59 réponses à ce sujet

[Andreas Amell]

After meeting Jeran in Trespasser I wondered if Saarebas are more susceptible to demonic possession because they use more magical power? Spirits are drawn to places where magical conflicts have weakened areas of the Veil. Usually they're demons influenced by the negative feelings of the mages. Abominations usually happen when they lose control and the possession warps the body. Is that why the Qun have adopted such draconian measures to control their mages? After playing Jaws of Hakkon I wonder why the Qunari never learned from studied the methods of the Avvar augurs, unless Saarebas are very emotional with their magic. 

[Ariella]

After meeting Jeran in Trespasser I wondered if Saarebas are more susceptible to demonic possession because they use more magical power? Spirits are drawn to places where magical conflicts have weakened areas of the Veil. Usually they're demons influenced by the negative feelings of the mages. Abominations usually happen when they lose control and the possession warps the body. Is that why the Qun have adopted such draconian measures to control their mages? After playing Jaws of Hakkon I wonder why the Qunari never learned from studied the methods of the Avvar augurs, unless Saarebas are very emotional with their magic.

They're probably more susceptible to possession than other mages because they get so little training.

The Qun hates chaos and disorder, it's one of the reasons the Arishok goes nuts in Kirkwall. He can't handle the supposed disorder of the outside. Magic is the ultimate form of chaos, it can warp reality. Thus it is deemed dangerous and counter to the Qun.

[Andreas Amell]

I wonder if that's really the case. If the Veil is an artificial construct, could the Fade also be artificial by the hands of the Evanuris? Now that we know their crimes against the Titans and dwarven people, did mining all that lyrium lead to the Fade and hence a saturation of magical energy and spirits over Thedas? Flemeth said 'as long as the music plays we dance'. The Fade could be resonating a sound that has screwed up the magical environment.

[katerinafm]

I doubt they are naturally more prone to possession. What could possibly make them more likely to get possessed is the same reason most mages get possessed: fear and lack of proper treatment of mages. In Kirkwall there was the weakened veil, yes, but the main reason there were so many blood mages and abominations was because the mages were desperate due to the treatment they were getting. Strong emotions are what attract demons to the mages as well.

 

We've seen from what happens if you free the mages that mages don't in fact get possessed and turn to blood magic immediately if they are not contained in prisons/circles but are in fact happy as long as they get proper training in order to know what to watch out for. So I believe that Saarebas don't have something in their nature that makes them more prone to possession, just their mindset and how other people in the qun treat them. The qunari don't appear to teach mages how to control their magic, they just teach other qunari to control them.  

[leaguer of one]

Short answer, no.

 

Long answer, Saarabas are more powerful then other mages. Even the quis mage has more magical attack power then other races mages. They get little training under the qun but they are still powerful.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I think, because of Qunari breeding, whatever made the Kosith into the Qunari we know, they are overall a more powerful race, in anything and, that extends to magic.

 

Of course demons want to possess a powerful mage over a weak one, that only makes sense. So, I do think they draw demons easier or, sooner in life thatn mages of other races but, that doesn't mean the become possessed. I assume the Tamasarans teach them how to resist, so, early in life, yes more easily possessed but, not later, not by the time we see them. Qunari under the Qun siply fear and mistrust them more than other races, so they are muted and leashed, used as weapons, not really treated as people. That may make them more tempted to call on a demon or, allow a demon in hopes of some level of freedom.

 

Is a Qunari mage Quis more prone to possession than any other mage? No because he was trained early by Tal Vashoth and, never treated as a thing rather than a person so, he's fine, well as fine as a mage can be in Thedas.

[Illegitimus]

After meeting Jeran in Trespasser I wondered if Saarebas are more susceptible to demonic possession because they use more magical power? 

 

 

 

Nope.  "Using more magical power" doesn't make you more susceptible to demonic possession in the first place.

 

However, it has been my theory for some time that biological Qunari are a bit like Vulcans in that without sticking to a path of rigid mental discipline they have natural anger management issues.  Which is why Sten is a little mass murdery and certain other things happen.  Anger management issues and elemental magic are a baaaaaad combination.  

[thats1evildude]

The controls placed on the saarebas are meant to reduce their risk of possession. Or, if they become possessed, then they can be swiftly put down.

You saw this in DA2. A saarebas cannot even speak unless allowed by their arvaarad.

[Former_Fiend]

Hard to say. We've certainly yet to see any Saarebas be possessed, but we have a smaller sample size to deal with.

[MissOuJ]

The controls placed on the saarebas are meant to reduce their risk of possession. Or, if they become possessed, then they can be swiftly put down.

You saw this in DA2. A saarebas cannot even speak unless allowed by their arvaarad.

 

Exactly.

 

I don't know if they're more susceptible to possession than other mages (and they might, and most of those reasons have already been mentioned in this thread) but you'd think the Saarebas' Arvaraad would put a stop to that real quick. That control rod or whatever it was seemed to be really powerful, although I guess we'll never know how much of its power comes from suggestion and willingness no comply from the Saarebas' side (since Ketojan seemed to be a really devout follower of the Qun) and how powerful the binding really is.

 

Although I suppose a strong Saarebas combined with a powerful demon would probably make one damn terrifying abomination if it made past the Arvaraad (provided that Arvaraad's control over the Saarebas is not based on compliance).  

[Ariella]

All this reminds me of the a'dam, and the sul'dam (the latter meaning leash holder) from Wheel of time. The collars (a'dam) were used on people who could channel the one power.

And no, I'm not claim it's a rip off, it just always reminded me.

[Urzon]

I think one of the WoT book had a page about a story dealing with this. I can't remember the exact wording, but a demon came to a Saarebas saying that it will possess it and do evil things, but the Saarebas rebuffed the demon each time by saying something like control of itself wasn't the Saarebas' to give for it belonged to the Qun.

 

And then it ended with something ultra creepy about the Qun scriptures being engraved on the faceplates the Saarebases (Saarebasi?) are forced to wear, so they were forced to see and read it each day.

 

I'll have to look it up again later.

[Dean_the_Young]

They're probably more susceptible to possession than other mages because they get so little training.

The Qun hates chaos and disorder, it's one of the reasons the Arishok goes nuts in Kirkwall. He can't handle the supposed disorder of the outside. Magic is the ultimate form of chaos, it can warp reality. Thus it is deemed dangerous and counter to the Qun.

 

The Saarabas get plenty of training- it's just mostly ideological, not magical in nature.

 

Which, surprisingly, isn't a bad tact when it comes to possession, since demonic possession comes down in large part to a willingness to agree or even entertain demonic bargains, not a matter of raw power. The Avaar and (presumably) the Seers try to find benign/non-malevolent spirits to claim dips. Tevinter Magisters make deals for personal advantage. The Circles uses the Harrowing as a proof of personal strength.

 

The Qun simply says

 

[Shechinah]

...

 

Just Say No To Demonic Possesion.
 

[Kurogane335]

I don't think they are, but I think that the Qunari believe that they are. Honestly, from what we have grasped of their origin, I wouldn't be surprised if tremendous and terrible acts of magic had to have been performed. It may have imprinted a mark on the Qunari viewpoint about magic. That or the Kossith they may have fled were actually powerful mages.

 

All in all, I think that the Qun actually makes the Saarebas harder to posses for a demon. Not like the mages in the South who happens to let a demon enter their body because the baker didn't sold them its fresher bread (I'm only half-joking, it is really close to my impression of the mages in DA II and DA:I).

[The Baconer]

They should be. What we know of mages, and the extremely primal fear shown by the Qunari would point to it being so. 

 

There was also the "Lost Patrol" quest that strongly implied that a Saarebas-turned-abomination slaughtered the Qunari party. 

[DuskWanderer]

I think it would depend on the demon. A Pride Demon might have a hard time convincing a Saarebas that believes in the Qun, since the Saarebas wouldn't be proud. But a desire or rage demon should be able to find the chinks in the armor. 

[Ariella]

The Saarabas get plenty of training- it's just mostly ideological, not magical in nature.

 

Which, surprisingly, isn't a bad tact when it comes to possession, since demonic possession comes down in large part to a willingness to agree or even entertain demonic bargains, not a matter of raw power. The Avaar and (presumably) the Seers try to find benign/non-malevolent spirits to claim dips. Tevinter Magisters make deals for personal advantage. The Circles uses the Harrowing as a proof of personal strength.

 

The Qun simply says

 

 

Actually, because they have so little training, they don't know how to relate to the Fade, thus problems. The reason Circle Mages can resist possession is they're specifically trained to do so, and tested in that training in the Harrowing. Saarabas know little to nothing of the Fade, and rote religious training is no substitute for actual control. 

[leaguer of one]

Actually, because they have so little training, they don't know how to relate to the Fade, thus problems. The reason Circle Mages can resist possession is they're specifically trained to do so, and tested in that training in the Harrowing. Saarabas know little to nothing of the Fade, and rote religious training is no substitute for actual control. 

Fade training has nothing to do with demon possession prevention. Demon possession is all about breaking the will of the mage. Many fade trained mages have become possed, circle or tevintor trained. To resist possession is all about how strong the mages will power is.

[Elhanan]

Maybe they already are, like the Avvar.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, because they have so little training, they don't know how to relate to the Fade, thus problems. The reason Circle Mages can resist possession is they're specifically trained to do so, and tested in that training in the Harrowing. Saarabas know little to nothing of the Fade, and rote religious training is no substitute for actual control. 

 

 

Fade training has nothing to do with demon possession prevention. Demon possession is all about breaking the will of the mage. Many fade trained mages have become possed, circle or tevintor trained. To resist possession is all about how strong the mages will power is.

 

Leaguer has the right of it. From what we've seen in-series, demonic possession isn't about being overpowered physically or magically- it's about the the mage, whether willingly or under duress, agreeing to possession. That consent can be brought about by duress- the Circle mages tortured by Uldred- but the fact remains that even Uldred-the-Abomination had to torture his captives into submission, rather than simply overpower them magically.

 

The Circle's 'special training' for resisting abominations is no different in concept than the Qun's- Just Say No. The harrowing's true test, remember- at least for the one we saw- wasn't the fight against the sloth demon: it was resisting pride. And the mages who get made Tranquil- the ones not trusted to survive the harrowing- they're not condemned as 'weak' in the sense of 'can't light a fireball X big', but in the sense of mental fortitude to resist demons. It's the mental fortitude, not the education, that matters.

 

But here's the thing- the source of mental fortitude to resist temptations doesn't matter. A Qun fanatic (which, to date, all the Sarebas we've seen have been) can rely on that, as surely as Circle mages resist because they know what to expect.

[leaguer of one]

Leaguer has the right of it. From what we've seen in-series, demonic possession isn't about being overpowered physically or magically- it's about the the mage, whether willingly or under duress, agreeing to possession. That consent can be brought about by duress- the Circle mages tortured by Uldred- but the fact remains that even Uldred-the-Abomination had to torture his captives into submission, rather than simply overpower them magically.

 

The Circle's 'special training' for resisting abominations is no different in concept than the Qun's- Just Say No. The harrowing's true test, remember- at least for the one we saw- wasn't the fight against the sloth demon: it was resisting pride. And the mages who get made Tranquil- the ones not trusted to survive the harrowing- they're not condemned as 'weak' in the sense of 'can't light a fireball X big', but in the sense of mental fortitude to resist demons. It's the mental fortitude, not the education, that matters.

 

But here's the thing- the source of mental fortitude to resist temptations doesn't matter. A Qun fanatic (which, to date, all the Sarebas we've seen have been) can rely on that, as surely as Circle mages resist because they know what to expect.

Meaning collaring them is pointless.  One fight with the Saarath would point that out.

[Heimdall]

Actually, because they have so little training, they don't know how to relate to the Fade, thus problems. The reason Circle Mages can resist possession is they're specifically trained to do so, and tested in that training in the Harrowing. Saarabas know little to nothing of the Fade, and rote religious training is no substitute for actual control. 

From what we've seen in the games, resisting possession is more about discipline than control over the actual forces of magic.  That, at least, is one thing the Qun is very god at teaching.  Possession relies on a conscious choice on the part of the mage.

[Ariella]

 

The Circle's 'special training' for resisting abominations is no different in concept than the Qun's- Just Say No. The harrowing's true test, remember- at least for the one we saw- wasn't the fight against the sloth demon: it was resisting pride. And the mages who get made Tranquil- the ones not trusted to survive the harrowing- they're not condemned as 'weak' in the sense of 'can't light a fireball X big', but in the sense of mental fortitude to resist demons. It's the mental fortitude, not the education, that matters.

 

"Just say no" doesn't work. There are a number of real life examples I could name except for the fact that some of them a RL touchy subjects. Rote resuscitation doesn't work. Thinking critically works, developing will and sense of self works. Learning how to use magic in Thedas isn't just how to light a fireball. Circle mages are actually educated in what the Fade is. Saarebas not so much. And yes, it's resisting Pride, but part of the point was recognizing the danger. A Saarebas, who has no understanding of the Fade, no understanding of the rules has a better chance of being possessed or broken because they don't have the knowledge.

 

https://www.youtube....XCpKDqFb8#t=706

 

Interview with Gaider. Which, ironically, points out that their training is make fireball this big and that's it. It's a weapon, and weapons don't think. Put it in a situation where it can be fooled into "taking orders", and boom. Circle mages can be fooled, but it's not because they can't think.

 

 Another funny bit: Arvaarad means one who holds back evil. You keep telling someone they're evil. They're going to start believing it. Rote education does not help. 

[The Baconer]

The value in the education lies knowing how different demons will go about trying to take possession, and which pieces of your psyche they will target to do it. Single-minded determination doesn't have to be whittled down or overpowered, it only needs to be redirected.