271 réponses à ce sujet

[Absafraginlootly]

*snip*

 

What Bull doesn't mention though, is what happens to a trans person in the Qun who's gender identity and the role they're best suited for don't match up. If Krem weren't a good soldier, if he were, let's say, a great cook, then his identity wouldn't be respected by the Qun, since only women cook under the Qun.

 

*snip*

 

This. Regardless of whether you think its a retcon or simply a further revelation on how they think, the Aqun Athlok don't make the qun any more cuddly or less harsh.

 

Neither a cis woman or a transwoman who wanted to fight would be allowed too, they either have to take on a "womans" role or be falsely identified as a man. Similarly a cis male who wanted to be a baker would not be allowed, would have to accept being referred to as the wrong gender or not be a baker at all.

 

If any of these people refused to do either, then they'd be sent for re-education, and if that failed they'd be lobotomized with Qamek.

 

The Qun is just as harsh, f****ed up, disturbing, and strictly ad-hearing to roles as it ever was, if you perform this role you are male, if you perform that role you a female, the shape of your junk just isn't the important part. 

 

re: the OP's original topic

 

I didn't find Bull to be aggressive. Brusque perhaps, but not aggressive. 

 

I'm surprised to see so many people were bothered by Bull being defensive of his friend when faced with invasive questions.

[QueenCrow]

 

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Morrigan: Excuse me?
• Sten: Obviously you are no priestess. But shouldn't you be... running a shop, or a farm somewhere, rather than fighting?
• Morrigan: You think to tell me my place, Qunari? You are very brave.
• Sten: It is not done.
• Morrigan: But it is done. Do not be such a blind fool.
• Sten: I speak the truth. It is not I who is blind.
• Morrigan: Look around you, then. You see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both.
• Sten: That has yet to be proven.
• Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?
• Sten: Either.
• Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. 

 

Will someone take a shot at this please?  If Morrigan is correct and Sten doesn't see her as a woman because she fights, as what does he see her?

[vertigomez]

Will someone take a shot at this please? If Morrigan is correct and Sten doesn't see her as a woman because she fights, as what does he see her?

A man. Well... a "dangerous thing," but a man. He can readily see that she's fighting and says as much, but Morrigan simply can't prove to him that she's not a man.

ETA, Leliana gets away with it because she's a priestess/Ben-Hassrath.

[TammieAZ]

It irked me that I couldn't inform Maryden that Krem's a female.   

[QueenCrow]

A man. Well... a "dangerous thing," but a man. He can readily see that she's fighting and says as much, but Morrigan simply can't prove to him that she's not a man.

ETA, Leliana gets away with it because she's a priestess/Ben-Hassrath.

 

Thank you.  That's what I suspected.  And it's the reason why I assumed that the Qunari would reasonably have an easier time with understanding someone like Krem than they would a fighter who is clearly a woman.

[Andraste_Reborn]

It irked me that I could inform Maryden that Krem's a female.   

 

From what Cole says, it seems likely that Maryden knows Krem is trans and/or doesn't care.

[Reighto]

A man. Well... a "dangerous thing," but a man. He can readily see that she's fighting and says as much, but Morrigan simply can't prove to him that she's not a man.

ETA, Leliana gets away with it because she's a priestess/Ben-Hassrath.

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Leliana: What do you mean?
• Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
• Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
• Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
• Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this.

 

 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Wynne: I beg your pardon?
• Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
• Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
• Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
• Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
• Sten: As you wish.

 

 

What do you think about these? They differentiate a bit to the Morrigan dialogue. I'm just curious how people interpret these. One could think, he means that there are no transgender people in the Qun. It could also mean that a warrior is a man by definition. There is no female warrior, they were considered men to begin with.

[guigaccess]

Didn't got those dialogues myself, they are really interesting.

 

I still can't see how a culture that erases any trace of individuality can recognize, much less respect, something like gender identity, but those dialogues show that the notion of gender in the Qunari is much more fluid than I gave them credit... and back in DAO times.

[IanPolaris]

Didn't got those dialogues myself, they are really interesting.

 

I still can't see how a culture that erases any trace of individuality can recognize, much less respect, something like gender identity, but those dialogues show that the notion of gender in the Qunari is much more fluid than I gave them credit... and back in DAO times.

 

That isn't at all how I see it, and frankly at that time I don't think that was the intention.  Rather the message we are being hit over the head with over and over again is that in the Qun, your gender and role in society are inextricably linked and determined by birth.  You don't choose either under the Qun.  It's very rigid in this regard and frankly denies the entire idea of transgenderism.

[vertigomez]

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Leliana: What do you mean?
• Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.
• Leliana: I have no idea how to answer this...
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Leliana: Do you mean your people have no female mages or warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Leliana: What are you talking about? They don't wish to be men.
• Sten: They shouldn't. That can only lead to frustration.
• Leliana: Sten...no, never mind. Let's drop this.

 
 

• Sten: Why are you here?
• Wynne: I beg your pardon?
• Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants. Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy. They have no place in war.
• Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
• Sten: It is not done. There is no more to it.
• Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors?
• Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?
• Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
• Sten: You cannot wish to be a man. It will lead you only to frustration.
• Wynne: Hmm. I believe this discussion does the same. Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
• Sten: As you wish.

 
 
What do you think about these? They differentiate a bit to the Morrigan dialogue. I'm just curious how people interpret these. One could think, he means that there are no transgender people in the Qun. It could also mean that a warrior is a man by definition. There is no female warrior, they were considered men to begin with.

It's this. Sten is troubled because these "men" (warriors) he's traveling with insist on maintaining their female identity. Their actions are butting up against his preconceptions of the world and as far as he's concerned, are mutually exclusive. "You cannot wish to be a man." You already are one (based on your actions), regardless of your genitalia. Sten's problem is that these men are insisting they're women, but aren't willing to fulfill a woman's role as an artisan or shopkeeper or whatever.

[Rekkampum]

I wonder at the mental contortions I am seeing here just to avoid admitting that a clear retcon is in fact a retcon.  Sten said it all:  Under the Qun, you are BORN to do a job [and it is the Tamerissian's job to perceive what that job is].  If you are born a woman, then you clearly aren't meant to be a man, and thus not a warrior.  This philosophy explicitly denies and denounces transgenerism.  That's fine.  There are and have been many cultures that thought this.  Just don't urinate on my head and tell me it's raining later on.

 

It's a pretty clear and IMHO blatent retcon to make the Qun look better.

 

The tamassrans are the ones who evaluate a person from childhood and assign roles, so it's still not as clear-cut as you keep insisting. Women may not be allowed in the Antaam for instance, under the argument that they can't fight, yet the Ben-Hassrath allow them to do so as long as it is done for the Qun. You're also operating from the assumption that trans identity is something given to the person, when it's obviously not; a person who becomes an Aqun-Athlok obviously identified as that gender from childhood and thus acted in a way befitting what is typically expected of that gender in their society. Otherwise, the tamassrans would not have felt the need to assign these roles. There are no gymnastics involved, as their system still adheres to rigid concepts of gender identity. But by all means continue trying to establish what is clearly a non-canonical interpretation as fact.

[Donk]

It irked me that I couldn't inform Maryden that Krem's a female.   

 

It's time that I blew the whistle. Poor souls like yourself have suffered enough.

 

See guys.. I'm a secret agent for BioWare. I hang out on the forums to gather intel and spy. I had no choice, you see.. BioWare took me away from my home and tortured me, brainwashed me to become a super soldier to help implement THE AGENDA.

 

They experimented on me, used drugs.. promised me a place in Satan the reptilian overlord's kingdom of hell.

 

You see, once every single person on earth turns their faith away from the Maker and instead worships Satan the reptilian overlord, a reckoning will begin. Every single person will become gay and transgender, to reduce population and kill the Godly faith. Repent, for the end is nigh!

 

If I'm not around these boards in the future, it means I've been silenced. I am happy to make this sacrifice, to save the future of mankind and keep them on their just path.

[TammieAZ]

It's time that I blew the whistle. Poor souls like yourself have suffered enough.

 

See guys.. I'm a secret agent for BioWare. I hang out on the forums to gather intel and spy. I had no choice, you see.. BioWare took me away from my home and tortured me, brainwashed me to become a super soldier to help implement THE AGENDA.

 

They experimented on me, used drugs.. promised me a place in Satan the reptilian overlord's kingdom of hell.

 

You see, once every single person on earth turns their faith away from the Maker and instead worships Satan the reptilian overlord, a reckoning will begin. Every single person will become gay and transgender, to reduce population and kill the Godly faith. Repent, for the end is nigh!

 

If I'm not around these boards in the future, it means I've been silenced. I am happy to make this sacrifice, to save the future of mankind and keep them on their just path.

 

Ha! 

Called it. 

[BabyPuncher]

I was irritated at not being able to say anything about Bull's claim that Krem is a 'real man.'

 

But unfortunately the real problem with BioWare's handling of this sort of thing is much deeper and more damaging.

[Bipster]

Rather the message we are being hit over the head with over and over again is that in the Qun, your gender and role in society are inextricably linked and determined by birth.  You don't choose either under the Qun.  It's very rigid in this regard and frankly denies the entire idea of transgenderism.

 

But the individual under the Qun wouldn't be choosing anything. They would be assigned a role and gender that fits their talents and gender presentation. 

 

Also you seem to be confusing gender with biological sex, which are two completely different things. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics of a person, while gender refers to behaviors, roles, expectations, and activities in society.

[Nefla]

The whole idea of the Qun just relabeling people as a different gender based on their job is just idiotic to me. The Qunari used to seem super harsh but at least logical. There have been plenty of cultures where women aren't allowed to fight and whatever social and cultural things grew from that, it was based on the core instinct that women must be protected because they're more reproductively valuable than men. A womb is precious and you're not going to throw it away just because the woman is good at fighting. If you're not at some level basing your gender roles on the preservation of your species then your gender roles and restrictions are pointless and make no sense. Why would the Qun proclaim that women can under no circumstances be fighters and then immediately flip it around and be like "well we'll just call them men" who are they trying to fool with that? What loophole are they trying to make in their own culture and for what reason? The Qunari are logical, mind controlling, and forbid individuality. They would have no use for gender roles, only biological sex for baby making purposes. A logical culture (if you set aside reproduction value) would assess every person individually (which we already know they do) and assign them roles based on what they're best at. They wouldn't arbitrarily restrict by gender. This whole concept felt so forced to me because of how illogical it was. David Gaider said in one of the threads on the matter that they hadn't thought of the Aqun Athlok concept when making DA:O or DA2 and to me it really shows. It seems tacked on and contradictory. I know they wanted to show acceptance of transgender people, and that's awesome but do it in a way that makes sense. Have it not be an issue in the non-Qun cultures of Thedas, have Bull as an individual be supportive and protective of Krem, but don't shoehorn in a concept that doesn't make sense and doesn't mesh with what we know of the Qun.

[Vit246]

 

I was irritated at not being able to say anything about Bull's claim that Krem is a 'real man.'

 

But unfortunately the real problem with BioWare's handling of this sort of thing is much deeper and more damaging.

I hate to agree with this.

But it seems that bioware seems to....I don't know how to articulate this.....bioware seems to like to be anvilicious when it comes to things like transgenders and homosexuality. Or maybe thats the wrong word.

They do it in a way that says "Shame on you players! You should know better you insensitive ******!"

And my character has to stand there and receive his rightful chastisement like a good little boy. Question Krem and somehow the Inquisitor is being the insensitive a$$hole.

And as a response to this post, I fully expect someone to respond with one of those meme jpegs or gifs.

 

[Ieldra]

From what Cole says, it seems likely that Maryden knows Krem is trans and/or doesn't care.

I would expect a transgender person to be upfront about that *before* they enter a relationship, so I'd say it's safe to assume she knows.

 

But the individual under the Qun wouldn't be choosing anything. They would be assigned a role and gender that fits their talents and gender presentation. 

 

Also you seem to be confusing gender with biological sex, which are two completely different things. Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics of a person, while gender refers to behaviors, roles, expectations, and activities in society.

If I speak of the cultural aspects related to our sexual dimorphism, I use the terms "gender roles" and "typical/expected behaviour" (in fact, in my native language, an equivalent to the noun "gender", understood like you described, doesn't even exist). If I say "x is man/woman", this is typically understood as an intrinsic quality, which gender roles and expected behaviour are not. Thus, if I say "x is a man/woman", I am referring to the physical. Were I not, I would say "x lives as a man/woman", which, in fact, is how it's phrased when you ask Krem about it as the Inquisitor (points to Bioware for being aware of this terminology problem). Thus, if Sten says "you are a woman or a fighter, but can't be both", this *does* relate to the physical.

 

I would like to stress that this is a language problem and has nothing to do with being "anti-transgender" or something. That's why Bull's reaction comes across as unfairly condemning. "X is a man" applied to Krem comes across to me as a false proposition, there's nothing social or political about it. If someone chooses to live as a man or woman that doesn't concern me. Live and let live, you know. Expecting me to change the way I conceptualize the world is a rather different thing, and saying "you're wrong" and implying some moral failing is rather more likely to antagonize me.

[Reighto]

The whole idea of the Qun just relabeling people as a different gender based on their job is just idiotic to me. The Qunari used to seem super harsh but at least logical. There have been plenty of cultures where women aren't allowed to fight and whatever social and cultural things grew from that, it was based on the core instinct that women must be protected because they're more reproductively valuable than men. A womb is precious and you're not going to throw it away just because the woman is good at fighting. If you're not at some level basing your gender roles on the preservation of your species then your gender roles and restrictions are pointless and make no sense. Why would the Qun proclaim that women can under no circumstances be fighters and then immediately flip it around and be like "well we'll just call them men" who are they trying to fool with that? What loophole are they trying to make in their own culture and for what reason? The Qunari are logical, mind controlling, and forbid individuality. They would have no use for gender roles, only biological sex for baby making purposes. A logical culture (if you set aside reproduction value) would assess every person individually (which we already know they do) and assign them roles based on what they're best at. They wouldn't arbitrarily restrict by gender. This whole concept felt so forced to me because of how illogical it was. David Gaider said in one of the threads on the matter that they hadn't thought of the Aqun Athlok concept when making DA:O or DA2 and to me it really shows. It seems tacked on and contradictory. I know they wanted to show acceptance of transgender people, and that's awesome but do it in a way that makes sense. Have it not be an issue in the non-Qun cultures of Thedas, have Bull as an individual be supportive and protective of Krem, but don't shoehorn in a concept that doesn't make sense and doesn't mesh with what we know of the Qun.

Yeah i'm with you there! What Sten said in Origins, is pretty likely to be interpret differently. They might have wanted to go save because there could be changes later on. The Qun suddenly beeing so accepting, doesn't feel right for me. I think i'll go with the theory, that Iron Bull is simply lying to Krem in order for him to feel better.

[QueenCrow]

The whole idea of the Qun just relabeling people as a different gender based on their job is just idiotic to me. The Qunari used to seem super harsh but at least logical. There have been plenty of cultures where women aren't allowed to fight and whatever social and cultural things grew from that, it was based on the core instinct that women must be protected because they're more reproductively valuable than men. A womb is precious and you're not going to throw it away just because the woman is good at fighting. If you're not at some level basing your gender roles on the preservation of your species then your gender roles and restrictions are pointless and make no sense. Why would the Qun proclaim that women can under no circumstances be fighters and then immediately flip it around and be like "well we'll just call them men" who are they trying to fool with that? What loophole are they trying to make in their own culture and for what reason? The Qunari are logical, mind controlling, and forbid individuality. They would have no use for gender roles, only biological sex for baby making purposes. A logical culture (if you set aside reproduction value) would assess every person individually (which we already know they do) and assign them roles based on what they're best at. They wouldn't arbitrarily restrict by gender. This whole concept felt so forced to me because of how illogical it was. David Gaider said in one of the threads on the matter that they hadn't thought of the Aqun Athlok concept when making DA:O or DA2 and to me it really shows. It seems tacked on and contradictory. I know they wanted to show acceptance of transgender people, and that's awesome but do it in a way that makes sense. Have it not be an issue in the non-Qun cultures of Thedas, have Bull as an individual be supportive and protective of Krem, but don't shoehorn in a concept that doesn't make sense and doesn't mesh with what we know of the Qun.

 

Though I believe I understand your view on this subject of sex, gender, and warfare (in fact, my husband has the same perspective) I think that I have a different perspective due to knowledge of some historical cultures which were, for their time and place, logical even though their thought on gender roles resembles that of the "illogical" Qunari.

 

People say that the Qunari are inspired by different historical cultures.  I've heard socialist, communist, and Muslim thrown up as possibilities.  But without arguing for or against those suggestions, I will admit that I've always related the Qunari to pre-Christian Vikings in my mind.  I could be the notion of giants with big axes, sweeping in on dreadnoughts, void-bent on conquering, pillage, all of those naughty things.  It could be the egalitarian thought - meritocracy of the pre-Christian Vikings.  It could be the relation to dragons (yes, I know the Vikings didn't really ride dragons to battle as told in the stories, but sailed ships with dragon heads on the prows)

 

And another similarity is the view on gender and warfare among what some propose is Qunari, and what Saxo Grammaticus said was Viking/Dane.  Please keep in mind that Saxo is viewing another culture through the lens of Christianity, a patriarchal culture in which women (as defined by their genitalia rather than their natural inclinations or skills) were often forbidden by law from doing things reserved strictly for men (as defined by their genitalia).

 

 

“There were once women in Denmark who dressed themselves to look like men and spent almost every minute cultivating soldiers’ skills. They courted military celebrity so earnestly that you would have guessed they had unsexed themselves. Those especially who had forceful personalities or were tall and elegant embarked on this way of life. As if they were forgetful of their true selves they put toughness before allure, aimed at conflicts instead of kisses, tasted blood, not lips, sought the clash of arms rather than the arm’s embrace, fitted to weapons hands which should have been weaving, desired not the couch but the kill.”

~Saxo Grammaticus, Gesta Danorum

 

Sten's commentary in DAO always reminds me of Saxo with the mention of weaving, couches, and kisses.  It doesn't matter much if it's logical or not.  It was reality.  It is reality.  And those who view sex or gender as black and white issue had better get used to being surprised.

[duckley]

Honestly - I don't care anything about anyone's sexual preferences, proclivities, gender, gender identity etc etc etc.... Reference to of any of these topics in the context of an rpg seems odd to me, unless it forms a significant aspect of the personality and story of a companion.  

 

 

Frankly , I find Iron Bull and his buddies very uninteresting characartures of something (yes boss - sure boss, lets drink beer from the barrel boss) and I avoid them as much as I can

[QueenCrow]

Honestly - I don't care anything about anyone's sexual preferences, proclivities, gender, gender identity etc etc etc.... Reference to of any of these topics in the context of an rpg seems odd to me, unless it forms a significant aspect of the personality and story of a companion.  

 

 

Frankly , I find Iron Bull and his buddies very uninteresting characartures of something (yes boss - sure boss, lets drink beer from the barrel boss) and I avoid them as much as I can

 

You know, you do have a point.  Aside from the discussion going on here, which I find interesting, it dawned on me reading your post that I hired Bull and the Chargers initially thinking that the mercs were a group I could call into a fight, rather like the allies I collected in DAO and called in for the final fight scene.

 

Nope, with the exception of the Qun alliance scene on the Storm Coast when they become a liability, they just sit around the tavern while on Inquisition payroll, don't they?  And it doesn't matter what gender any of them are.  I didn't hire them this time around because Bioware made the disadvantageous in combat.

[duckley]

And its not as if there are a whole troop of them - really - they are five or six foot soldiers.... big whoop LOL

[Krypplingz]

(small snip)

Nope, with the exception of the Qun alliance scene on the Storm Coast when they become a liability, they just sit around the tavern while on Inquisition payroll, don't they?  And it doesn't matter what gender any of them are.  I didn't hire them this time around because Bioware made the disadvantageous in combat.

 

If you like war table mission then Krem gives you 5-10 war table missions, depending on which adviser you use. Iron Bull also gives you 5 war table quests before you complete his personal quest. 

But if you don't give a fig about those, then that doesn't matter.

[Ryzaki]

You know, you do have a point.  Aside from the discussion going on here, which I find interesting, it dawned on me reading your post that I hired Bull and the Chargers initially thinking that the mercs were a group I could call into a fight, rather like the allies I collected in DAO and called in for the final fight scene.

 

Nope, with the exception of the Qun alliance scene on the Storm Coast when they become a liability, they just sit around the tavern while on Inquisition payroll, don't they?  And it doesn't matter what gender any of them are.  I didn't hire them this time around because Bioware made the disadvantageous in combat.

 

Same happens with Vivienne and her mage resources. (And Sera and her friends really). Most of their impact is relegated to background noise.