55 réponses à ce sujet

[SherryGold]

This is how Zevran does it on the nightmare difficulty, equipped with rose's thorn with three paralysis runes.

Switch on momentum, apply swift salve and concentrated soldier's bane (just in case). One dirty fighting and game over within ten seconds. Zevran is so fast that he can stab Loghain enough times to have him paralyzed before he recovers. No other talents in his arsenal, namely riposte, was even needed, although his passive duel wield talents have been unlocked up to duel wield expert. Tested it twice with vanilla items only and it worked both times.

[SherryGold]

My first playthrough, I was a S&S warrior, and just couldn't beat Loghain on easy difficulty. Alistair died even quicker. I had to restart the game and pay attention to attributes, etc, but I never tried Alistair again. I probably won't because I prefer Loghain to live. But I am curious. Has anyone beat Loghain with Alistair on nightmare difficulty, using only vanilla items? If so, what was his stat and gear? What strategy did you use?

[luna1124]

Poisons.. give him all you have!! Stealth helps if you are a rogue.

[dainbramage]

My first playthrough, I was a S&S warrior, and just couldn't beat Loghain on easy difficulty. Alistair died even quicker. I had to restart the game and pay attention to attributes, etc, but I never tried Alistair again. I probably won't because I prefer Loghain to live. But I am curious. Has anyone beat Loghain with Alistair on nightmare difficulty, using only vanilla items? If so, what was his stat and gear? What strategy did you use?

I normally fight myself, but I'll send Alistair if I want to kill Loghain and marry Anora. Build isn't really a mystery. 26 dex, rest strength. Massive armor of some variety (usually knight commanders plate if he's my tank), waraxe (veshialle, axameter or aodh), high def shield (howes, Duncan's, champions). Limited to vanilla diligence are the best boots, and either diligence or ancient elven gloves.

Strategy is to hit loghain til he dies. Shield wall on obviously, use your own knockdowns before loghain turns on shield wall. Then use talents whenever they're off cooldown. Shouldn't need to use a potion.

[SherryGold]

I normally fight myself, but I'll send Alistair if I want to kill Loghain and marry Anora. Build isn't really a mystery. 26 dex, rest strength. Massive armor of some variety (usually knight commanders plate if he's my tank), waraxe (veshialle, axameter or aodh), high def shield (howes, Duncan's, champions). Limited to vanilla diligence are the best boots, and either diligence or ancient elven gloves.

Strategy is to hit loghain til he dies. Shield wall on obviously, use your own knockdowns before loghain turns on shield wall. Then use talents whenever they're off cooldown. Shouldn't need to use a potion.

Does shield wall prevent Al from being knocked down by Loghain's war cry?

[dainbramage]

Does shield wall prevent Al from being knocked down by Loghain's war cry?

 

Yes (as well as bash and overpower) so long as you have shield expertise.

[Heimerdinger]

If the player has a build that's at least decent then:

 

Mage - the Bane of Loghain. Seriously, this isn't even funny, magic counters him so hard and he can't resist all the spells in your arsenal. He will be mostly frozen, petrified, paralized, horrored, hexed, cursed, drained, stuck in crushing prison etc for most of the fight. The exception is a defense/support mage focused on Creation and anti-magic. Not many play this build but if that's the case just have a companion fight instead.

 

*Arcane warrior - activate your sustains, right click auto-attack and watch Loghain fail.

 

Dual Wield Rogue - you should have high Dexterity thus high defense score so some of Loghain's attacks will not connect at all. You also have 2 good stuns in your kit (Dirty Fighting and Riposte) but it gets even better: bring Concentrated Deathroot Extract. He will be stunned for most of the fight.

 

2 Handed warrior - activate Indomitable and win.

 

Sword & Shield Warrior - activate Shield Wall and win

 

Dual Wield Warrior - you are OP as hell. Stop complaining.

 

Archer - this late in the game you should be auto-attacking like a boss with good crit chance. Pinning Shot to immobilize and Shattering Shot for armor debuff are all you need plus auto-attacks, just AA him to death. He will knock you down a lot but it should not be a problem, you have high defense score because of high Dexterity.

[Scatha]

DW rogue, put paralyze runes on your weapons, the fight will be ridiculously easy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

omg.  It's so f-ing easy! Let Morrigan or Wynne do it! Get to a safe distance from him,and then freeze him with ice spells.Once he's frozen,use spells or your magic stuff to damage him.When he gets too close,start running again and freeze him...repeat a few times,and he's down! He's much easier to defeat compares to that Dalish mage leader.

The one time I found it easy was as my Elf Mage. I dueled him myself.

 

The mage knew Cone of Cold, Stonefist, and Blood Wound. I don't think he knew Paralyze, but freezing Loghain and lighting Loghain's bloodstream on fire did the trick if he didn't.

 

(I don't know how relevant this is, but I played on Casual.)

 

 

Poisons.. give him all you have!!

 

I also did this once. It was the playthrough I decided to let Zevran have a piece of Loghain, to Zevran's mild amusement.

 

A tip that I think will help no matter who fights Loghain: don't be afraid of your potions. This isn't Fallout. Withdrawal is not a thing.

[Idun]

I got there twice, both my Cousland and my Brosca are dual wield warriors with Topsider's Honor/Keening Blade. Didn't have too much trouble with him but I always play casual.

[SherryGold]

I normally fight myself, but I'll send Alistair if I want to kill Loghain and marry Anora. Build isn't really a mystery. 26 dex, rest strength. Massive armor of some variety (usually knight commanders plate if he's my tank), waraxe (veshialle, axameter or aodh), high def shield (howes, Duncan's, champions). Limited to vanilla diligence are the best boots, and either diligence or ancient elven gloves.

Strategy is to hit loghain til he dies. Shield wall on obviously, use your own knockdowns before loghain turns on shield wall. Then use talents whenever they're off cooldown. Shouldn't need to use a potion.

Didn't work on nightmare difficulty. I even gave him my lifeguard ring and Zev's key to the city. Had to replay the whole scene and use Zevran to finish him off in no time.

[Snowdog65]

I wonder what the original posters Rogue build was like (must be one of those overrated cunning builds ).

 

I did a replay of this recently.  On Normal Alistair had some difficulty. By that I mean he had to use healing potions, or he would have lost. (Using dragon bone Cailans arms/armor). So Loghain is better than a decently equipped Alistair.

 

So I loaded up the save before the Landsmeet, Turned difficulty to Nightmare and used my DW rogue.

 

Mark of Death, Dirty fighting = Dead Loghain.  He didn't even touch my character.

 

That was too easy, so next I tried it straight, no mark of death, no dirty fighting.  Just straight up brawl.

 

DW rogue vs Bad Ass Knight in armor.

 

It still wasn't close.  Even on nightmare, just in a straight up brawl, Loghain using all his activated talents, my rogue using none, I trashed him.  Though he did hit me two or three times.

 

Not sure how a DW Dex rogue could lose to him. Should have awesome defense and attack, good weapons loaded with runes by this point.

 

You don't need to spam talents, use poisons, or anything except cut him to pieces.

[capn233]

Well OP was probably in one of his first runs, so who knows what attribute investment would have been.  My first character had a whole bunch of points in Con, and then I never did that again afterwards.  Alistair probably didn't have enough strength since Pummel wouldn't stun Loghain, which could indicate too many points in will, dex or con.

 

Now getting to dex and cunning, a DW character's defense score isn't all that important to fighting targets one on one at this stage of the game, especially against elites.

 

The first reason is that if you run any of the stun poisons (listed earlier in the thread) and paralysis runes with Momentum, the elite is going to be stunned / paralyzed fairly frequently.  It doesn't make sense not to do this on rogue with Coup de Grace, and basically any rogue build should have this by the Landsmeet.  If the target is stunned it obviously has a 0% chance of hitting you.  Incidentally it will also have basically 0 defense itself.

 

The other reason is that elite targets won't put up with missing for very long and will just turn on Perfect Striking to get over 200 attack.

[SherryGold]

I did beat Loghain with Zevran as a strength rogue on the nightmare difficulty. My dex warden could have done the job pretty easy, but I wanted to see how strength rogue would do against boss level foe on one-on-one basis. The para runes didn't set in mainly because he was wielding a sword and axe (not as many hits as he could have landed as a dex rogue due to a slower attack speed) and he had two para runes instead of all three. It actually took longer than when Zevran was a dex rogue, and Loghain landed one hit, but one hale rune was enough to give Zev physical resistance sufficient not to fall victim on war cry.

[capn233]

SnS auto attack leaves a good deal to be desired, rotating shield attacks on warrior can get you by and Precise Striking will have a decent bonus by now (obviously neither an option on rogue).  If you had Swift Salves that could have helped I would imagine.  I haven't ever played SnS on a rogue through the whole game, just one or two early encounters to see what would happen.

 

GM Hale rune isn't a bad choice for a slot.  If DW with T7's you can still load the rest up with paralysis and have ~9% and ~14% chance of paralysis per hit + the 10-20% stun per hit from poison.

 

2H Warrior is pretty much a hard counter to Loghain, and to an extent mage is as well.

 

edit: I misread above post as sword and shield somehow, hence the out of nowhere SnS talk.

[Snowdog65]

Well OP was probably in one of his first runs, so who knows what attribute investment would have been.  My first character had a whole bunch of points in Con, and then I never did that again afterwards.  Alistair probably didn't have enough strength since Pummel wouldn't stun Loghain, which could indicate too many points in will, dex or con.

 

Now getting to dex and cunning, a DW character's defense score isn't all that important to fighting targets one on one at this stage of the game, especially against elites.

 

The first reason is that if you run any of the stun poisons (listed earlier in the thread) and paralysis runes with Momentum, the elite is going to be stunned / paralyzed fairly frequently.  It doesn't make sense not to do this on rogue with Coup de Grace, and basically any rogue build should have this by the Landsmeet.  If the target is stunned it obviously has a 0% chance of hitting you.  Incidentally it will also have basically 0 defense itself.

 

The other reason is that elite targets won't put up with missing for very long and will just turn on Perfect Striking to get over 200 attack.

 

 

Good attack/defense is still important. If you are using poisons with 10% stun chance, you want a lot of hits to activate your stun. But no one is arguing that stuns don't make it easier.  As I said one dirty fighting was enough to end this fight.

 

I was curious how it would go without stunning and it was still an easy win. But skipping stun and ditching Rose's Thorn for Duncan's dagger with no runes, made it more of a fight. I had to use a potion or two. Having a good dagger loaded with damage runes made a significant difference.

[capn233]

I think any rogue should have enough attack v Loghain, and Dirty Fighting / flanking is part of the reason.  Stun defense penalty is -1000 dex, and then flanking attack bonus is 20.

 

Pure cunning dw rogue should be able to relatively easily have 95-ish attack here.  Duelist / Bard will clearly have the most (more like 110ish).  That should be sufficient.

 

Mostly it just comes down to game experience, what powers or consumables to use, etc.

[Snowdog65]

SnS auto attack leaves a good deal to be desired, rotating shield attacks on warrior can get you by and Precise Striking will have a decent bonus by now (obviously neither an option on rogue).  If you had Swift Salves that could have helped I would imagine.  I haven't ever played SnS on a rogue through the whole game, just one or two early encounters to see what would happen.

 

GM Hale rune isn't a bad choice for a slot.  If DW with T7's you can still load the rest up with paralysis and have ~9% and ~14% chance of paralysis per hit + the 10-20% stun per hit from poison.

 

2H Warrior is pretty much a hard counter to Loghain, and to an extent mage is as well.

 

Haven't you already reduced this to Stun Poison == Win. 

 

You can simply give you SnS warrior a rank in poison, apply stun poison, game over.

[capn233]

Haven't you already reduced this to Stun Poison == Win. 

 

You can simply give you SnS warrior a rank in poison, apply stun poison, game over.

 

Don't really know where you are going with this.

[SherryGold]

You sure about stun penalty is -1000 dex? I am not sure if the game applies that. I've seen Zevran being stunned and still enemies can't land a hit on him towards the end and my poor rogue sometimes missed while the enemy was stunned at the earlier stage of the game (level 7 or 8)? I've also noticed at level 9 or 10, my rogue was missing when the enemy was paralyzed and he was flanking. Sure the enemy in question was elite but still...

[Snowdog65]

Don't really know where you are going with this.

 

What's the point of elaborate melee strategies when you found one uber tactic (stun poison) that just ends the fight regardless of melee class.

[capn233]

You sure about stun penalty is -1000 dex? I am not sure if the game applies that. I've seen Zevran being stunned and still enemies can't land a hit on him towards the end and my poor rogue sometimes missed while the enemy was stunned at the earlier stage of the game (level 7 or 8)? I've also noticed at level 9 or 10, my rogue was missing when the enemy was paralyzed and he was flanking. Sure the enemy in question was elite but still...

 

It is equivalent to setting dex to 0 IIRC.  Which means you still have base defense plus other defense bonuses, but you don't have defense bonus from dex.

 

http://dragonage.wik..._(Origins)#Stun

 

What's the point of elaborate melee strategies when you found one uber tactic (stun poison) that just ends the fight regardless of melee class.

 

*shrug* I never made a claim about poison / paralysis runes on any weapon style other than DW.  The post you quoted doesn't exactly have elaborate strategies, I had thought SherryGold was saying Zevran was sword - shield for some reason.  But if you want to argue:

 

Dagger dagger (momentum) attacks almost 3x faster than fullsize weapon and shield (2.7-2.97 depending on Precise Striking), and about 2x faster than dagger shield.  Obviously that means that the usefulness of any on hit procs will be reduced, but if you want to run poison on SnS be my guest.  I don't tend to like to do this unless I also burn a swift salve.

 

SnS warrior was already covered by others.  Strength pumped SnS warrior is better against Loghain than dex pumped.

[Snowdog65]

SnS warrior can turn on Perfect Striking an never miss, generating lots of stun chances.

 

Everyone benefits from a stunned enemy that can't fight back.

[capn233]

SnS warrior can turn on Perfect Striking an never miss, generating lots of stun chances.

 

Everyone benefits from a stunned enemy that can't fight back.

 

Are you saying that the stun rate for SnS warrior running Precise Striking with say Concentrated Deathroot is going to be the same as a DW dagger rogue / warrior with Momentum running the same poison?

 

I agree with the above second statement, at least in the broadest sense.  Obviously the benefit from on-hit procs is not the same for every character though.

[Snowdog65]

Are you saying that the stun rate for SnS warrior running Precise Striking with say Concentrated Deathroot is going to be the same as a DW dagger rogue / warrior with Momentum running the same poison?

 

I agree with the above second statement, at least in the broadest sense.  Obviously the benefit from on-hit procs is not the same for every character though.

 

Depends on the defense rating of the target, and whether the rogue is dex based or cunning based.