It is a lie I tell Bas in order to think the Qun is more accepting and less threatening.
Well, that's an answer. A lie, when the truth is that you, as a Qunari of course, are threatening and not accepting.
I'm sure you, as a Qunari of course, are not alone and perhaps that explains why Bioware insures that in the presence of threat and absence of acceptance, tolerance is forced.
Adam Orzel,
This afternoon, my husband and I were discussing this idea of cross-gender fictional characters. We both recognized that this isn't new, and certainly isn't new in the fantasy genre and in fiction that has, without a doubt, inspired the Dragon Age world.
An example is Eowyn of Rohan in Lord of the Rings. She, born a woman, took on the semblance of a man in world in which women were expected not to fight. She dressed as a man, lived as a man in camp while moving toward the Battle of Plennor Fields. She used a man's name - Dernhelm - and during the battle, she fought like a man. No one knew she was a woman until after she declared herself to the Witch King of Angmar.
I suppose, during this the time when this particular story was published, cross gender activity and homosexuality wasn't the political hot topic that it is today. People with trans-gender inclinations, and homosexual people were trapped, often by law, in the closet. Perhaps it was more acceptable also because Eowyn only crossed gender boundaries in order to fight for her people. It was temporary and she kept it a huge secret (thereby not being "in your face") and refrained from hammering an audience over the head with anything other than the idea that she was definitely doing something wrong that had be kept in the closet.
Today is a different world, but it's the same world in many cases. Today the world is different because the issue of civil rights granted to people who tempt traditional gender boundaries is a political fight that is in the news every evening. The world today is the same as before because people respond to the forced tolerance (note, I'm not using the world acceptance, which can never be forced) with resistance and spite.
To you, personally, I hope that you can forgive Bioware writers for being slightly defensive when it comes to a hot-button political issue. In my opinion, they have cause. And also in my opinion, sometimes positive change can be affected by letting human issues out of the closet for consideration.
I wish you well.
There's nothing in game to suggest it but to me it seems logical given what we do know that qunari children are seen as genderless and it's only as they grow older, displaying male or female traits that the tamassrans start treating them as such.
I just wish BioWare had given us more of a clear picture rather than little bits here and there that often seem contradictory.
I just wish BioWare had given us more of a clear picture rather than little bits here and there that often seem contradictory.
That's my only problem with the concept of Aqun-Athlok. Something as big and significant as that - especially given what we learned through Sten and the Qunari in DA 2 - needs more than a few throwaway lines in a conversation that may not even take place if you haven't recruited the Chargers.
Bioware has to walk the fine line between being inclusive and violating obscenity laws in countries where nontraditional sexuality is still criminalized.
Bioware has to walk the fine line between being inclusive and violating obscenity laws in countries where nontraditional sexuality is still criminalized.
No they don't 
who cares about those countries? They can't make up a very large part of overall sales.
Bioware has to walk the fine line between being inclusive and violating obscenity laws in countries where nontraditional sexuality is still criminalized.
Which explains why they had Zevran in DA:O.
That's my only problem with the concept of Aqun-Athlok. Something as big and significant as that - especially given what we learned through Sten and the Qunari in DA 2 - needs more than a few throwaway lines in a conversation that may not even take place if you haven't recruited the Chargers.
OK, I'm lost. What makes it big and significant? That conversation mainly cleared up something for me I never comprehended. Sten didn't think women could be mages. I couldn't figure out how that worked. Now I know. They just don't think of them as women.
OK, I'm lost. What makes it big and significant? That conversation mainly cleared up something for me I never comprehended. Sten didn't think women could be mages. I couldn't figure out how that worked. Now I know. They just don't think of them as women.
It's important because it completely changes the nature and outlook of how we are to regard the Qun. it's gone from a fascist-regressive system full of contradictions and hypocrisy to being...dare I say it?.....progressively liberal and a system one can admire.
I don't welcome the change.
OK, I'm lost. What makes it big and significant? That conversation mainly cleared up something for me I never comprehended. Sten didn't think women could be mages. I couldn't figure out how that worked. Now I know. They just don't think of them as women.
It's significant - for me at least - because it provides another window into their criminally underdeveloped society re: how they conceptualize gender. I find it quite fascinating because it adds complexity to what otherwise could be seen as a fairly simplistic portrayal in previous games. Aside from that I honestly don't see how people get the impression they're somehow more liberal or even progressive for not being the caricatures they imagined them to be.
An example is Eowyn of Rohan in Lord of the Rings. She, born a woman, took on the semblance of a man in world in which women were expected not to fight. She dressed as a man, lived as a man in camp while moving toward the Battle of Plennor Fields. She used a man's name - Dernhelm - and during the battle, she fought like a man. No one knew she was a woman until after she declared herself to the Witch King of Angmar.
That's not an example of transgenderism though. She disguised herself as a male so she could go into battle and so no one would recognize her. She was a princess after all. Who would suspect a guy of being a princess? She never thought of herself as a man.
OK, I'm lost. What makes it big and significant? That conversation mainly cleared up something for me I never comprehended. Sten didn't think women could be mages. I couldn't figure out how that worked. Now I know. They just don't think of them as women.
No, Sten didn't think female mages were capable of fighting because fighting is a man's role.
It is significant because Qunari philosophy is clear on gender being determined by biological sex. Bull's claim makes it seem like the Qunari will ignore this in order to accommodate certain people, which would be absurd.
Aside from that I honestly don't see how people get the impression they're somehow more liberal or even progressive for not being the caricatures they imagined them to be.
Because Origins presented the Qunari as rigid and unyielding on gender and gender roles, and now they are trying to make them look like they accept transgenderism just so the game doesn't offend that group.
Because Origins presented the Qunari as rigid and unyielding on gender and gender roles, and now they are trying to make them look like they accept transgenderism just so the game doesn't offend that group.
Sorry bud, but I definitely think you're way off. They offended us when they had Serendipity in DA II. So badly that the writer actually came on these forums to apologize when a person posted about it. I'd say Krem -as far as game portrayals are concerned- was their apology. I also love it when people assume that there's always some kind of agenda when things run counter to their expectations.
No they don't
It's not so much that the devs needn't "care" about such countries because there's not enough sales revenue from them. They should just stay true to their own artistic endeavor- period- rather than trying to cater to the delicate sensibilities of countries where- in today's day and age- homosexuals are literally publicly hanged and women are confined to the house unless accompanied by a man (among other things). If people from such countries even have access to DA, much less play it (possibly against the law), then they're not going to buy it and be fans of it while wishing for a mod that would clothe the female characters from head-to-toe. They probably already want a foray into the kind of society possible outside their countries.
That's not an example of transgenderism though. She disguised herself as a male so she could go into battle and so no one would recognize her. She was a princess after all. Who would suspect a guy of being a princess? She never thought of herself as a man.
You're right, and perhaps I didn't do a very good job of communicating that Eowyn is an example of a fictional character who acceptably crosses gender lines. Such acceptability required lying to King, kin, and companions, and only cross-dressing and assuming a male identity for a short duration.
Perhaps today's standards are different than 1950's and a character can exist who is more than a tourist of gender crossing (please don't misunderstand me, I absolutely adore Eowyn), and honest when the subject is relevant to companions.
Thank you for the kind response.Adam Orzel,
This afternoon, my husband and I were discussing this idea of cross-gender fictional characters. We both recognized that this isn't new, and certainly isn't new in the fantasy genre and in fiction that has, without a doubt, inspired the Dragon Age world.
An example is Eowyn of Rohan in Lord of the Rings. She, born a woman, took on the semblance of a man in world in which women were expected not to fight. She dressed as a man, lived as a man in camp while moving toward the Battle of Plennor Fields. She used a man's name - Dernhelm - and during the battle, she fought like a man. No one knew she was a woman until after she declared herself to the Witch King of Angmar.
I suppose, during this the time when this particular story was published, cross gender activity and homosexuality wasn't the political hot topic that it is today. People with trans-gender inclinations, and homosexual people were trapped, often by law, in the closet. Perhaps it was more acceptable also because Eowyn only crossed gender boundaries in order to fight for her people. It was temporary and she kept it a huge secret (thereby not being "in your face") and refrained from hammering an audience over the head with anything other than the idea that she was definitely doing something wrong that had be kept in the closet.
Today is a different world, but it's the same world in many cases. Today the world is different because the issue of civil rights granted to people who tempt traditional gender boundaries is a political fight that is in the news every evening. The world today is the same as before because people respond to the forced tolerance (note, I'm not using the world acceptance, which can never be forced) with resistance and spite.
To you, personally, I hope that you can forgive Bioware writers for being slightly defensive when it comes to a hot-button political issue. In my opinion, they have cause. And also in my opinion, sometimes positive change can be affected by letting human issues out of the closet for consideration.
I wish you well.
It's important because it completely changes the nature and outlook of how we are to regard the Qun. it's gone from a fascist-regressive system full of contradictions and hypocrisy to being...dare I say it?.....progressively liberal and a system one can admire.
I don't welcome the change.
Pfeh. Not in my eyes. They remain an oppressive dictatorship that runs on creepy brainwashing.
*snip*
I agree wholeheartedly that this is a matter that needs to be put out there to ensure the rights of the community, I should know; I live in an Islamic country. And while I think Krem is a beautiful example of how to portray transgender people in video games, Iron Bull's reaction is not, because I feel the best way to gain our rights is to show people that we are just like them, normal, and that we deserve to be treated just like normal people are. Iron Bull's response was hostile because he immediately assumed hostility on my Inquisitor's part.
In Thedas he's probably ran into so much hate toward Krem (or others like Krem) that he probably does expect the worst, thus instantly on the defense. Perhaps if your Inq. is of a noble origin, he'd assume hostility first.
Because Origins presented the Qunari as rigid and unyielding on gender and gender roles, and now they are trying to make them look like they accept transgenderism just so the game doesn't offend that group.
Except that Sten's confusion actually makes sense now we know the context and more about the Qun, which we didn't in Origins. In his mind;
Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden therefore is a man.
Priests are women. Leliana is a priest. Leliana is therefore a woman.
But then, when that notion is challenge by the Warden's insistence that she is a woman. Cue internal logic starting to go haywire;
The Warden claims to be a woman. Women cannot be warriors. The Warden cannot be a warrior.
The Warden clearly is a warrior. The Warden cannot be a woman. The Warden is Aqun-Athlok?
The Warden says they do not want to be a man. The Warden wants to be a "woman that fights". The Warden cannot be Aqun-Athlok.
Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden must be a man.
(Parshaara. Bas are confusing.)
We know that Sten's confusion was never about the Warden being a warrior, that part was always accepted. That he followed up that question by asking whether the Warden wanted to be a man, would suggest that the concept of someone being transgendered is not an alien concept to the Qun.
Sten's only confusion was the Warden's insistence about being a woman, something that he could not rationally quantify under the Qun as he understood it. It's a cultural misunderstanding at work, since he doesn't explain the rationale at work and how the Qunari organise themselves into the triumvirate, so that certain genders have associated roles and that under the Qun, women do not fight as warriors but instead as priests.
Sten's an intelligent guy, but he was sent to Ferelden to kick arse, take names and complete the job he was given, not spend all day explaining the complicated inner workings of the Qun to foreigners. The Arishok says pretty much the same in DA2, that it's not his job to explain that stuff.
They're soldiers, not school teachers.
Everything would be a lot easier if we'd all just accept that the people of Thedas are the most socially progressive medieval society in the history of medieval RPGs. That's probably what the writers want anyway.
Everyone gets along in Thedas. Just think of Thedas as Canada, but 10x more progressive. There is absolutely zero struggle with sexism or racism. Except when there is racism on elves, dwarves, and Qunari, but those don't cause controversies or reflect anyway over to the real world because there are no elves, dwarves, or Qunari in the real world, therefore they're not offending anyone.
Just enter into a Dragon Age game with that mindset and these things won't bother you as much.
Sorry bud, but I definitely think you're way off. They offended us when they had Serendipity in DA II. So badly that the writer actually came on these forums to apologize when a person posted about it. I'd say Krem -as far as game portrayals are concerned- was their apology. I also love it when people assume that there's always some kind of agenda when things run counter to their expectations.
Yeah, and NOW they are trying to appease that group of people. This has nothing to do with Krem. This is about BioWare changing the established facts regarding the Qun on gender perception and gender roles.
Except that Sten's confusion actually makes sense now we know the context and more about the Qun, which we didn't in Origins. In his mind;
Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden therefore is a man.
Priests are women. Leliana is a priest. Leliana is therefore a woman.
But then, when that notion is challenge by the Warden's insistence that she is a woman. Cue internal logic starting to go haywire;
The Warden claims to be a woman. Women cannot be warriors. The Warden cannot be a warrior.
The Warden clearly is a warrior. The Warden cannot be a woman. The Warden is Aqun-Athlok?
The Warden says they do not want to be a man. The Warden wants to be a "woman that fights". The Warden cannot be Aqun-Athlok.
Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden must be a man.
(Parshaara. Bas are confusing.)
We know that Sten's confusion was never about the Warden being a warrior, that part was always accepted. That he followed up that question by asking whether the Warden wanted to be a man, would suggest that the concept of someone being transgendered is not an alien concept to the Qun.
Sten's only confusion was the Warden's insistence about being a woman, something that he could not rationally quantify under the Qun as he understood it. It's a cultural misunderstanding at work, since he doesn't explain the rationale at work and how the Qunari organise themselves into the triumvirate, so that certain genders have associated roles and that under the Qun, women do not fight as warriors but instead as priests.
Sten's an intelligent guy, but he was sent to Ferelden to kick arse, take names and complete the job he was given, not spend all day explaining the complicated inner workings of the Qun to foreigners. The Arishok says pretty much the same in DA2, that it's not his job to explain that stuff.
They're soldiers, not school teachers.
Wrong, his mindset was that F!Warden, Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne are women, and therefore cannot fight. Also, they cannot be men. He clearly says so.
He asks why their women would wish to be men, and says that makes no sense. A woman wishing to be a man can only lead to frustration. A woman becoming a man is as attainable as a woman living on the moon.
At no time does he call any of these females a "man", or even one who lives as the other gender. You are not remembering what Sten actually said.
Yeah, and NOW they are trying to appease that group of people. This has nothing to do with Krem. This is about BioWare changing the established facts regarding the Qun on gender perception and gender roles.
I'm sorry, but introducing a new concept that isn't in any way critical or relevant to the overarching plot is not something done to "appease" any one. The Qun's views on gender roles are still the same; they're just more complex than you assumed they were now that we've learned a little more about them.
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