271 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Will someone take a shot at this please?  If Morrigan is correct and Sten doesn't see her as a woman because she fights, as what does he see her?

 

Sten does not see Morrigan as a man. Morrigan was just being snarky. Later banter shows Sten mocking her by talking about their theoretical sexual encounter. Sten also recognizes Morrigan's relationship with the male Warden, as well as her attempts to seduce him.

 

When Sten says that neither thing has been seen, that the women who fight have been proven to be either warriors or women, he is making a snide remark about foreigners. He's saying it isn't proven they can fight, meaning they may fight poorly. Or the ones who fight might actually be males posing as females. Morrigan simply tries to turn the statement around on him by taking the statement to the extreme.

 

The Qun states that you cannot choose what you are. You are born either a male or a female, and your gender is determined by your physical sex. You cannot become the opposite gender. That can only lead to frustration. A woman cannot be a man, just as a person cannot live on the moon.

 

Sten clearly states all of these things. "You look like a woman", he says to a female Warden. "Then it stands to follow that you cannot be a warrior," if she says that she is a woman. So this proves Qunari determine gender based on physical sex, and that biological females cannot be warriors because that is a man's role. Women cannot wish to be warriors, they cannot wish to be men. The Warden can say that women wish to be women and also fight. Sten says, "Do they also wish to live on the moon? That is as attainable."

 

The Qun says that only males can be warriors, and females cannot be males. The Iron Bull was a lying Tal-Vashoth. He's dead now.

[Nefla]

Though I believe I understand your view on this subject of sex, gender, and warfare (in fact, my husband has the same perspective) I think that I have a different perspective due to knowledge of some historical cultures which were, for their time and place, logical even though their thought on gender roles resembles that of the "illogical" Qunari.

 

People say that the Qunari are inspired by different historical cultures.  I've heard socialist, communist, and Muslim thrown up as possibilities.  But without arguing for or against those suggestions, I will admit that I've always related the Qunari to pre-Christian Vikings in my mind.  I could be the notion of giants with big axes, sweeping in on dreadnoughts, void-bent on conquering, pillage, all of those naughty things.  It could be the egalitarian thought - meritocracy of the pre-Christian Vikings.  It could be the relation to dragons (yes, I know the Vikings didn't really ride dragons to battle as told in the stories, but sailed ships with dragon heads on the prows)

 

And another similarity is the view on gender and warfare among what some propose is Qunari, and what Saxo Grammaticus said was Viking/Dane.  Please keep in mind that Saxo is viewing another culture through the lens of Christianity, a patriarchal culture in which women (as defined by their genitalia rather than their natural inclinations or skills) were often forbidden by law from doing things reserved strictly for men (as defined by their genitalia).

 

 

Sten's commentary in DAO always reminds me of Saxo with the mention of weaving, couches, and kisses.  It doesn't matter much if it's logical or not.  It was reality.  It is reality.  And those who view sex or gender as black and white issue had better get used to being surprised.

There have definitely been women who disguised themselves as men, or simply chose to wear the more practical option of pants vs a dress. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The societies that allowed that behavior didn't relabel those women as men to form a loophole in their own arbitrary gender restrictions. Those that didn't, the women were in a self imposed disguise and anyone who would have sent them back to the kitchens actually thought they were male.

[QueenCrow]

If you like war table mission then Krem gives you 5-10 war table missions, depending on which adviser you use. Iron Bull also gives you 5 war table quests before you complete his personal quest. 

But if you don't give a fig about those, then that doesn't matter.

I hadn't noticed the Krem war table missions.  They count for something and I'd hate to give an unfair negative impression by dismissing them.  Thank you for the information.

[QueenCrow]

There have definitely been women who disguised themselves as men, or simply chose to wear the more practical option of pants vs a dress. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The societies that allowed that behavior didn't relabel those women as men to form a loophole in their own arbitrary gender restrictions. Those that didn't, the women were in a self imposed disguise and anyone who would have sent them back to the kitchens actually thought they were male.

 

Understood.  What I was saying, however, was that there were societies in history who did relabel those women as masculine or "unsexed" to form a loophole in any arbitrary gender restrictions.  So with that inspiration in historical reality, it isn't hard to see that relabeling in fictional Qunari.  At least it's not difficult for me, and others seem to accept the concept also.

[Nefla]

Understood.  What I was saying, however, was that there were societies in history who did relabel those women as masculine or "unsexed" to form a loophole in any arbitrary gender restrictions.  So with that inspiration in historical reality, it isn't hard to see that relabeling in fictional Qunari.  At least it's not difficult for me, and others seem to accept the concept also.

Saying someone is masculine or feminine or androgynous is not the same as saying they're male or female.

[QueenCrow]

Saying someone is masculine or feminine or androgynous is not the same as saying they're male or female.

Well, now we're just speaking of semantics and matters of degrees.  Obviously, I draw my line in the sand at a different point than you.

 

The fictional concept of Aqun-athlok is easy to understand, for me, because I have experienced the concept in historical and modern reality.  

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I'm fairly certain either the Qun would force a gender on you whether you want it or not to fill your role, or bull is lying.

[QueenCrow]

I'm fairly certain either the Qun would force a gender on you whether you want it or not to fill your role, or bull is lying.

Why are you fairly certain of that?

 

Because, as it stands, I'm fairly certain that role in the Qun is determinate of gender.  They are bred for a purpose and the gender dismissal explains a few more things aside from Krem's acceptance by Bull.  It explains the presence of Viddasala in combat rather than in a shop or a kitchen.  It explains why there is no gender restriction on Bull romance.

[Dai Grepher]

Hissrad was hissrading.

 

Viddasala was not a warrior.

[QueenCrow]

 

 

The Qun states that you cannot choose what you are. 

 

 

Here is where we agree 100%.  From that point, the matter is one of interpretation.  I don't believe Krem chose what he is.  He was born that way.  

 

We skirt agreement with the concept that to choose to be something other than what you are leads to frustration.  Krem can't choose to be anything other than what he is. 

 

Edits to add:  The "you look like a woman" dialogue takes on a different connotation when faced with Krem, who looks like a man.

Modifié par Lindraen, 17 octobre 2015 - 03:59 .

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Why are you fairly certain of that?

 

Because, as it stands, I'm fairly certain that role in the Qun is determinate of gender.  They are bred for a purpose and the gender dismissal explains a few more things aside from Krem's acceptance by Bull.  It explains the presence of Viddasala in combat rather than in a shop or a kitchen.  It explains why there is no gender restriction on Bull romance.

Is Talis not a woman?
Is the ben hasrath who interrogated isabella not a woman?

[QueenCrow]

Is Talis not a woman?
Is the ben hasrath who interrogated isabella not a woman?

 The important question is whether the Qunari think people in combat roles are women.

 

 

Edited to change the word "females" to "people" in attempt to think like a Qunari focused on purpose.

Modifié par Lindraen, 17 octobre 2015 - 04:13 .

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

 The important question is whether the Qunari think females in combat roles are women.

Is Vidisalla in a combat role? To me she's a research/container. Not a front line combatant.

[QueenCrow]

Is Vidisalla in a combat role? To me she's a research/container. Not a front line combatant.

I saw her pick up a spear like she knew what she was doing.  Perhaps she blurred the lines there,  leaving yet another thing up for interpretation.

[IanPolaris]

I saw her pick up a spear like she knew what she was doing.  Perhaps she blurred the lines there,  leaving yet another thing up for interpretation.

 

Vidasalla was Ben Hassrath.  In the US Army until recently women by regulation were forbidden from having combat duty positions.  In this it was similiar to the Qun (although to the extend the Qun is).  If you were a woman, you could not be in a combat role.  Period.

 

There were in recent wars a LOT of woman military police, and military police are trained in combat and are quite good at it.  I see the Qun's Ben Hassrath (and both Talis and Vidasalla) in the same way that I see modern era Military Police.  They can fight, but they are NOT a combat role.

[Dai Grepher]

Here is where we agree 100%.  From that point, the matter is one of interpretation.  I don't believe Krem chose what he is.  He was born that way.  

 

We skirt agreement with the concept that to choose to be something other than what you are leads to frustration.  Krem can't choose to be anything other than what he is. 

 

Edits to add:  The "you look like a woman" dialogue takes on a different connotation when faced with Krem, who looks like a man.

 

You may believe that, but the Qun does not. No one chooses what they are. A man cannot help if he is born clever or a fool (Sten gives some other examples I can't remember). So the same applies to gender. In the eyes of the Qunari, Krem was born female and cannot change this fact. Krem's self-perception as male is "frustration" to be corrected.

 

What you said there, according to the Qun, was that Krem lacks mastery of the self. Something the Qunari would help Krem find through reeducation.

 

I don't think Krem looks like a man. But I think Sten would see Krem as a woman who wishes to be a man. Thus, frustration in need of reeducation.

[QueenCrow]

You may believe that, but the Qun does not. No one chooses what they are. A man cannot help if he is born clever or a fool (Sten gives some other examples I can't remember). So the same applies to gender. In the eyes of the Qunari, Krem was born female and cannot change this fact. Krem's self-perception as male is "frustration" to be corrected.

 

What you said there, according to the Qun, was that Krem lacks mastery of the self. Something the Qunari would help Krem find through reeducation.

 

I don't think Krem looks like a man. But I think Sten would see Krem as a woman who wishes to be a man. Thus, frustration in need of reeducation.

Thank you for elaborating on your interpretation of Qun beliefs.  We'll have to agree to disagree on fundamental perception.

 

As always, may the game bring you enjoyment no matter what your interpretation.

[Shechinah]

Is Vidisalla in a combat role? To me she's a research/container. Not a front line combatant.

 

The Ben-Hassrath belong under the Ariqun because they enforce the philosophy and religion of the Qun either through such methods as espionage and education.

 

The Qunari divide the Ben-Hassrath acitivities into distinct categories; "Dangerous Purpose" is the branch that handles the vast majority of intelligence gathering and sabotage, "Dangerous Action" is the branch that appears responsible for enforcement in Qunari-controlled territory with the exception of enforcement such as hunting defectors, and "Dangerous Questions" is the branch which handles conversion and reeducation as well as things that are deemed threats to themselves and others. This branch allows deals with collecting and quarantining magic.

 

Each of the categories have a priest assigned to preside over the category in question and mananging it's actions. The priest for the last mentioned category is named Viddasala so the Vidasala encountered in Trespasser is likely deemed female by the Qun as per her role as a priest and as evident by Bull referring to her as ma'am.  
 

[QueenCrow]

 

 In the US Army until recently women by regulation were forbidden from having combat duty positions.  In this it was similiar to the Qun (although to the extend the Qun is).  If you were a woman, you could not be in a combat role.  Period.

 

 

You're mistaking regulation for reality. 

 

 

http://www.goodreads...ght_Like_Demons

[QueenCrow]

 

 

Each of the categories have a priest assigned to preside over the category in question and mananging it's actions. The priest for the last mentioned category is named Viddasala so the Vidasala encountered in Trespasser is likely deemed female by the Qun as per her role as a priest and as evident by Bull referring to her as ma'am.  
 

Is her being at the front line and picking up a spear in an attempt on Solas' life an intentional inclusion of her role as Vidasala, or is it outside the bounds of her role?

 

I wonder, only because it seems that either Bioware is making mistakes in their storytelling of established lore, is intentionally changing established lore (retcon), or is attempting to further define the boundaries of lore with the inclusion of new information (Aqun-athlok as a Qunari concept)

[Shechinah]

But I think Sten would see Krem as a woman who wishes to be a man.

 

Why would he? Krem considers himself to be a man and  considers himself to be a warrior which he has the skill to prove so Sten would see no contradiction since his issue with the female Warden seems to be that she claims to be both or that a person can be both.
 

[Shechinah]

Is her being at the front line and picking up a spear in an attempt on Solas' life an intentional inclusion of her role as Vidasala, or is it outside the bounds of her role?

 

I wonder, only because it seems that either Bioware is making mistakes in their storytelling of established lore, is intentionally changing established lore (retcon), or is attempting to further define the boundaries of lore with the inclusion of new information (Aqun-athlok as a Qunari concept)

 

Some of the female Ben-Hassrath do learn combative knowledge and how to utilize it by themselves but it is supposedly in a different manner than that of a soldier hence why they do not have a weapon that signifies a soul like the Antaam of the Qun does. I imaging it is more akin to poisons or other subtle ways of dealing with violent issues on one's own. Tallis may not be the proper example to indicate what the common teachings of combat these female members of the Ben-Hassrath recieves as it seems to be implied that she learned much of her skill from the life she had prior to the Qun.  

 

In short, the Ben-Hassrath seem to be allowed to edge a bit outside the usual restriction which may likely be because their purpose and role is to gather intelligence or handle conversions which can be accomplished through non-combative methods.     

 

As for the Viddasala from the Trespasser, she did seem to know how to handle a spear but whether that was learned as a part of her Ben-Hassrath training or something she learned on her own is something I am not so sure of.

[Dai Grepher]

Why would he? Krem considers himself to be a man and  considers himself to be a warrior which he has the skill to prove so Sten would see no contradiction since his issue with the female Warden seems to be that she claims to be both or that a person can be both.
 

 

Because Krem is biologically female.
 

[Rekkampum]

The whole idea of the Qun just relabeling people as a different gender based on their job is just idiotic to me. The Qunari used to seem super harsh but at least logical. There have been plenty of cultures where women aren't allowed to fight and whatever social and cultural things grew from that, it was based on the core instinct that women must be protected because they're more reproductively valuable than men. A womb is precious and you're not going to throw it away just because the woman is good at fighting. If you're not at some level basing your gender roles on the preservation of your species then your gender roles and restrictions are pointless and make no sense. Why would the Qun proclaim that women can under no circumstances be fighters and then immediately flip it around and be like "well we'll just call them men" who are they trying to fool with that? What loophole are they trying to make in their own culture and for what reason? The Qunari are logical, mind controlling, and forbid individuality. They would have no use for gender roles, only biological sex for baby making purposes. A logical culture (if you set aside reproduction value) would assess every person individually (which we already know they do) and assign them roles based on what they're best at. They wouldn't arbitrarily restrict by gender. This whole concept felt so forced to me because of how illogical it was. David Gaider said in one of the threads on the matter that they hadn't thought of the Aqun Athlok concept when making DA:O or DA2 and to me it really shows. It seems tacked on and contradictory. I know they wanted to show acceptance of transgender people, and that's awesome but do it in a way that makes sense. Have it not be an issue in the non-Qun cultures of Thedas, have Bull as an individual be supportive and protective of Krem, but don't shoehorn in a concept that doesn't make sense and doesn't mesh with what we know of the Qun.

 

The number of people who are in the LGBT community are an extreme minority. I'm pretty sure their existence will not threaten any species in any way. While this is nonetheless speculation, I'd like to imagine that Aqun-Athloks are not common. Also, some of my tribal nations traditionally believe there are not two, but four​ genders. We have many different names for them, but the concept in general remains the same. There are also other numerous real life cultures in which one's biological sex is often differentiated from their gender identity and yet, the Qunari society reflecting this somehow seems "illogical"? I'm also pretty sure several people in this forum would likely dispute your claim that the Qun is based on logic. If such were the case, I'm certain they wouldn't be brainwashing dissenters in re-education camps or lobotomizing them to uphold their beliefs in the "infallibility" of their religion.

[Shechinah]

Because Krem is biologically female.
 

 

Which would not matter if the Qun defines the gender identity of a person according the role of the person and not according to their biological sex.

 

Post #62 is a bit lengthy on the subject but it provides a few of my arguments on this topic if you care to give it a read. It also has some speculation on how this different perception of gender could have likely arisen because of the Qunari's strict need to adhere to the word of the Qun.