271 réponses à ce sujet

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Except that Sten's confusion actually makes sense now we know the context and more about the Qun, which we didn't in Origins. In his mind;

 

Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden therefore is a man.

Priests are women. Leliana is a priest. Leliana is therefore a woman.

 

But then, when that notion is challenge by the Warden's insistence that she is a woman. Cue internal logic starting to go haywire;

 

The Warden claims to be a woman. Women cannot be warriors. The Warden cannot be a warrior.

The Warden clearly is a warrior. The Warden cannot be a woman. The Warden is Aqun-Athlok?

The Warden says they do not want to be a man. The Warden wants to be a "woman that fights". The Warden cannot be Aqun-Athlok.

Warriors are men. The Warden is a warrior. The Warden must be a man.

 

(Parshaara. Bas are confusing.)

 

We know that Sten's confusion was never about the Warden being a warrior, that part was always accepted. That he followed up that question by asking whether the Warden wanted to be a man, would suggest that the concept of someone being transgendered is not an alien concept to the Qun.

 

Sten's only confusion was the Warden's insistence about being a woman, something that he could not rationally quantify under the Qun as he understood it. It's a cultural misunderstanding at work, since he doesn't explain the rationale at work and how the Qunari organise themselves into the triumvirate, so that certain genders have associated roles and that under the Qun, women do not fight as warriors but instead as priests.

 

Sten's an intelligent guy, but he was sent to Ferelden to kick arse, take names and complete the job he was given, not spend all day explaining the complicated inner workings of the Qun to foreigners. The Arishok says pretty much the same in DA2, that it's not his job to explain that stuff.

 

They're soldiers, not school teachers.

Aqun-w/e aren't trans though.
It's almost forced a transgender. Krem is a man as much as cass is a man to them, which is clearly wrong.

It's still convoluted but w.e

[Dai Grepher]

I'm sorry, but introducing a new concept that isn't in any way critical or relevant to the overarching plot is not something done to "appease" any one. The Qun's views on gender roles are still the same; they're just more complex than you assumed they were now that we've learned a little more about them.

 

Wrong. Bull introduced a concept that is the complete opposite of what Sten stated in Origins. They did this to make it seem like the Qunari accept transgenderism.

[Sifr]

Wrong, his mindset was that F!Warden, Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne are women, and therefore cannot fight. Also, they cannot be men. He clearly says so.

 

He asks why their women would wish to be men, and says that makes no sense. A woman wishing to be a man can only lead to frustration. A woman becoming a man is as attainable as a woman living on the moon.

 

At no time does he call any of these females a "man", or even one who lives as the other gender. You are not remembering what Sten actually said.

 

Actually, that's not true.

 

Leliana fighting as a woman makes sense to Sten because she self-identifies as a priest. Under the Qun, we know that the Ben-Hassrath fall under the priesthood and are the religious enforcers, spies and assassins. Leliana having those exact same skills does not raise any red flags to him, because to him, that is what a priest does.

 

Morrigan and Wynne fight as well, but since we do not know that female Saarebas don't serve with male Saarebas, we cannot say that the idea of a female mage does not exist under the Qun. If we assume that the reason that only men serve as part of the military is because the Qunari believe they are physically more adept and capable, we cannot use that rationale for mages because magical strength is not determined by gender or physical prowess.

 

What Sten says (and doesn't say) has some nuances to it, if you look at the words he uses.

 

His confusion about women wishing to be men is true, because anyone who self-indentifies as the opposite gender has (likely) always done so and never considered themselves to be anything else. That person does not wish to be another gender, they already are, they just happen to be in the wrong body.

 

Sten is correct in saying that one cannot change how they were born. But that does not mean that he is refuting the idea that transgendered people do not exist under the Qun, just stating the obvious that it's impossible to transition from one to another (even if it was possible via magic, the Qunari would never allow it) so desiring that would only lead to frustration and resentment.

 

Of course Sten doesn't call the other women in the party, "men" or suggest they're aqun-athlok, because they're not. There's a very clear difference between the other women in camp and the female Warden, as he cannot categorise her under any criteria that he is familiar with. As we see repeatedly in the conversation, Sten seems more inclined to doubt the woman part, but never the warrior.

 

Warden: I'm a woman. And I'm fighting.

Sten: One of those things can't be true.

 

One would imagine that if Shale ever regained her "humanity" and became a dwarf once more, Sten would have the same difficulty understanding her as a female warrior. But as as a Golem, she's technically a genderless construct and so her fighting is performing the role she was created to do.

[Illegitimus]

Wrong. Bull introduced a concept that is the complete opposite of what Sten stated in Origins. They did this to make it seem like the Qunari accept transgenderism.

 

No it isn't.  Not the complete opposite.  They are still imposing a rigid idea of what gender goes with what occupation.  

[Nefla]

David Gaider already said they hadn't come up with the Aqun Athlok concept when DA:O and Sten were written, so you can try to wiggle his dialogue to fit the changes but it was originally meant just as it sounds. Women don't fight, can't become men, and no one can change their role.

[Illegitimus]

David Gaider already said they hadn't come up with the Aqun Athlok concept when DA:O and Sten were written, so you can try to wiggle his dialogue to fit the changes but it was originally meant just as it sounds. Women don't fight, can't become men, and no one can change their role.

 

I didn't say otherwise.  But the Aqun Athlok thing is still not the exact opposite of it.  

 

Warden: I'm a woman. And I'm fighting.

Sten: One of those things can't be true.

 

Sten will only accept one of two answers as fitting into his Qun-shaped world-view.  Either the Warden must deny that she is in fact "fighting".  She's doing something else like "vigorous diplomacy" or "high risk intelligence gathering".  People and darkspawn frequently from steel she is thrusting into their vial organs but she is not fighting them.  Or she must say "I am actually a man despite appearances."  Either answer resolves his dilemma.   Note that this is not the same as "becoming a man".  You have to claim that you were always a man despite the boobs and the biological capacity to give birth because you always had the right psychology to fight.  

[Dai Grepher]

Actually, that's not true.

 

Leliana fighting as a woman makes sense to Sten because she self-identifies as a priest. Under the Qun, we know that the Ben-Hassrath fall under the priesthood and are the religious enforcers, spies and assassins. Leliana having those exact same skills does not raise any red flags to him, because to him, that is what a priest does.

 

Morrigan and Wynne fight as well, but since we do not know that female Saarebas don't serve with male Saarebas, we cannot say that the idea of a female mage does not exist under the Qun. If we assume that the reason that only men serve as part of the military is because the Qunari believe they are physically more adept and capable, we cannot use that rationale for mages because magical strength is not determined by gender or physical prowess.

 

What Sten says (and doesn't say) has some nuances to it, if you look at the words he uses.

 

His confusion about women wishing to be men is true, because anyone who self-indentifies as the opposite gender has (likely) always done so and never considered themselves to be anything else. That person does not wish to be another gender, they already are, they just happen to be in the wrong body.

 

Sten is correct in saying that one cannot change how they were born. But that does not mean that he is refuting the idea that transgendered people do not exist under the Qun, just stating the obvious that it's impossible to transition from one to another (even if it was possible via magic, the Qunari would never allow it) so desiring that would only lead to frustration and resentment.

 

Of course Sten doesn't call the other women in the party, "men" or suggest they're aqun-athlok, because they're not. There's a very clear difference between the other women in camp and the female Warden, as he cannot categorise her under any criteria that he is familiar with. As we see repeatedly in the conversation, Sten seems more inclined to doubt the woman part, but never the warrior.

 

Warden: I'm a woman. And I'm fighting.

Sten: One of those things can't be true.

 

One would imagine that if Shale ever regained her "humanity" and became a dwarf once more, Sten would have the same difficulty understanding her as a female warrior. But as as a Golem, she's technically a genderless construct and so her fighting is performing the role she was created to do.

 

Sten has the same complaint about Leliana, and she also admits that she is not a priest.

 

You are injecting your own opinion into what Sten says, and ignoring what he says about what people are and how it cannot be chosen. The size of their hands, clever or foolish, hair color, etc. People simply are, and that includes physical sex and gender. To this extent, there is no "wrong body".

 

Didn't write that Sten proves transgender people don't exist under the Qun, just that their wish to be the opposite gender only leads to frustration. Bottom line, Sten would see Krem as a woman wishing to be a man.

 

He gives the F!Warden the same treatment as the other women in the party.

 

He never doubts the woman part. He is implying that the warrior part is untrue. This is all just Sten's roundabout Qunari way of saying, "A woman's place is in the kitchen".

[Dai Grepher]

I didn't say otherwise.  But the Aqun Athlok thing is still not the exact opposite of it.  

 

Warden: I'm a woman. And I'm fighting.

Sten: One of those things can't be true.

 

Sten will only accept one of two answers as fitting into his Qun-shaped world-view.  Either the Warden must deny that she is in fact "fighting".  She's doing something else like "vigorous diplomacy" or "high risk intelligence gathering".  People and darkspawn frequently from steel she is thrusting into their vial organs but she is not fighting them.  Or she must say "I am actually a man despite appearances."  Either answer resolves his dilemma.   Note that this is not the same as "becoming a man".  You have to claim that you were always a man despite the boobs and the biological capacity to give birth because you always had the right psychology to fight.  

 

It is the exact opposite.

 

The F!Warden being a woman is definately true based on what she was born as. Therefore the implication is that she is not fighting, or should not be fighting since fighting is the ACTION, not the inborn trait.

 

Let me put this into perspective for you from Sten's point of view.

 

I am a man. I am pregnant.

[QueenCrow]

Apologies.  On further consideration, I have decided to withdraw from the discussion.

 

Peace, everyone! 

[RoughTumble]

It could be that Bull isn't really Qunari.  It could be that he's already Tal Vashoth and his justification and acceptance of Krem is proof of his divergence from the Qun.  It could be that if the Qunari ran into Krem they'd try to change him or kill him.

 

Maybe in a future game it'll be made clear that if you want people like Krem in your world, you have to kill everything under the Qun.

[Nefla]

Apologies.  On further consideration, I have decided to withdraw from the discussion.

 

Peace, everyone! 

Same here *opens parachute*

[Sifr]

Sten has the same complaint about Leliana, and she also admits that she is not a priest.

 

Leliana states she's not a priest, but she does tell him that she was a lay sister when he asks what her actual position in the Chantry was, thus making it clear that she was part of the priesthood to some extent. That she has all the skills of an assassin is more than enough reason why we can imagine that Sten believes her to be some kind of bas equivalent to the Qunari Ben-Hassrath.

 

Sten's complaint is that Leliana is fighting on the frontlines as a warrior, which as he points out (again) is a man's job. Given what we now know about the Qunari, it actually does make sense why he feels that Leliana should not be there, because you don't put your spies on the battlefield. That would explain the reasoning behind why the Qunari sent warriors to Ferelden to find out about the Darkspawn, rather than risk any of their spies.

 

You are injecting your own opinion into what Sten says, and ignoring what he says about what people are and how it cannot be chosen. The size of their hands, clever or foolish, hair color, etc. People simply are, and that includes physical sex and gender. To this extent, there is no "wrong body".

 

Didn't write that Sten proves transgender people don't exist under the Qun, just that their wish to be the opposite gender only leads to frustration. Bottom line, Sten would see Krem as a woman wishing to be a man.

 

That Sten is a man of a few words, not a native speaker of the common tongue and that he does not explain the Qun to anyone, would require we take apart what he says to find out the meaning, no?

 

I already pointed out that obviously one cannot chose to be something other than what they were born, but that does not necessarily mean what they were born as was the correct thing, which is what the concept of Aqun-Athlok acknowledges.

 

What you're saying is that Sten would force anyone gay, lesbian or transgendered to conform, based solely on the sexual characteristics they were born with? Because if so, then the Qunari are deluded and missing the point, because no-one choses their gender identity or sexual orientation.

 

He gives the F!Warden the same treatment as the other women in the party.

 

He never doubts the woman part. He is implying that the warrior part is untrue. This is all just Sten's roundabout Qunari way of saying, "A woman's place is in the kitchen".

 

That Sten opens the very topic by questioning why the Warden looks like a woman, that would indicate that Sten's doubt lies far more in the direction of the Warden being a woman than a warrior.

 

(Even though the writers hadn't worked out all the kinks of the Qun in Origins, there is still nothing inherently contradictory with what little Sten says on the matter of gender roles and professions, it still works with the new information we have)

[Dai Grepher]

Leliana states she's not a priest, but she does tell him that she was a lay sister when he asks what her actual position in the Chantry was, thus making it clear that she was part of the priesthood to some extent. That she has all the skills of an assassin is more than enough reason why we can imagine that Sten believes her to be some kind of bas equivalent to the Qunari Ben-Hassrath.

 

Sten's complaint is that Leliana is fighting on the frontlines as a warrior, which as he points out (again) is a man's job. Given what we now know about the Qunari, it actually does make sense why he feels that Leliana should not be there, because you don't put your spies on the battlefield. That would explain the reasoning behind why the Qunari sent warriors to Ferelden to find out about the Darkspawn, rather than risk any of their spies.

 

 

That Sten is a man of a few words, not a native speaker of the common tongue and that he does not explain the Qun to anyone, would require we take apart what he says to find out the meaning, no?

 

I already pointed out that obviously one cannot chose to be something other than what they were born, but that does not necessarily mean what they were born as was the correct thing, which is what the concept of Aqun-Athlok acknowledges.

 

What you're saying is that Sten would force anyone gay, lesbian or transgendered to conform, based solely on the sexual characteristics they were born with? Because if so, then the Qunari are deluded and missing the point, because no-one choses their gender identity or sexual orientation.

 

 

That Sten opens the very topic by questioning why the Warden looks like a woman, that would indicate that Sten's doubt lies far more in the direction of the Warden being a woman than a warrior.

 

(Even though the writers hadn't worked out all the kinks of the Qun in Origins, there is still nothing inherently contradictory with what little Sten says on the matter of gender roles and professions, it still works with the new information we have)

 

Actually Sten asked her what a "lay sister" was. She told him. He asked if she dabbled in priesthood then. She replies no, that she did none of their duties. He then confirms that she was not a priest, did none of their duties, and yet she lived among them. She said, that was pretty much right. He then asks if Leliana was a house guest of the Chantry. She says, "Sort of". In a following banter he gives her the "Why are you here" business. Sifr, you're a smart guy as I can tell from other topics, but you're totally wrong on this particular issue.

 

Sten isn't a native speaker of the common tongue, but he knows it well. And it's fine to take what he says and examine it, but that doesn't mean to try and twist his words to mean something different.

 

The aqun-athlok concept is what's in question here. You can't apply it to anything Sten says until you determine there is some kind of loophole in his belief. Also, the term didn't exist at the time game-wise.

 

Yes, Sten sees biological males as males, biological females as females, and the act of sex as a guided activity that perpetuates the race's superior genetics. So yes, he would force non-heterosexuals to embrace their birth sex and gender as well as viable opposite sex partners, if it were up to him. It's up to the Tamaasrans though, so he would just send those people to them and they would force them to live according to what they think is right. As for what people are born as or can and can't choose, that's your bas opinion, and you're entitled to reeducation.

 

He doesn't question the F!Warden's gender. He makes a statement, "You look like a woman". He doesn't ask if the Warden is a man or a woman.

 

Iron Bull claims that those under the Qun who live as the opposite gender will be called aqun-athlok. He also claims that they are real [gender they want to be]. Sten says those who wish to live as the opposite gender face only frustration, and would be equally able to live on the moon. Total contradiction.

 

But my theory on this is that Bull was lying to make Krem feel better. Aqun-athlok may actually exist, but if so they are the ones who face frustration as Sten said, and in that case the Tamaasrans would reeducate them to embrace physical fact and accept their gender roles.

[Qun00]

I found great satisfaction in the dialogue option "You don't have to pass up as a man to be a mercenary".

[RoseLawliet]

The apparent retcon annoyed me greatly, mostly because it felt like trying to make an objectionable philosophy less so. However, I now think it can make perfect "sense" in a weird Qun-y way.

 

We know the Qunari like to think they make absolute sense. We know the philosophy set down in the Tome of Koslun is their foundation. I also think it's a safe assumption that Thedosian societies in general lack a distinction between biological sex and gender. We can imagine, then, that way way back when Koslun was writing, his main goal was (as someone mentioned a few pages ago) to delineate jobs/roles based on what would be most advantageous to the continuation of the qunari race. This would mean physically-demanding and dangerous jobs go to the people without wombs, who were identified as male because of biology. This leads to lists like "women are artisans, priests, etc." and "men are warriors". Remember, this is coming from a much older society that lacks a sex and gender distinction.

 

This society would also fanatically hold to the infallibility of the Qun, and want to adhere to it in all things. The Qun is always right. The Qun cannot be wrong. If it looks like something actually falsifies a facet of the Qun, obviously people weren't properly thinking about how the Qun describes reality. This is where we see the problem with the idea of Qunari being a logical people who make sense. They don't want to make sense, they want to follow their code. Therefore if a Qunari meets someone with ovaries, but who knows how to fight (and fights well), this person must be male. The Qun said so. But this person is not male biologically, which starts the logic bomb. The Qunari would have had to create the idea of gender being separate from sex, and not to be nice or accommodating, but to force reality to adhere to the Qun.

 

The short of it, I guess, is that Qunari don't "make sense", they have instead slowly developed a culture that excels at mental gymnastics while also being completely unaware of doing so.

[Dai Grepher]

The apparent retcon annoyed me greatly, mostly because it felt like trying to make an objectionable philosophy less so. However, I now think it can make perfect "sense" in a weird Qun-y way.

 

We know the Qunari like to think they make absolute sense. We know the philosophy set down in the Tome of Koslun is their foundation. I also think it's a safe assumption that Thedosian societies in general lack a distinction between biological sex and gender. We can imagine, then, that way way back when Koslun was writing, his main goal was (as someone mentioned a few pages ago) to delineate jobs/roles based on what would be most advantageous to the continuation of the qunari race. This would mean physically-demanding and dangerous jobs go to the people without wombs, who were identified as male because of biology. This leads to lists like "women are artisans, priests, etc." and "men are warriors". Remember, this is coming from a much older society that lacks a sex and gender distinction.

 

This society would also fanatically hold to the infallibility of the Qun, and want to adhere to it in all things. The Qun is always right. The Qun cannot be wrong. If it looks like something actually falsifies a facet of the Qun, obviously people weren't properly thinking about how the Qun describes reality. This is where we see the problem with the idea of Qunari being a logical people who make sense. They don't want to make sense, they want to follow their code. Therefore if a Qunari meets someone with ovaries, but who knows how to fight (and fights well), this person must be male. The Qun said so. But this person is not male biologically, which starts the logic bomb. The Qunari would have had to create the idea of gender being separate from sex, and not to be nice or accommodating, but to force reality to adhere to the Qun.

 

The short of it, I guess, is that Qunari don't "make sense", they have instead slowly developed a culture that excels at mental gymnastics while also being completely unaware of doing so.

 

Even if all that were true, I think it would be far simpler for the Qunari to reeducate female warriors to be artisans, priests, etc, and prohibit them from being warriors no matter how skilled they are. That solves the problem without redefining what biological sex and gender mean. It also matches what they do with every individual of every profession. You do what you are good at under the Qun. You do not try to be something you aren't no matter how much you may want to. A farmer cannot be a merchant, a baker cannot be a warrior.

[Illegitimus]

Sten has the same complaint about Leliana, and she also admits that she is not a priest.

 

You are injecting your own opinion into what Sten says, 

 

No.  I'm not.  My opinion is irrelevant.  At the time Sten was doubtless written to be saying no woman could be a fighter and no woman could be a mage.  There is however, a serious problem with that statement...which is that mages are not created by choice and being one can't be assigned by governmental authority.  So whoever wrote that, just didn't think it through.  Sten's statement must in fact be factually wrong even for Qun society unless you play some kind of semantic game where in Sten's eyes, a female saarebas is not a woman.  And that's where I think later on the concept of aqun athlok came from.  Because if you can ignore biological sex in one case, why not others?  

 

Even if all that were true, I think it would be far simpler for the Qunari to reeducate female warriors to be artisans, priests, etc, and prohibit them from being warriors no matter how skilled they are. That solves the problem without redefining what biological sex and gender mean. It also matches what they do with every individual of every profession. You do what you are good at under the Qun. You do not try to be something you aren't no matter how much you may want to. A farmer cannot be a merchant, a baker cannot be a warrior.

 

 And a saarebas can not be a woman.  Even though half of them are in fact female.  

[In Exile]

Ugh. I have to do this again.

 

So many people fundamentally fail to understand the most basic tenet of the Qun: it is powered exclusively by one quarter insane Troll Logic and three quarters No True Scotsman Fallacy ("NTS"). Let's spell it out. The NTS provides:

 

When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").

 

Let's turn to DA2 and the Arishok. Hawke confronts the Arishok about the Tal-Vasoth. Hawke asks "How many people have you lost to the Tal-Vasoth?". The question is awkwardly phrased, but is meant to say "How many deserters have you had?" The Arishok answers "None." This is obviously complete and utter nonsense. His answer is that he lost no Qunari to the Tal-Vasoth, because a "true" Qunari would never become one. 

 

This same nonsense applies to every single category in the Qun. And it is what applies to men and women. No "true" woman, for example, is a "warrior", so then quite evidently if someone is a warrior then they are a woman.

 

Talking about the Qun as if it wasn't powered by nonsense logic misses the point of the Qun. 

 

 

Sten's statement must in fact be factually wrong even for Qun society unless you play some kind of semantic game where in Sten's eyes, a female saarebas is not a woman.  

That's exactly right. A Saarbas is a "thing" (literally - that is what the word "bas" means). There's no gender - it's total gibberish.

[Andreas Amell]

Let me start by saying I completely love the Dragon Age universe.

When my Inquisitor asked Bull about who Krem was and how his sexual identity worked, I always felt that Bull's responses to my Inquisitor were overly aggressive, as if he thought my inquisitor was against Krem by virtue of the questions he was asking. And you might say: "but you as the player already know all about Transgenderism, so why would you ask about it?".
Yes, I do know a lot about transgenderism in real life, but my inquisitor doesn't, this is the first time he has ever seen someone like Krem and he was just curious.

I'm not against the fact that Dragon Age: Inquisition is a very politically correct game, what I'm against is the fact that whenever the player tries to question some of that correctness, the game proceeds to bash your head in as if you are some raging homophobe.

It was so bad for me that on subsequent playthroughs, I stopped recruiting Iron Bull altogether due to the fact that I hate his character greatly now. It might seem like a bit much, but I was so aggravated by the way this was handled, Iron Bull was needlessly aggressive towards my inquisitor for simply asking a question. It's a shame considering that before Inquisition came out, I thought that Iron Bull would be one of my favorite characters, but now I have nothing but contempt for him.

And before you say anything, know that I'm gay and in no way against transgender people, I just wish that this was handled in a more sensible, less aggressive way.

 

I wasn't bothered by his condescending tone because he's Qunari. I expected that, despite his roguish comments, because he's revealing more about his culture than previous characters.

 

Critics are always using words like 'politically correct' or 'SJW'. I say this game is a contemporary fantasy. It's more contemporary than the Witcher series, which is a complete nod to 'old country' stories and values. But players who are bothered by all this are given the chance to learn why guys like the Iron Bull believe these things. Truth only has value if you question it.  

[In Exile]

I wasn't bothered by his condescending tone because he's Qunari. I expected that, despite his roguish comments, because he's revealing more about his culture than previous characters.

 

Critics are always using words like 'politically correct' or 'SJW'. I say this game is a contemporary fantasy. It's more contemporary than the Witcher series, which is a complete nod to 'old country' stories and values. But players who are bothered by all this are given the chance to learn why guys like the Iron Bull believe these things. Truth only has value if you question it.  

 

He's protective. He jumps at it because he's worried about it being an attack. It's a realistic scene - because sometimes people are rude and jumpy about a sensitive topic, even when the question is well-meaning. 

[Dai Grepher]

No.  I'm not.  My opinion is irrelevant.  At the time Sten was doubtless written to be saying no woman could be a fighter and no woman could be a mage.  There is however, a serious problem with that statement...which is that mages are not created by choice and being one can't be assigned by governmental authority.  So whoever wrote that, just didn't think it through.  Sten's statement must in fact be factually wrong even for Qun society unless you play some kind of semantic game where in Sten's eyes, a female saarebas is not a woman.  And that's where I think later on the concept of aqun athlok came from.  Because if you can ignore biological sex in one case, why not others?  

 

 

 And a saarebas can not be a woman.  Even though half of them are in fact female.  

 

He didn't say no woman could be a mage. He calls Wynne "mage". His answer "of course not" is in reply to Wynne asking if the Qunari have no female mages, no female warriors. He was answering the last part of the question. Obviously there are such things as female mages, but Sten believes that none of them are meant for battle. And their word for a mage is saarebas. So I doubt he minds calling females mages, as that is just a descriptor in the common tongue. He would consider them saarebas who are not fit for battle, as opposed to the male saarebas who can be used in battle. His problem with Wynne is that she is in battle, not that she is a mage.

 

Saarebas simply means "dangerous thing". Females can be "bas", thus magic using bas can be saarebas.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

What you're saying is that Sten would force anyone gay, lesbian or transgendered to conform, based solely on the sexual characteristics they were born with? Because if so, then the Qunari are deluded and missing the point, because no-one choses their gender identity or sexual orientation.

 

 

 

I would not of course be surprised to learn that Qunari are deluded and missing the point.  

 

It is the exact opposite.

 

The F!Warden being a woman is definately true based on what she was born as. Therefore the implication is that she is not fighting, or should not be fighting since fighting is the ACTION, not the inborn trait.

 

Let me put this into perspective for you from Sten's point of view.

 

I am a man. I am pregnant.

 

I have no idea either which, if either, of those things is true.  And apparently neither does Sten:   

 

• Sten: That has yet to be proven.
• Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?
• Sten: Either.
• Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.

 

 

He didn't say no woman could be a mage. He calls Wynne "mage". His answer "of course not" is in reply to Wynne asking if the Qunari have no female mages, no female warriors. He was answering the last part of the question. Obviously there are such things as female mages, but Sten believes that none of them are meant for battle. A

 

That would raise the question of what else they could possibly be good for.  

[Dai Grepher]

 

Ugh. I have to do this again.

 

So many people fundamentally fail to understand the most basic tenet of the Qun: it is powered exclusively by one quarter insane Troll Logic and three quarters No True Scotsman Fallacy ("NTS"). Let's spell it out. The NTS provides:

 

When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").

 

Let's turn to DA2 and the Arishok. Hawke confronts the Arishok about the Tal-Vasoth. Hawke asks "How many people have you lost to the Tal-Vasoth?". The question is awkwardly phrased, but is meant to say "How many deserters have you had?" The Arishok answers "None." This is obviously complete and utter nonsense. His answer is that he lost no Qunari to the Tal-Vasoth, because a "true" Qunari would never become one. 

 

This same nonsense applies to every single category in the Qun. And it is what applies to men and women. No "true" woman, for example, is a "warrior", so then quite evidently if someone is a warrior then they are a woman.

 

Talking about the Qun as if it wasn't powered by nonsense logic misses the point of the Qun. 

 

 

That's exactly right. A Saarbas is a "thing" (literally - that is what the word "bas" means). There's no gender - it's total gibberish.

 

 

No, the Arishok's answer is that nothing is lost when weakness abandons the Qun. They lost weak Qunari, which the Arishok does not see as a loss. Others like Sten do at least worry when a Qunari goes missing. They prefer to hope that the Qunari died, and did not desert. The Arishok simply does not worry. He sees their betrayal as a positive because they were not fit to be part of the body in the first place. That might be how Sten sees it as well, but prefers that the Qunari did remain worthy to their deaths. The Arishok makes it clear that every Qunari has a choice to either accept their role and succeed, or deny it and die. Those who deny cease to be Qunari, so the No True Scotsman argument is actually true in this case.

 

So it isn't nonsense, and it doesn't apply to every case, especially cases of gender and biological sex, which are completely different from the classification of Tal-Vashoth.

 

You meant, "if someone is a warrior then they are a man"? Well again, the Arishok's quote on Tal-Vashoth does not apply here. If a woman wants to be a warrior, it isn't a case of her never being a woman in the first place. It's a case of a woman trying to be a man, as Sten said. The solution is to reeducate her to accept her true role, which would be something non-military. The fact would be that she was born a female, and she cannot choose this. All she can do is choose to accept that role and succeed in it, or deny it and die.

 

Oh? And are you saying the Qunari see the Qun that way too, as being powered by nonsense logic? And if they see it as perfectly logical, then they miss the point of the Qun? No, the Qun is based on cold logic and observable fact. It does not care about emotion or desire. It is not interested in experimenting with new forms of social action. It clings to the ordered way of doing things as instructed by the Tome of Koslun.

 

Sten never denied that Wynne was a saarebas, nor a mage.

[Dai Grepher]

I have no idea either which, if either, of those things is true.  And apparently neither does Sten:   

 

• Sten: That has yet to be proven.
• Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?
• Sten: Either.
• Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know.

 

 

 

That would raise the question of what else they could possibly be good for.  

 

You are referring to a different case than the F!Warden. In her case it was proven that she was female. In the case of "those around", Sten did not know if those were in fact female or that they could fight.

 

Female saarebas are kept alive regardless, simply because the Qunari believe in not wasting a life. As for what they could possible be good for, the lore doesn't really say. Perhaps healing magic? Or maybe lighting fires for industrial use. Or maybe making it rain on crops.

[Illegitimus]

You are referring to a different case than the F!Warden. In her case it was proven that she was female. 

Sten disagrees

 

"I don't understand. You look like a woman."

 

If he considered it proven, he would say "You are a woman".  

 

 

Female saarebas are kept alive regardless, simply because the Qunari believe in not wasting a life. As for what they could possible be good for, the lore doesn't really say. Perhaps healing magic? Or maybe lighting fires for industrial use. Or maybe making it rain on crops.

 

Actually I'm onfident that Qunari would kill a life that serves no function.  Retirement is not a thing for them.  Which would of course be an alternative approach.  Since a female mage is useless and dangerous (and there's no way the Qunari would let a mage heal or screw around with the weather for agricultural purposes.  According to Sten they regard mages as dangerous feral creatures) they kill them all.  It could have been an answer to the riddle posed by Sten.   But it would be kind of dumb and wasteful.