271 réponses à ce sujet

[QueenCrow]

Some of the female Ben-Hassrath do learn combative knowledge and how to utilize it by themselves but it is supposedly in a different manner than that of a soldier hence why they do not have a weapon that signifies a soul like the Antaam of the Qun does. I imaging it is more akin to poisons or other subtle ways of dealing with violent issues on one's own. Tallis may not be the proper example to indicate what the common teachings of combat these female members of the Ben-Hassrath recieves as it seems to be implied that she learned much of her skill from the life she had prior to the Qun.  

 

In short, the Ben-Hassrath seem to be allowed to edge a bit outside the usual restriction which may likely be because their purpose and role is to gather intelligence or handle conversions which can be accomplished through non-combative methods.     

 

As for the Viddasala from the Trespasser, she did seem to know how to handle a spear but whether that was learned as a part of her Ben-Hassrath training or something she learned on her own is something I am not so sure of.

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question.  What you say seems reasonable and makes sense.

 

P.S.  On a side note, there's nothing that I find more trustworthy than a person who says they aren't sure when they aren't sure.  Because of your response, I find your informative voice more reliably informed.

[Rekkampum]

Some of the female Ben-Hassrath do learn combative knowledge and how to utilize it by themselves but it is supposedly in a different manner than that of a soldier hence why they do not have a weapon that signifies a soul like the Antaam of the Qun does. I imaging it is more akin to poisons or other subtle ways of dealing with violent issues on one's own. Tallis may not be the proper example to indicate what the common teachings of combat these female members of the Ben-Hassrath recieves as it seems to be implied that she learned much of her skill from the life she had prior to the Qun.  

 

In short, the Ben-Hassrath seem to be allowed to edge a bit outside the usual restriction which may likely be because their purpose and role is to gather intelligence or handle conversions which can be accomplished through non-combative methods.     

 

As for the Viddasala from the Trespasser, she did seem to know how to handle a spear but whether that was learned as a part of her Ben-Hassrath training or something she learned on her own is something I am not so sure of.

 

Female Ben-Hassrath are allowed to fight in defense of the Qun, but they aren't considered warriors, since that isn't their primary role. Perhaps combat skill is merely a tool akin to the other skills they learn as part of their duty.

[nightscrawl]

You know, you do have a point.  Aside from the discussion going on here, which I find interesting, it dawned on me reading your post that I hired Bull and the Chargers initially thinking that the mercs were a group I could call into a fight, rather like the allies I collected in DAO and called in for the final fight scene.

 

Nope, with the exception of the Qun alliance scene on the Storm Coast when they become a liability, they just sit around the tavern while on Inquisition payroll, don't they?  And it doesn't matter what gender any of them are.  I didn't hire them this time around because Bioware made the disadvantageous in combat.

 

Apologies if this was mentioned already.

 

After each major mission you can talk to Krem and ask him if there is anything the Chargers can do and he has various war table operations throughout the game. But war table ops certainly aren't unique to the Chargers, and each follower has their own set of ops that you can do throughout the game. I do like Krem's ops though because, like the post-Adamant one, it keeps alive the fact that the mission was more than just a place we went to and killed things, it's an actual place that exists (in the world) and is still there even if the player is no longer concerned with it.

[Rekkampum]

Apologies if this was mentioned already.

 

After each major mission you can talk to Krem and ask him if there is anything the Chargers can do and he has various war table operations throughout the game. But war table ops certainly aren't unique to the Chargers, and each follower has their own set of ops that you can do throughout the game. I do like Krem's ops though because, like the post-Adamant one, it keeps alive the fact that the mission was more than just a place we went to and killed things, it's an actual place that exists (in the world) and is still there even if they player is no longer concerned with it.

 

There's a few you can pick up right after the first major mission if you've recruited them.

[QueenCrow]

Apologies if this was mentioned already.

 

After each major mission you can talk to Krem and ask him if there is anything the Chargers can do and he has various war table operations throughout the game. But war table ops certainly aren't unique to the Chargers, and each follower has their own set of ops that you can do throughout the game. I do like Krem's ops though because, like the post-Adamant one, it keeps alive the fact that the mission was more than just a place we went to and killed things, it's an actual place that exists (in the world) and is still there even if they player is no longer concerned with it.

 

 Thank you.  After talking with Krem at the wrong time and getting nothing but commentary, I kind of assumed he was there for atmosphere like some of the others in Haven and Skyhold.  That assumption was incorrect, making what I said about the Chargers just sitting around unfair.  I truly appreciate the schooling.

[duckley]

 Thanks - I didn't know this about Krem. Wont be doing those missions, but nice to know that there is some purpose for the group.

[Nefla]

 

The number of people who are in the LGBT community are an extreme minority. I'm pretty sure their existence will not threaten any species in any way. While this is nonetheless speculation, I'd like to imagine that Aqun-Athloks are not common. Also, some of my tribal nations traditionally believe there are not two, but four​ genders. We have many different names for them, but the concept in general remains the same. There are also other numerous real life cultures in which one's biological sex is often differentiated from their gender identity and yet, the Qunari society reflecting this somehow seems "illogical"? I'm also pretty sure several people in this forum would likely dispute your claim that the Qun is based on logic. If such were the case, I'm certain they wouldn't be brainwashing dissenters in re-education camps or lobotomizing them to uphold their beliefs in the "infallibility" of their religion.

 

Yes, the act of relabeling someone a different gender because they do a certain job is super illogical. If Aqun Athloks are so rare, why do they feel the need to have that classification? Why not simply make exceptions for women who are good at fighting or men who are good at child rearing or whatever, why relabel them? It's not like our society where gender comes with social stereotypes and expectations, you do and think and be what they tell you to or you're brainwashed or killed. The Qunari have been portrayed as an unemotional, almost borg-like people who have no personal freedoms. Everything we know about them is based on logic, not creativity, emotion, freedom, or spirituality.

 

-They assign jobs to every single person based on what they're best at: logical

-They waste nothing. Criminals and such are brainwashed into becoming productive members of society again or are lobotomized and used as manual labor rather than dying and wasting a resource or languishing in a jail and not only wasting themselves but the people needed to maintain the prison as well: logical

-They have a selective breeding program to refine the best traits in their people: logical

-Each person is expected to follow their assigned role and orders to the letter. No slacking, no mistakes made because personal choice made someone think they could wait longer before ordering supplies for their bread or experiment with something new: logical

-Children are raised collectively by trained professionals rather than their parents: logical

 

None of that stuff takes emotion, freedom, or personal expression into account. A logical decision would be to sort everyone of both genders into what job they do best without bringing gender into it. An emotional decision would allow and accept someone transgender to live as the gender they identify as. The Aqun Athlok thing is neither of these. If I was exceptionally good at fighting and was assigned as a soldier, what purpose is there to calling me a man rather than simply a female soldier? I wouldn't suddenly start looking or acting male (though I doubt Qunari have much in the way of gendered mannerisms and social expectations), I wouldn't think of myself as male, and I could still very much get pregnant and give birth. 

 

[Rekkampum]

"If Aqun-Athloks are so rare, why do they feel the need to have that classification?"

 

Because they exist? And as an explanation that allows their worldviews about gender roles to remain true without being false.

 

"The Qunari have been portrayed as an unemotional, almost borg-like people who have no personal freedoms. Everything we know about them is based on logic, not creativity, emotion, freedom, or spirituality."

 

Even though their entire​ system of gov't and society comes from a single religious text, they have special rites to honor the dead as well as those they care for, and even have - esp. among the Antaam- the belief that their tool is an essential part of them and that they are useless without it. Did you ever pay attention to what Sten said? His weapon's name is literally Qunlat for "soul". Gaider also made it painfully clear that the Qun is not atheistic. I'd definitely recommend you actually venture into the lore on them in-depth because you clearly are ignoring a wealth of information that runs contrary to your assumptions.

 

[snip]

 

That's not a list of "logical" decisions. The "logical" choice would be for a child to be raised by its parents, but their society operates differently. And certain skills and tasks cannot be quantified by genetics no matter how ardently you insist it. I could go on and address your other claims of "logical" choices but that's only going to delve into a pit of relative philosophical arguments.

 

"If I was exceptionally good at fighting and was assigned as a soldier, what purpose is there to calling me a man rather than simply a female soldier? I wouldn't suddenly start looking or acting male (though I doubt Qunari have much in the way of gendered mannerisms and social expectations), I wouldn't think of myself as male, and I could still very much get pregnant and give birth."

And you're making the exact same mistake another poster did, especially with that comic strip. You're assuming that Aqun-Athlok became trans the moment they were assigned that role and are completely misunderstanding how trans identity is constructed. ​We don't miraculously decide to "become" male or female or view ourselves as such; we always have from the moment we were able to understand the concepts and have just as much reflected that. I'd like to imagine that unlike a female Warden, a female Aqun-Athlok obviously identified as male and acted as such while being evaluated by a tamassran (EDIT: Note that this happens during childhood, not when they're adults), especially in a society that stresses rigid understandings of gender roles. A female Aqun-Athlok who became a soldier in the Antaam would have no problem being considered male because they already identify as such. Not to mention automatically considering Qunari who become Aqun-Athlok the gender they identify as allows them to maintain their beliefs about gender without compromising it, in the same way their priests try to explain the prophecies of Koslun that haven't come true yet.

[Nefla]

Look, this isn't about real life transgender people. I feel like a few in this thread are getting worked up and feeling attacked, that's not the case. It's very much logical for children to be raised communally by trained professionals vs parents. A parent raising and shaping and loving their own child, that's an emotional idea (and one that I agree with) but it doesn't guarantee that each child will be raised properly. Some parents will be abusive or neglectful, some will be too lenient or too strict simply be sub par and they will each have a different level of education. Raising them communally would let you start the brainwashing young and make sure each child is as close to the perfect worker bee as you can get. In a thread on this same subject that was made soon after the game came out, David Gaider's replies on the subject didn't lead me to believe that Aqun Athlok were actually transgender, but were instead random biological females who were good at fighting and relabeled as men(whether they liked it or not) as a loophole so they could become soldiers. But also, why would a society that won't let you keep your children, won't let you express romantic love, won't even let you choose your job let you live as something other than your biological sex? Would someone who grew up in a society where the only difference between genders was physical and reproductive even identify as another gender? If there are no gendered clothings, attitudes, mannerisms, social expectations, emotional states, etc...then why? You're looking at it through the lens of our real society rather than this made up one.

[Illegitimus]

The whole idea of the Qun just relabeling people as a different gender based on their job is just idiotic to me. The Qunari used to seem super harsh but at least logical. There have been plenty of cultures where women aren't allowed to fight and whatever social and cultural things grew from that, it was based on the core instinct that women must be protected because they're more reproductively valuable than men. A womb is precious and you're not going to throw it away just because the woman is good at fighting. If you're not at some level basing your gender roles on the preservation of your species then your gender roles and restrictions are pointless and make no sense. Why would the Qun proclaim that women can under no circumstances be fighters and then immediately flip it around and be like "well we'll just call them men" who are they trying to fool with that? What loophole are they trying to make in their own culture and for what reason? The Qunari are logical, mind controlling, and forbid individuality. They would have no use for gender roles, only biological sex for baby making purposes. A logical culture (if you set aside reproduction value) would assess every person individually (which we already know they do) and assign them roles based on what they're best at. T

 

Based on what the Qun think they're good at.  They think gender identification has an impact on whether you'd be suitable for the military.  If someone identified as female and yet was really good at fighting and not much else, they'd probably end up Benn-Hassrath.  

[IanPolaris]

 

 

You're mistaking regulation for reality. 

 

 

http://www.goodreads...ght_Like_Demons

 

 

No, I am not.  I am thinking like a Qunari and to a Qunari, reality IS what the regulations say it is.  As such, no matter how much combat an MP might see, they are not soldiers and thus don't fight.  Why don't they fight?  Because they are not soldiers in a combat role.

 

Yes it's dumb and yes that's why the US Army changed that recently, but that IS the mentality inherent in the Qun.

[Lazengan]

lol stop it with the walking on broken glass act

 

Bioware is pushing a liberal  narrative

 

everyone can see it

[GGGenesis]

Is a liberal narrative really so bad? I'd hate to see a conservative one, oh man, that brings me back memories when I got a letter in the mail saying my marriage is revoked by the Abbot government.

My big problem with how Krem's gender was handled was that Bull spoke on his behalf. That is never right in my books. It's fine when Krem does, but I think cis-splaining is just as awful as mansplaining. And what did Bull even add to the topic? Nothing,nothing that Krem didn't say for himself.

[Kurogane335]

Sten: It was her ignorance we pitied, not her mistake. She believed we hoarded things we cared for as her own people do. We were sorry for her, that she thought only some people were important.[/spoiler]

 

 

I had forgotten about it. It's interesting, because Iron Bull, when you take him to the Tomb of Fairel, makes some remarks about the Qunari not setting traps in the tombs of important peoples.That's probably because for them, no one is important enough to warrant it.

 

 

Will someone take a shot at this please?  If Morrigan is correct and Sten doesn't see her as a woman because she fights, as what does he see her?

 

He doesn't know. Perhaps she is a woman, like the Warden, but she acts like a man. Or she is a man, who think he is a woman. That's why he is confused.

 

 

There have definitely been women who disguised themselves as men, or simply chose to wear the more practical option of pants vs a dress. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The societies that allowed that behavior didn't relabel those women as men to form a loophole in their own arbitrary gender restrictions. Those that didn't, the women were in a self imposed disguise and anyone who would have sent them back to the kitchens actually thought they were male.

 

Some native Americans societies did just that. One was born one gender, then choose to live as another, and he/she was treated as man/woman : https://en.wiktionar...g/wiki/berdache. Perhaps the Qunari acts just like that. We can't know, since we have never seen their society as a whole, just mere glimpses of parts of it.

[QueenCrow]

No, I am not.  I am thinking like a Qunari and to a Qunari, reality IS what the regulations say it is.  

 

 

Alright, you're thinking like a Qunari.  Excellent!  I hope you'll indulge me in a little role play related to the discussion.

 

 

You are a Qunari.  Please explain the Qunari concept of aqun-athlok as if you are explaining to a bas.

[Arisugawa]

Alright, you're thinking like a Qunari.  Excellent!  I hope you'll indulge me in a little role play related to the discussion.

 

 

You are a Qunari.  Please explain the Qunari concept of aqun-athlok as if you are explaining to a bas.

 

While this is going to come off as snarky, I don't really mean it as such.

 

But if you were talking to someone born within the Qun such as Sten, the response will you get will likely be something along the lines of:

 

No, because you insist upon seeing the concept in some manner of parallel to your own people. You have no such parallel.

[QueenCrow]

While this is going to come off as snarky, I don't really mean it as such.

 

But if you were talking to someone born within the Qun such as Sten, the response will you get will likely be something along the lines of:

 

No, because you insist upon seeing the concept in some manner of parallel to your own people. You have no such parallel.

 

Fair enough.  Thinking as a Qunari, if you care to accept the request, please explain the concept of aqun-athlok as if you were explaining to a young Qunari, or someone new to the Qun.

[Nefla]

Some native Americans societies did just that. One was born one gender, then choose to live as another, and he/she was treated as man/woman : https://en.wiktionar...g/wiki/berdache. Perhaps the Qunari acts just like that. We can't know, since we have never seen their society as a whole, just mere glimpses of parts of it.

The choice element is what I'm skeptical about when it comes to the Qunari.

 

1) Is it a choice? Like I've said, I got the impression it was as simple as "you're a woman who's great at fighting, you're retitled as a man as a loophole whether you want it or not. No physical or social changes are made." Someone like Krem who actually identifies as a man, and dresses and acts like one would be fine with this (that is assuming Qunari actually have gendered clothing and behavior). Random woman X who likes being female has to be called a man anyway. This isn't logical or emotional, it's just stupid.

 

2) If I completely misinterpreted David Gaider and it IS actually a choice the Qun allows based on the gender you identify with, then it's a highly emotional idea that respects individuality and free thought on a high level where nothing else in their culture seems to. To me, a seemingly borg-like society would only care about gender as far as what role you play in baby making.

 

 

If Qunari let people choose to live as a different gender it makes more sense than the first option. You wouldn't want your people miserable with the very basics of their life but if Qunari were reasonable like that, why not let you choose the job that makes you happy? Why not let people fall in love, have children with whoever they want, keep and raise those children? I wish the writers had thought everything through and came up with the details of Qunari society when they first came up with them. That way we wouldn't have people arguing over it now. "This statement seems to contradict this concept" or  "this one doesn't necessarily disprove this idea," etc...

[Arisugawa]

The choice element is what I'm skeptical about when it comes to the Qunari.

If Qunari let people choose to live as a different gender it makes more sense than the first option. You wouldn't want your people miserable with the very basics of their life but if Qunari were reasonable like that, why not let you choose the job that makes you happy? Why not let people fall in love, have children with whoever they want, keep and raise those children? I wish the writers had thought everything through and came up with the details of Qunari society when they first came up with them. That way we wouldn't have people arguing over it now. "This statement seems to contradict this concept" or  "this one doesn't necessarily disprove this idea," etc...

 

I don't think an Aqun-Athlok has as much choice as many fans assume.

 

It is more than likely a matter of the Tamassrans within the Ben-Hassrath carefully evaluating the abilities and demeanor of the young, and then making the determination when one is not in line with the other that this child should be considered aqun-athlok and raised as such from that point on.

 

I would imagine there is, unbeknownst to that child, a phase of testing where the Tamassrans gauge how much the child is going to resist the role that they would have otherwise had: a female-born child with soldier tendencies put into commerce or the clergy, etc, or a male-born child with natural counseling ability put into military roles. If the child accepts the typically-gendered role and can excel at it, no change required.  If the child resists the role, demonstrates the inability to learn the necessary skills, or is simply too proficient at the skills of the opposing gender that reeducating them would actually be considered a detriment to the Qun, then the Ben-Hassrath considers the aqun-athlok option.

 

It fits with the idea of best determining how this child is going to serve the Qun and is a more efficient way of gaining their commitment to the Qun rather than have to go through the reeducation process. It's difficult to really frame this in terms of how we, as the audience, see male and female roles and perceive male and female relationships. We need to eliminate the idea that an aqun-athlok is someone born one sex living as another sex. It's more pervasive and complete than that in terms of Qunari society.

 

An aqun-athlok, to the best of my understanding, isn't accepted as the opposite sex, they simply are the opposite sex for all practical purposes that do not involve procreation. The difference in terminology is important to grasping how fully the Qun embraces the idea. This is one of the reasons that Iron Bull can't explain it in satisfactory terms to us, and honestly, cannot explain it in manner than even Krem understands. Krem doesn't understand it - he sees it in a far more romantic and accepting way and would probably be just as appalled by the reality of the aqun-athlok life as he is by the restrictions in Tevinter.

 

It's difficult for us, (and for people outside of the Qun within the setting), to conceive of a society where things like gender are determined entirely by the role one plays within society and having the individuals within that society utterly accept that without question.

 

Just my $.02 on the idea.

[Vit246]

lol stop it with the walking on broken glass act

 

Bioware is pushing a liberal  narrative

 

everyone can see it

 

Nothing exactly wrong with a liberal narrative. The problem is, Bioware loves to push such an overbearing bleeding heart narrative that the writers want me to accept without question that I feel compelled to resist it out of spite.

[Neria]

In fact, if you turn "male" and "female" into "yang" and "yin", it's much easier to understand how the Qunari perceive gender, and why Aqun-Athlok exist.

Yang is aggressiveness, Yin is calm.

Soldiers need to be agressives. But not bakers, nor priest, nor the "mother".

I think that's why Sten is so confused by a female warden. To him, a woman is calm, composed, it's a motherly figure. But a mother who brings death ? No, unthinkable, it cannot be combined with the concept of war, blood and gore.

 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say

[Heimdall]

Nothing exactly wrong with a liberal narrative. The problem is, Bioware loves to push such an overbearing bleeding heart narrative that the writers want me to accept without question that I feel compelled to resist it out of spite.

This is actually pretty typical of the Bioware writing style.  They rarely do things with much subtlety.  If they want the player to know something, they have a tendency to beat them over the head with it to be sure they got it.

 

That's why I always thought IT was so laughable when people started coming up with it after ME3.

[Rekkampum]

Look, this isn't about real life transgender people. I feel like a few in this thread are getting worked up and feeling attacked, that's not the case. It's very much logical for children to be raised communally by trained professionals vs parents. A parent raising and shaping and loving their own child, that's an emotional idea (and one that I agree with) but it doesn't guarantee that each child will be raised properly. Some parents will be abusive or neglectful, some will be too lenient or too strict simply be sub par and they will each have a different level of education. Raising them communally would let you start the brainwashing young and make sure each child is as close to the perfect worker bee as you can get. In a thread on this same subject that was made soon after the game came out, David Gaider's replies on the subject didn't lead me to believe that Aqun Athlok were actually transgender, but were instead random biological females who were good at fighting and relabeled as men(whether they liked it or not) as a loophole so they could become soldiers. But also, why would a society that won't let you keep your children, won't let you express romantic love, won't even let you choose your job let you live as something other than your biological sex? Would someone who grew up in a society where the only difference between genders was physical and reproductive even identify as another gender? If there are no gendered clothings, attitudes, mannerisms, social expectations, emotional states, etc...then why? You're looking at it through the lens of our real society rather than this made up one.

 

"Look, this isn't about real life transgender people. I feel like a few in this thread are getting worked up and feeling attacked, that's not the case."

You aren't saying anything offensive about transfolk so I doubt anyone would. It's been pretty civil given the subject matter.

​

"A parent raising and shaping and loving their own child, that's an emotional idea (and one that I agree with) but it doesn't guarantee that each child will be raised properly."

Neither does raising them communally. I'm honestly trying to see how not having your actual parents take care of you is objectively better; that's something too subjective to determine.

 

"But also, why would a society that won't let you keep your children, won't let you express romantic love, won't even let you choose your job let you live as something other than your biological sex?"

Romance isn't something they forbid, so much as less interested in due to their obligations to the Qun. But to answer your question, it solves the inevitable dilemma that comes with a child being evaluated and excelling in a role normally associated with the opposite gender. If - and this is speculation of course - an Aqun-Athlok is in fact trans in the way we'd think of it, then we should remind ourselves that they probably view their masculinity and femininity within the context of how their society constructed it. That includes behaving, acting, and pursuing things associated with the respective gender. It's not a choice, but an obligation, as each person has an inherent purpose in their beliefs. Let's remind ourselves that Aqun-Athok are literally viewed as men or women and would likely be treated exactly like a man or woman would, as well as expected to perform the roles and duties of said-gender; it's the only way their teachings and beliefs about gender roles can remain true.

 

"Would someone who grew up in a society where the only difference between genders was physical and reproductive even identify as another gender? If there are no gendered clothings, attitudes, mannerisms, social expectations, emotional states, etc...then why? You're looking at it through the lens of our real society rather than this made up one."

 

This is all speculation, and you contradicted lore. In the Qun, there are very clear attitudes and social expectations men and women have; the very roles they've been given boil down to essentialist beliefs about the duties of that gender. We don't know much else about the Qunari to talk without conjecture.

 

Also, virtually every society in Dragon Age lore is based on or reflects sociopolitical systems in real life, even down to the titles some of them have and the annoyingly anachronistic French bard. All we have are the lenses of real societies to draw examples from in order to gauge a basic understanding about these cultures. They're obviously not exactly the same, but in some cases are very similar, and I'd conjecture that unless it's noted explicitly, there are ways we can relate to them based on what we've experienced ourselves.

[Vit246]

This is actually pretty typical of the Bioware writing style.  They rarely do things with much subtlety.  If they want the player to know something, they have a tendency to beat them over the head with it to be sure they got it.

 

That's why I always thought IT was so laughable when people started coming up with it after ME3.

I'm reminded of a quote from Mean Girls:

 

Inquisitor: So, if you're a woman, why are you passing as a man?

Iron Bull:  Ermahgerd Inquisitor! You can't just ask people why they're passing as men!

 

You're right, Bioware is not subtle at all. And since you brought up Mass Effect, I'm reminded of the ME1 conversation with Tali about the Geth and how the only options are to disagree with her about the Geth, either aggressive chastisement or polite disagreement. There is no room for interpretation or ambiguity or complexity. It is their way or the highway.

[IanPolaris]

Alright, you're thinking like a Qunari.  Excellent!  I hope you'll indulge me in a little role play related to the discussion.

 

 

You are a Qunari.  Please explain the Qunari concept of aqun-athlok as if you are explaining to a bas.

 

It is a lie I tell Bas in order to think the Qun is more accepting and less threatening.