29 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicurs]

Just played Leviathan DLC, so did this big fleshy reaper just tell me they made synthetic versions of themselves to stop organics from making synthetics that would kill them all. But didn't they just do the same thing the "lesser" organics did by making something that almost killed them all. All powerful fishy monsters makes the same mistake they tried to fix....WTF!!!! Then in the end of the game space kids all like we are here to stop chaos, REAPER BLOWS UP SOME SHIP IN THE BACKGROUND!!! Then he is all like oh ya see we stick your data in these thingies and make room for more life, just to kill that life cause ya know they don't need to make the synthetics to kill themselves cause we're here. Geth don't even look threatening to me their actually helping me, so IDK what this crack pots talking about. So in the end pick the red ending cause forget all that, damn space kid has some undiagnosed insanity.

 

 

Oh then he is all like I'm here to keep the peace between synthetics and organics, Kaboooom!!!!! more dead organics in the lovely war torn background!!!! kids doin a sh*t job....

 

This game... 

 

Oh yeah I forgot, so red ending all synthetics die, yes? Why not I don't know fire that thing up every hundred years or so and look no more problem and no more dead everybody.

[Dantriges]

Even if the Crucibe can be fired several times or rebuilt (Citadel inclusive) after firing, you still don´t want to use it as anything else than as a dire emergency button. You also wreck the relay network after all.

[Jukaga]

They didn't make the Reapers, they made an AI to manage their empire for them. It created the Reapers, then harvested the Leviathans.

[Dantriges]

Yeah the problem seems to be bad coding (if solution = act against creator think again), lack of oversight and a decadent empire. With active mnanagement, people researching AIs wouldn´t be a problem. Or they were greedy and wanted the added benefit of the synthetic workforce without a plan how to mitigate the drawbacks.

[themikefest]

Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome. The big head. Everything they say and do is right no matter what. One of them thought it would be a good idea to create a thing, known as the intelligence, to oversee the synthetic and organic problem. They gave the thing the power to find a solution at any cost.  Yeah. Look how well that worked. Stupid is that stupid does. Leviathan wakes up one morning and realizes its species is being slaughtered. Before it could react, its thrown into a giant blender. They now float around inside the first reaper called Harbinger.

 

After a while, the intelligence gets bored waiting for civilizations to become advanced enough to harvest that it ordered its reapers to build the relay network to make the cycles shorter and more efficient. So instead of the cycles taking however long, they now take 50 000 years having civilizations follow the path that the thing wants them to follow

 

Along comes the crucible. Crucible say hello to the intelligence that is now calling itself catalyst. The catalyst, formerly known as the intelligence, realizes what its been doing all this time doesn't work. The catalyst sees an organic that can choose one of the solutions, but the thing wants the organic to pick synthesis. It tells the organic that it can choose destroy it and its toys, but says it won't solve the problem because the chaos will return. The created will rebel against its creator. It mentions the organic can control its toys. It doesn't want to be replaced, but it would have to accept it. It tells the organic that synthesis is the final evolution of all life. Its the ideal solution.

[von uber]

Leviathan suffers from being a justification dlc put out to try and ram in some emergency lore into a story; lore that should have been part of the base game and foreshadowed far earlier.
Still, has some great segments to it and some brilliant environments. Desponia being especially noteworthy, as well as the mining facility.

[IndianaJonesYay]

Yeah, Leviathan wasn't, I think, Bioware's best showing. Consider even the ending (so weird!). How come the ball-indoctrination effect works on one Brute, but not both? But then, when a giant Reaper comes into the atmosphere, the balls go into effect, and the Reaper crashes into the sea? What gives? If the indoctrination can take over a Reaper, why didn't Leviathan make a bunch of spheres and use them to take the Reapers back over?

 

My fave is when a writer keeps his or her bad guy's backstory shrouded in mystery. Keeps them evil, dark, mysterious the Joker in Dark Knight is my favorite example). Leviathan knocked that out and turned the Catalyst into a dark version of the geth.

[Reorte]

Yeah, Leviathan wasn't, I think, Bioware's best showing.

Perhaps but I still rank it as a pretty good DLC despite those flaws. There's plenty of Mass Effect that keeps going just from getting the immediate picture right despite the problems (who is it who's got the sig about the Wile E Coyote Theory?)

[von uber]

It's my favourite DLC for ME3 despite the obvious lore issues.

[IndianaJonesYay]

So interesting how different DLCs appeal to different people. Aside from Citadel, my favorite DLC of the trilogy is Overlord. When I say that, people give me this strange "Are you really a vorcha who believes pain is inherently essential to communication?" look.

 

Leviathan definitely had a lot of right things going. The cliff-mounted trailers while being shot by harvesters, the shipwrecked ships, the T-GES (though they seem never to pronounce the E) facility, all were fun missions with some neat and original elements.

[gothpunkboy89]

Leviathan suffers from being a justification dlc put out to try and ram in some emergency lore into a story; lore that should have been part of the base game and foreshadowed far earlier.
Still, has some great segments to it and some brilliant environments. Desponia being especially noteworthy, as well as the mining facility.

 

 

I don't see it that way.  Reaper's back story was never explained or even hinted at during any of the game trilogy. This DLC gives them the background they lack.  Shows and explains why they seem to think the harvesting of each cycle is a good thing. Other wise there is no real explination besides for the lolz.

[CYRAX470]

Was there ever anyone who tried to work IT around or with the Leviathan DLC?

[ArabianIGoggles]

Was there ever anyone who tried to work IT around or with the Leviathan DLC?

Yep.  I had a conversation a while back with someone that firmly believes IT is still as relevant as it was pre-extended cut.  I had to slowly back away.

[Monica21]

So interesting how different DLCs appeal to different people. Aside from Citadel, my favorite DLC of the trilogy is Overlord. When I say that, people give me this strange "Are you really a vorcha who believes pain is inherently essential to communication?" look.

 

Leviathan definitely had a lot of right things going. The cliff-mounted trailers while being shot by harvesters, the shipwrecked ships, the T-GES (though they seem never to pronounce the E) facility, all were fun missions with some neat and original elements.

 

The only drawback for me for Overlord is having to use the Hammerhead. The story itself is actually very good and quite heart-breaking.

[IndianaJonesYay]

The only drawback for me for Overlord is having to use the Hammerhead. The story itself is actually very good and quite heart-breaking.

 

Okay, be honest: how many space cows did you turn into hood ornaments?

 

(Honestly, I only did it once by accident; I felt so bad after that I don't think I pushed left trigger the whole time).

 

Fighting the robots and turrets in the Hammerhead was pretty annoying, that's true.

[Monica21]

Okay, be honest: how many space cows did you turn into hood ornaments?

 

Bwahahaha.... Quite a few, and definitely on purpose. I needed to hear that "Galactic Humane Society" line.

[IndianaJonesYay]

Shoot, now I gotta go YouTube that... the things you miss being a nice guy.

[SwobyJ]

The large scale fight against the Cycles (Reapers, Leviathans, Harvest) is one against Order. Large as in galactic cosmic.

 

Leviathan is Order. Hobbes.

 

Reapers are Order. Dealers of determined Death.

 

Sovereign. Harbinger. Impending doom. Ruler over all.

 

The Harvest is the Reaper contract with the Intelligence to prune the worst of organic life's outcomes - specifically its supposed inevitability to create synthetics that end them.

 

But the system has become so bogged down by itself that it now only Reapers in order to Reap, above all else. The Catalyst seeks a solution, but the Reapers barely are (Harbinger could be argued to be trying, but his solution still seems to focus on organics becoming Reapers no matter what).

 

Like Dragon Age has been showing with its own narrative, Mass Effect so far has been about how systems of Order inevitably may require Chaos to compensate and spur change, even if it comes down to just one/a few special anomalous individuals to make that change.

 

Ironically and sadly, however, while Shepard (no matter the ending interpretation) may have given the galaxy a chance and may have broken the cycle, the larger problem (depending on perception) may not be fixed. Though that's okay since he's not necessarily defined as a fixer. Destroy opens the galaxy up to at least a version of the problem that the Leviathans were trying to address in the first place. AKA death of all organics. Control has organics potentially down an inevitable path to becoming of the Reapers. AKA removal of all organics. Synthesis has everyone, including Reapers, become something new. AKA ending of all organics.

 

So we just have to have faith, hope, desire to resist this possible truth of the universe . Shepard stopped the Reapers. Shepard addressed the problem. Shepard saved the galaxy. That had to have counted for something.

 

But Mass Effect itself, and much of its trilogy's plot and themes, may not NECESSARILY be utterly over, even with Andromeda and much more of a fresh start. Shepard took necessary action for everyone (himself, his companions, his species, the galaxy's species, and even the Reapers), but this doesn't mean that the cosmic scale dilemma is resolved, only addressed in a moral vacuum and without warning and time to deliberate. I would not be surprised to learn of a blowback.

[SwobyJ]

Was there ever anyone who tried to work IT around or with the Leviathan DLC?

 

Yep.  I had a conversation a while back with someone that firmly believes IT is still as relevant as it was pre-extended cut.  I had to slowly back away.

 
Sorry, but I'm one of those people. Or rather, I at least find it fine and fun and easy to imagine a connection between what Leviathans and what Reapers may be doing.
 

 
"Your memories give voice to our words."
 
Leviathan enthrallment is a less advanced form of what indoctrination may be capable of.
 
We are effortlessly placed in a mind realm in which the Leviathans are able to communicate with Shepard's mind through use of his legitimate memories. People, objects, environments (if we count the deep sea), and all in the context of explaining itself to Shepard (so using characters and objects relevant to the search for Leviathan).
 
Now, something about/in Shepard resists. Whether its something presently beyond our knowledge, or just a fact that Shepard has the mix of biological composition with neutral changes (formed by age and experience and emotion, etc) required to have the precise 'will' to resist, he resists and can take himself out of the enthrallment, at the 'cost of blood' (nosebleed, potentially worse for his brain/life if he kept it up if we buy how the orbs can affect people).
 
 
This fits with IT and even my offshoot of it. Destroy is the representation of Shepard (or whatever the eff is in the rubble) resisting strongly enough to break free. It is Aria breaking out of the cage even when it seemed impossible. It is lashing out at the oppressors and connecting a blow. It does something to break out of the simulation.
 
Now for all we know, even if this is correct, it could be at the 'cost of blood' and Shepard could be bleeding out not just in his torso, but in his own brain.
 
A mass effect. 
 
http://medical-dicti...om/mass effect 

....
 
In that case, 'Shepard' might be considered dead no matter what. Even if revived, and assisted by technology (beyond even Lazarus Project means?), if he requires that technology to stay alive (unlike the 'revenant' that ME2-ME3 Shepard might be considered), then it will be quite debatable wtf he is. There is event he possibility that he may not (or may not even be ABLE to) call himself Shepard ever again.
 

03/04/2010 - Earth Nations in Suspense as Systems Alliance Hears Ford v. Huerta

“The nations of Earth are in suspense tonight as the Systems Alliance hears Ford v. Huerta, the first case of a human leader using reconstructive data storage to prolong his brain functions and stay physically capable to perform his duties. Speaker of the House Lisa Ford has led the charge against Huerta, saying that the last year of his term was illegitimate. A stroke left the President legally dead and in cryocool for an hour and a half before his brain functions were fully transferred to a computer. The amount of memory degradation was never fully revealed. According to the United North American States' line of succession, if Huerta was considered dead, then power would transfer to the Vice President and Speaker Ford would have held the position of Vice President for the last year.”

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Leviathan didn't dash my imagination for something ITish, it actually grew and encouraged it. It reminded me that Bioware is quite in love with the concept of mind realms and how characters can interact with them. It reminded me that character models in one context could be used again in another. It reminded me that whole stories (like DA2) might be in a whole other realm (storytelling one for DA2) and not 'exactly' 'real'.

 

I think events of the trilogy and ME3 and its ending are legitimate. I just am not entirely convinced yet that they happened in the context that most people believe or assume. I think they matter, but I think we may find out in MEA just how much they matter and in what way. A mystery to uncover and solve, while a new story takes a center stage.

 

 

 

"There is no war, there is only the harvest."

 

 

Wake up. Breathe. Breach the darkness. Ascend.

[dorktainian]

Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome. The big head. Everything they say and do is right no matter what. 

 

 

When more advanced civilisations look after or guide along younger less advanced races, they start off with the best of intentions but as seen on the wall paintings, eventually civilisations outgrow their older stewards and wish to be free of their shackled and narrow guidence.  Chaos would ensue.  With Leviathan, it seems to me that they indeed went through this process, and in the end created something with the best of intentions - to preserve and monitor organic life from the threat from synthetics, without understanding exactly what the heck they were actually doing until it was too late.

 

They were right in a way.  Creating a way to monitor developing civilisations without imposing themselves upon them.

 

I suspect this is where Harbinger comes into the equation, subverting their creation for it's own ends.  Removing the possible threat from younger species to Leviathans place as apex species.  I suspect Leviathan was not tellin the whole truth in regards to what actually happened to create the cycles.  The same thing I think can be said about the Crucible, leviathan gives an evasive answer to shepard.  

[voteDC]

I think I would have liked Leviathan a lot more if I had played it before I had finished the game.

As it is, the payoff feels as if it were written to fill in gaps of an ending people didn't like rather than something of its own.

[angol fear]

@voteDC, that's probably because that's true : the DLC was obviously made to create explicit foreshadowing for people complaining about that. Now we have now the surprise of the ending before we get surprised at the ending !

[Dantriges]

 
Leviathan enthrallment is a less advanced form of what indoctrination may be capable of.

 

Seems to me that Leviathan enthrallment is the superior form or something on a similar level but different. They had total control without burning out their thralls. The miners were under their control for 10 years and they were surely traumatized by their experience but they weren´t braindead. It seems they even expanded their knowledge as the facility was researching a lot of stuff that wasn´t related to geology. Asteroid mining is probably a high tech job you need quite a lot of education for, but they did genetic experiments and stuff like that.  

[SwobyJ]

Seems to me that Leviathan enthrallment is the superior form or something on a similar level but different. They had total control without burning out their thralls. The miners were under their control for 10 years and they were surely traumatized by their experience but they weren´t braindead. It seems they even expanded their knowledge as the facility was researching a lot of stuff that wasn´t related to geology. Asteroid mining is probably a high tech job you need quite a lot of education for, but they did genetic experiments and stuff like that.  

 

They could have total control but it required constant exposure to orbs/the Leviathans and disruption gave the mind back fully. Indoctrination seeps into the subject permanently. The Reapers only leave subjects braindead/wrecked because it serves them.

 

Indoctrination is much more efficient.

 

The asteroid facility had Leviathans directly controlling everyone (not fully, but partially). A Reaper Indoctrinated person doesn't require that level of attention.

 

You could have a galaxy enthralled by Leviathans only if orbs were everywhere, around every person, and with Leviathans in every sector. You could have a galaxy indoctrinated by Reapers just through implantation... and that's it. Now they're controlled for as long as they exist.

 

All Leviathans might have the edge over is that they 'fit' with organic minds better that they may have the special ability to just be in a place and immediately rule over minds. I think they didn't do that to Shep's squad in the 3rd mission not because they couldn't, but because when it came down to it, Shepard was an interesting subject, the Reapers were more dangerous, and they were only trying to warn Shepard away (albeit with a callousness towards human life before that).

 

Enthrallment is being directly controlled. When the miners woke up, I'm 100% certain they forgot (or rather, they never knew) the science that they were doing. An indoctrinated person would instead take on that knowledge and have it part of them - it is compelling, and furthers the subject's awe in what the Reapers may know and what level they may operate on.

 

 

TLDR; Enthrallment may only be superior in a specific way, if at all. Otherwise Indoctrination in its many forms may be very superior technology. Even the Leviathans seem to claim that.

[CYRAX470]

The only thing I like from Leviathan is the creatures themselves, that's about it. I merely bought it for completions sake, adding extra gameplay. Since it's an origin story for the Catalyst, can't say it's my favorite.