk about it. That's why I never saw it as an invasion of Krem's privacy, because he never made me feel like I was annoying him with my enquiries.

 

It's more polite to ask Krem in a private conversation than just putting him on the spot in a group setting.  Krem may be open to it, but we don't really know him well enough during that conversation, so it is kinda rude to bring it up there.  Bull doesn't know exactly where the Inquisitor is going when they start with the questions, so he goes on the defensive right away.  Bull makes it clear he isn't going to tolerate anyone giving Krem trouble, not even the Inquisitor.

 

I've actually only done that initial dialogue the first playthrough because I like to see everything, but it feels more natural to skip over it. 

[Semyaza82]

Initially Krem does not seem interested in talking about it during the conversational cutscene where the Iron Bull introduces the Chargers especially going by his tone and facial expression. He also seems to accidentally out himself since he was having a bit of banter with the Iron Bull and did not seem to think twice about what he was implying with said banter.

 

 

It may help that, I believe, the Inquisitor inquiries to Krem personally about in a private conversation which he may have been more comfortable with.
 

I think you're onto something here. Makes sense that he might not want to discuss it at length with a group but would be open to answering someones questions in private. Not least because the chargers seem to take their drinking seriously - that was singing and swilling time, not sharing time

 

Play DAO again.  I think it's pretty clear that it IS a retcon.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree 

[Ieldra]

Play DAO again.  I think it's pretty clear that it IS a retcon.

Absolutely. The question is whether it's a good retcon or a bad one. For me it's a bad one because the impact on the Qun is all out of proportion. It's compromising a whole established ideology just to drive the point home that transgender people have a place in the world. They could've done that with much less impact on the lore.

 

I also agree that Bull's response comes across as harsh. I usually avoid the whole topic, because I think it's very arrogant of the writers to assume that everyone who so much as asks questions about this, or has some disagreements about how this is handled, in-world or in RL, is somehow hostile to transgender people. RP-wise, my Inquisitor probably would ask since Krem brings it up implicitly with the banter, but not doing is isn't too far out of character.

[Semyaza82]

The question is whether it's a good retcon or a bad one. For me it's a bad one because the impact on the Qun is all out of proportion. It's compromising a whole established ideology just to drive the point home that transgender people have a place in the world. They could've done that with much less impact on the lore.

 

I'm still not convinced its a retcon, but assuming for arguments sake that it is I'm not sure why you feel it has such huge impact on the Qun. I don't see how the idea of Aqun Athlok compromises the whole ideology? 

 

p.s. I know working out tone can be damn near impossible online, so to be clear that was meant as an actual question not snark

[Gileadan]

Ah, I won't forget that wonderful dialogue so soon. When IB yelled at me "He's a man!", I felt like I was in North Korea and someone had just pointed out to everyone that I hadn't clapped enthusiastically enough at the chairman's speech.

[dragondreamer]

This topic: Bull hurts player feelings.

 

I just think it's weird people focus on this subject when Bull will growl at you for other things as well.  More frequently in fact.  Demons, magic, Tal-Vashoth, Orlesians who don't stock enough cheese dip.

 

Bull lost an eye defending Krem from those who were ready to kill him over being transgender.  I think Bull is being pretty civil, considering his PTSD and all.

 

Also additional information added to the lore isn't a retcon.  The lore not fitting preconceptions isn't a retcon.  The lore having more nuances than you are willing to accept is not a retcon.

[vertigomez]

This topic: Bull hurts player feelings.

I just think it's weird people focus on this subject when Bull will growl at you for other things as well. More frequently in fact. Demons, magic, Tal-Vashoth, Orlesians who don't stock enough cheese dip.

Bull lost an eye defending Krem from those who were ready to kill him over being transgender. I think Bull is being pretty civil, considering his PTSD and all.

Also additional information added to the lore isn't a retcon. The lore not fitting preconceptions isn't a retcon. The lore having more nuances than you are willing to accept is not a retcon.

I want to put this in a gilded frame and stick it on my mantle.

First step: finagle a mantle.

[Toasted Llama]

Previous games of Bioware have conditioned me to investigate everything and ask all  the questions. Whether or not they were deemed appropriate or rude (as some people suggest the questions towards Krem could be), there were even some very awkward moments where you could investigate, no problem whatsoever. So Bull's response felt weird and out of place.

 

Personally I don't want to be chastized for investigating/asking questions in the games because it might be rude or inappropriate, considering I have to do this IRL 24/7 (and still fail at it!) and because it's never ever before been done in the games.

 

If the dialogue option I choose is the *******/"renegade" one, then sure, angry reactions from everyone please!

[dragondreamer]

Previous games of Bioware have conditioned me to investigate everything and ask all  the questions. Whether or not they were deemed appropriate or rude (as some people suggest the questions towards Krem could be), there were even some very awkward moments where you could investigate, no problem whatsoever. So Bull's response felt weird and out of place.

 

Personally I don't want to be chastized for investigating/asking questions in the games because it might be rude or inappropriate, considering I have to do this IRL 24/7 (and still fail at it!) and because it's never ever before been done in the games.

 

If the dialogue option I choose is the *******/"renegade" one, then sure, angry reactions from everyone please!

 

But immersion!  And as someone who also likes to ask all the things, it isn't new to this game or unique to Bull.

 

Speaking of previous Bioware games, I'm currently playing ME2 for the first time, and people get snippy for the darndest things.  And I have the nicest Shepard in the galaxy.  HOW WAS I TO KNOW THAT WAS AN INSULT TO YOUR SPECIES CULTURE GOSH.

[Heimdall]

Bull lost an eye defending Krem from those who were ready to kill him over being transgender. 

I'm pretty sure they were hunting him for desertion, if I recall.

[guigaccess]

I think Bull's reaction is pretty normal.

 

When you find out Krem is a transgender man, Bull is merely explanative saying how the qun views the subject. There is nothing harsh or weird in his tone or in the content of what he says.

 

Then, after the matter of Krem's gender was already discussed (you can't say your Inquisitor was ignorant about it or about Bull/ the qun's view anymore), you come again at him basically saying "You don't think it's weird she is passing as a man... but she is not?".

Characters in these games usually react not just to what you said exactly, but to where you are coming from, and when you say something like THAT, Bull can see right through you and the fact that you are not simply being curious and he just cuts the talk short going straight to where it matters instead of beating the bush.
At that point, you deserved to be called on what you were saying. It was simply a scolding, he was not calling you the spawn of Satan, no reason to overreact.

[Ieldra]

Also additional information added to the lore isn't a retcon.  The lore having more nuances than you are willing to accept is not a retcon.

It is. If I may quote (source):

 

"Retroactive continuity. Reframing past events to serve a current plot need."

 

This new bit of lore is a reinterpretation of the Qun's stance on gender roles, as established in DAO. It doesn't precisely contradict anything, but it's perfectly clear this interpretation is new, it's fueled by concerns outside of the story and it significantly changes how the Qun is perceived on matters of gender - from complete inflexibility to rather more flexibility than it shows in anything else. That it's a retcon isn't necessarily bad. However, the fact that this changes how the Qun is perceived as significantly, for reasons that lie outside of the story, together with Bull's reaction, makes it come across as an intrusive form of author appeal.  

 

You see, my reaction to Krem's presence was "So they have transgender people in Thedas. OK."  A piece of neutral lore, shouldn't be that surprising considering the people of Thedas are basically as human as we are. Nothing to see here, people. Move on. The change to the Qun was different. It wasn't necessary to reinterpret the Qun in order for Krem's presence to be regarded as normal. In fact, only the reinterpretation of the Qun makes this scene stand out in the first place.

[Toasted Llama]

But immersion!  And as someone who also likes to ask all the things, it isn't new to this game or unique to Bull.

 

Speaking of previous Bioware games, I'm currently playing ME2 for the first time, and people get snippy for the darndest things.  And I have the nicest Shepard in the galaxy.  HOW WAS I TO KNOW THAT WAS AN INSULT TO YOUR SPECIES CULTURE GOSH.

 

Personally never really came across anything similar to IBs reaction or at least a reaction that gave me the feeling asking questions was bad. Considering I'm renegading through ME2 now personally, I'm often surprised how not insulted/angry/annoyed people react at my a**hole Shep. (there were also many of these moments in ME1, where Shep was just a total douche and the companions were all "yeah, you're totally right shepard! I'll just completely ignore my mental well-being!" and I was just sitting there in silence, slightly baffled at how totally okay they were with a**hole Shepard)

[Krypplingz]

Spoiler

1. Are you a woman?

I: Wait, are you...I didn't realize...

K: You didn't? Well great, now we can all talk about it.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

3. When did you know?

I: Did you always know?

K: Yes. It's not the most fortunate thing to know about yourself, growing up in Tevinter one rung above slavery.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

4. Why pass?

I: You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary.

K: I'm not passing as anything.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

6. And the rest of your crew?

I: Who are the others?

(Skips to the next dialog segment.)

 

Part 2

IB: In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another.

K: And Qunari don't treat those...Aqun people any different than a real man?

IB: They are real men. Just like you are.

K: Hmm...Maybe your people aren't so bad after all. 

IB: Don't get your hopes up, Krem. We still come down hard on the back talk. 

 

Spoiler

Tell me about Krem.

I:I'd like to know more about Krem.

IB: He's a good soldier, and a better second-in-command.

IB: The troops need someone to complain to when I'm being a hard-ass. He's good for that. 

 

Him being her isn't an issue?

I: You don't have any problems with him being a woman?

IB: He's not a woman.

IB: Look, you and I have to walk carefully so we don't accidentally break the furniture or the elves (Qunari Quizzy)

IB: We're probably not the best people to go around deciding what's normal.

IB: Krem's a good man. I don't give a nug's ass that it's a little harder for him to (dispose of water) standing up.

 

None of the dialog is pointed at the inquisitor or the player specifically. As others have said, Krem just wants to relax and drink beer with his friends, not educate you on his gender identification. He will talk to you later and be much more relaxed about it.  Bull is not attacking anyone either, he's comforting a friend, assuring him that it's okay, there are people like him and those are okay as well. 

No one raises their voices, there are no name callings, tones might get mildly sharpened but there is no disapproval. 

 

No one is hating on you but you are a new comer in the pack touching on a sore subject in a scene which is supposed to be chilled. The subject has led to one of the groups members being physically assaulted, so as a leader, Bull tries to steer the subject on a different path, while comforting his man at the same time.

Try reading Bulls lines in the voice of Leliana, Wynne, Josephine. Dorian or Varric  and see if your perception changes. 

[nightscrawl]

Oh I never choose the inquisitor's stupid questions, I meant the part where Bull just starts explaining Aqun Athlok like "look how awesome the Qun is!" You don't even have to ask any questions for that to happen.

 

Uhm, yes you do have to ask first, because I've never seen that dialogue since I never ask about Krem. I've taken all of his other Qunari-related investigate options and never once seen this.

[Dai Grepher]

Retcon means "retroactive continuity". It means new story is added that puts previous storyline in a new light and gives a new meaning to it that is consistent with the facts.

 

But when a storyline is changed by a new addition, that is called a rewrite.

 

I think these terms have been misused by the general public for quite some time.

 

With that out of the way, I don't think Bull's comments about aqun-athlok are examples of retcons or rewrites. I think he was just flat out lying for Krem's sake. Sten makes it crystal clear that being a soldier is a man's role, and those who are female cannot be soldiers under the Qun, ever. He also makes it clear that females are defined by their physical structure, not their opinion of themselves. The Qun teaches that you cannot choose what you are.

[QueenCrow]

There is an informational blog post from the writer's perspective and I thought it may be useful here as regards writer's intent - along with the declaration that the writers really struggled with how to treat this subject with some sensitivity.

 

http://blog.bioware....s-krem-aclassi/

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Let me start by saying I completely love the Dragon Age universe.

When my Inquisitor asked Bull about who Krem was and how his sexual identity worked, I always felt that Bull's responses to my Inquisitor were overly aggressive, as if he thought my inquisitor was against Krem by virtue of the questions he was asking. And you might say: "but you as the player already know all about Transgenderism, so why would you ask about it?".
Yes, I do know a lot about transgenderism in real life, but my inquisitor doesn't, this is the first time he has ever seen someone like Krem and he was just curious.

I'm not against the fact that Dragon Age: Inquisition is a very politically correct game, what I'm against is the fact that whenever the player tries to question some of that correctness, the game proceeds to bash your head in as if you are some raging homophobe.

It was so bad for me that on subsequent playthroughs, I stopped recruiting Iron Bull altogether due to the fact that I hate his character greatly now. It might seem like a bit much, but I was so aggravated by the way this was handled, Iron Bull was needlessly aggressive towards my inquisitor for simply asking a question. It's a shame considering that before Inquisition came out, I thought that Iron Bull would be one of my favorite characters, but now I have nothing but contempt for him.

And before you say anything, know that I'm gay and in no way against transgender people, I just wish that this was handled in a more sensible, less aggressive way.

Why is this so small holy moly.
I'm also fairly certain it's just "transgender" not "transgenderism"