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[leaguer of one]

"Just say no" doesn't work. There are a number of real life examples I could name except for the fact that some of them a RL touchy subjects. Rote resuscitation doesn't work. Thinking critically works, developing will and sense of self works. Learning how to use magic in Thedas isn't just how to light a fireball. Circle mages are actually educated in what the Fade is. Saarebas not so much. And yes, it's resisting Pride, but part of the point was recognizing the danger. A Saarebas, who has no understanding of the Fade, no understanding of the rules has a better chance of being possessed or broken because they don't have the knowledge.

 

https://www.youtube....XCpKDqFb8#t=706

 

Interview with Gaider. Which, ironically, points out that their training is make fireball this big and that's it. It's a weapon, and weapons don't think. Put it in a situation where it can be fooled into "taking orders", and boom. Circle mages can be fooled, but it's not because they can't think.

 

 Another funny bit: Arvaarad means one who holds back evil. You keep telling someone they're evil. They're going to start believing it. Rote education does not help. 

No it doesn't. It not about fade train it's 100% about will power. One we learn about possession in da is that they have to agree first. Heck, in da:last fight it was totally comfermed that it's the case.

 

True absence is worst then understand and train, but any train to resist is still will power strengthening anyway. And that's all that the qun does.

[Ariella]

From what we've seen in the games, resisting possession is more about discipline than control over the actual forces of magic.  That, at least, is one thing the Qun is very god at teaching.  Possession relies on a conscious choice on the part of the mage.

 

Unless they're being controlled or tricked, and control of magic takes will and mental focus, things I'd think would be useful in resisting demons and mind control that can be used to gain "permission".

 

As for discipline, I don't see it in the Saarebas' case. They're called dangerous things, they have leash holders, they're told over and over again they'll lose The themselves to evil. Supposedly they're "honored", but that's just crap. The Qun teaches what looks like discipline on the surface, and it might have truly once, but now all it teaches is rigidity.  An inability to cope and think outside the lines. Why do you think the Arishok went postal? He couldn't handle a world that wasn't regulated to the last breath.

 

That's the Qun's biggest weakness in general. What they call discipline isn't. 

[leaguer of one]

Unless they're being controlled or tricked, and control of magic takes will and mental focus, things I'd think would be useful in resisting demons and mind control that can be used to gain "permission".

 

As for discipline, I don't see it in the Saarebas' case. They're called dangerous things, they have leash holders, they're told over and over again they'll lose The themselves to evil. Supposedly they're "honored", but that's just crap. The Qun teaches what looks like discipline on the surface, and it might have truly once, but now all it teaches is rigidity.  An inability to cope and think outside the lines. Why do you think the Arishok went postal? He couldn't handle a world that wasn't regulated to the last breath.

 

That's the Qun's biggest weakness in general. What they call discipline isn't. 

Have you met one? They are the most devout followers of the qun.

 

 

at 25:15

 

also..

http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Saarath

[actionhero112]

I would say a religious Saarebas that followed the Qun to the letter would be less likely to give into possession than a outside mage. The key to possession is ultimately, the desire for the demon's power. You have to give in. A Qun loyal Saarebas would never give in, as they don't have direction beyond that of their handlers and the guidelines of the Qun. 

 

It is barbaric the way they treat their mages though. However, they're not the ones who entered the fade and caused the blights, which ultimately, is the root of all objective evil in this series. Free mages did that. 

[Heimdall]

Unless they're being controlled or tricked, and control of magic takes will and mental focus, things I'd think would be useful in resisting demons and mind control that can be used to gain "permission".

 

As for discipline, I don't see it in the Saarebas' case. They're called dangerous things, they have leash holders, they're told over and over again they'll lose The themselves to evil. Supposedly they're "honored", but that's just crap. The Qun teaches what looks like discipline on the surface, and it might have truly once, but now all it teaches is rigidity.  An inability to cope and think outside the lines. Why do you think the Arishok went postal? He couldn't handle a world that wasn't regulated to the last breath.

 

That's the Qun's biggest weakness in general. What they call discipline isn't. 

In this particular case, that rigidity does help limit possession.  There was a story released about the subject with WoT2.  Saarebas are taught that every fiber of their being belongs to the Qun, and thus giving it over to an outside force isn't something they are even mentally capable of.  That's why they are always bound, as a reminder that they do not have any self to give over.  Remember Ketojan?  At the slightest hint of being tainted by influences exterior to the Qun, he immolated himself.

 

Its horrifying, but it apparently works.  Abominations aren't a problem under the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

It is barbaric the way they treat their mages though. However, they're not the ones who entered the fade and caused the blights, which ultimately, is the root of all objective evil in this series. Free mages did that. 

First of all, the magister are not the case of the blights. the ancient elves are.

 

Second, it was greed that started them up again and started it in the first place.

[actionhero112]

First of all, the magister are not the case of the blights. the ancient elves are.

 

Second, it was greed that started them up again and started it in the first place.

 

I didn't say the magisters were the cause of the blights. I said free mages caused them.

 

Whatever the motivation, those with power need to control it, or be controlled, for the good of all. The blights are a good example of what happens when someone with immense magical power uses it without consideration.

[leaguer of one]

I didn't say the magisters were the cause of the blights. I said free mages caused them.

 

Whatever the motivation, those with power need to control it, or be controlled, for the good of all. The blights are a good example of what happens when someone with immense magical power uses it without consideration.

Also, anyone with enough magic knowledge could case the blights, mage or not.

 

Everything that cause the blight was magic power coming from a third power source. The magister got in via runes and blood magic. Anyone can do that mage or not. 

 

It's just the misguide use of magic powered by greed.

[The Baconer]

In this particular case, that rigidity does help limit possession.  There was a story released about the subject with WoT2.  Saarebas are taught that every fiber of their being belongs to the Qun, and thus giving it over to an outside force isn't something they are even mentally capable of.  That's why they are always bound, as a reminder that they do not have any self to give over.  

 

What happens, then, when the offer is the means to give of themselves fully to the demands of the Qun? 

 

There is an inherent irony in the fact that a Saarebas' knowledge of demons and their machinations are the teachings of people who are not mages, and have no comprehension of what it is to live as a mage. 

[Heimdall]

What happens, then, when the offer is the means to give of themselves fully to the demands of the Qun? 

 

There is an inherent irony in the fact that a Saarebas' knowledge of demons and their machinations are the teachings of people who are not mages, and have no comprehension of what it is to live as a mage. 

I'm not even sure that would work.  If the indoctrination works and they embody that sense of certainty those in the Qun are expected to, then the Saarebas wouldn't pay attention... or immolate themselves for hearing the offer in the first place.  If they know its a spirit offering it, I don't think they'd trust it at all.  The whole idea seems to be stonewalling demons entirely, not giving them any consideration.

[leaguer of one]

What happens, then, when the offer is the means to give of themselves fully to the demands of the Qun? 

 

There is an inherent irony in the fact that a Saarebas' knowledge of demons and their machinations are the teachings of people who are not mages, and have no comprehension of what it is to live as a mage. 

That dividing by 0. The saarabas head would explode. the demands of the qun says not to give to the demands to demons but to do so in this case would get them to full devout themselves to the demands of the qun.

 

.....I feel I would get a "nothing but demon lies" out of that.

[The Baconer]

Because we know demons can and will disguise what they are, as well as their offer. They can appear as a memory, a figment of a dream, a yearning. Compound this with, again, the enforcement of ignorance by the Qunari. 

[leaguer of one]

Because we know demons can and will disguise what they are, as well as their offer. They can appear as a memory, a figment of a dream, a yearning. Compound this with, again, the enforcement of ignorance by the Qunari. 

It's still a divided by zero anwser. The demand not to talk to demon or make deals with them. To let one in to get more in turn with the qun goes ageist the qun. It like say you have to kill someone by shooting them to death to not kill them by shooting them to death.

[Heimdall]

Because we know demons can and will disguise what they are, as well as their offer. They can appear as a memory, a figment of a dream, a yearning. Compound this with, again, the enforcement of ignorance by the Qunari. 

Ignorant they may be, but not that ignorant, they seem to understand that demons are treacherous and can be deceptive.  That's why they're so paranoid that the Qun dictated Ketojan kill himself after being exposed to non-Qun influence.

 

Of course, it might not be an issue, because what demon would offer that?  Submission to the Qun entails letting go of personal desires and the self.  I could see maybe a desire demon trying, but even that's a stretch.  What kind of demon would think to offer order?  An Order or Certainty spirit?  I doubt those would be the demon type.

[The Baconer]

It's still a divided by zero anwser. The demand not to talk to demon or make deals with them. 

 

That applies when one knows they are communicating with a demon.

 

 

Of course, it might not be an issue, because what demon would offer that?  

 

 The variety that are intelligent enough to know they can't just haggle with Saarebas. 

 

 

I could see maybe a desire demon trying, but even that's a stretch.  What kind of demon would think to offer order?  An Order or Certainty spirit?  I doubt those would be the demon type.

 

It's the key, their ticket into the mage, not something they actually need or want to give. 

[leaguer of one]

That applies when one knows they are communicating with a demon.

 

 

 

 

Not really. If you were of the qun and someone of the qun tell you to talk to demon and let you in, you don't think it strange and ageist the qun. And qunari does not need to know if it's a demon or not to know it's a trick.

[Heimdall]

 The variety that are intelligent enough to know they can't just haggle with Saarebas. 

 

It's the key, their ticket into the mage, not something they actually need or want to give. 

Does such a variety exist?  Saarebas don't want anything except to follow the Qun, which they are already doing.  Your solution is to offer them something they already have as a trick.  I don't think that would work.  If they could twist the Saarebas' perception so much that they believed they weren't following the Qun and needed it from another source, the Saarebas would probably follow the Qun by killing themselves.

 

That doesn't follow the pattern we've seen.  Remember the demons that tried to entrap Feynriel in the way you're suggesting?  The Pride Demon appealed to his pride and vanity in his power.  The Desire Demon played off his desire for the love and affection of his father.  Demons tap into the things they embody.  Like how Cole taps into hurt because he's compassion.  Most of the things demons embody are things Qunari are taught to resist, especially Saarebas.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Just say no" doesn't work. There are a number of real life examples I could name except for the fact that some of them a RL touchy subjects. Rote resuscitation doesn't work. Thinking critically works, developing will and sense of self works. Learning how to use magic in Thedas isn't just how to light a fireball. Circle mages are actually educated in what the Fade is. Saarebas not so much.

 

Ideological indoctrination does work- and that's part of the horror of it. Psychological conditioning is not simply rote memorization, it can actually change how your mind works and understands things- and in so much as it doesn't work, neither does relying on critical thinking alone.

 

Does it work on everyone? Of course not- but in the case of the Qunari, the people who it doesn't work on, and who don't get on with the party, are liquidated. Saarabas are the survivors.

 

 

And yes, it's resisting Pride, but part of the point was recognizing the danger. A Saarebas, who has no understanding of the Fade, no understanding of the rules has a better chance of being possessed or broken because they don't have the knowledge.

 

https://www.youtube....XCpKDqFb8#t=706

 

Interview with Gaider. Which, ironically, points out that their training is make fireball this big and that's it. It's a weapon, and weapons don't think.

 

 

 

Your Gaider interview works against you- not only does Gaider NOT say that formally untrained mages have a higher chance of being possessed, but he equivicates the Sarebas magical style to hedge mages- which we know exist, and continue to exist, even without formal magical knowledge and training. Gaider doesn't- at least not where you quoted him- say that Saarabas are exceptionally prone to abomination.

 

 

Meanwhile, the fireball analogy I brought up was as applied to Circle mages... and, since we seem to agree that bigger fireballs =/= better resistance to mages, emphasizes the relevance of mental fortitude rather than magical firepower. And since the Qunari do know enough about the Fade to know how dangerous and deceitful demons can be...

 

Saarabas aren't innocent children who don't understand deception or demonic threats.

 

 

 

 

Put it in a situation where it can be fooled into "taking orders", and boom. Circle mages can be fooled, but it's not because they can't think.

 

 

Saarabas can think- and understand the Qun. It's not merely 'taking orders' from whatever voice appears, or else the Saarabas system we see (in which, hey, Saarabas have a lot fewer abominations than all the critical-thinking mages we see) wouldn't work.

 

This isn't even touching on the nature of the Fade- and the limitations of spirits to understand mortals, let alone abstract concepts as complicated as the Qun. Even Sten, who is by no means a magical expert or experienced, is unfooled by the fade illusions.
 

 

Another funny bit: Arvaarad means one who holds back evil. You keep telling someone they're evil. They're going to start believing it. Rote education does not help.

 

 

Ideological indoctrination, however, does.

 

The Saarabas do not believe themselves evil. They believe themselves dangerous things- but can still find a place, and enlightenment, and a sort of salvation in the Qun.

 

Saarabas who do not believe these things, of course, get weeded out with the rest of the ideologically unfit.

[Dean_the_Young]

What happens, then, when the offer is the means to give of themselves fully to the demands of the Qun? 

 

The demand of the Qun would demand they not take it.

 

Borderline tautological? Perhaps. But effective.

 

 

There is an inherent irony in the fact that a Saarebas' knowledge of demons and their machinations are the teachings of people who are not mages, and have no comprehension of what it is to live as a mage.

 

 

The two are not so mutually exclusive.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Unless they're being controlled or tricked, and control of magic takes will and mental focus, things I'd think would be useful in resisting demons and mind control that can be used to gain "permission".

 

Mind control, to this point, has never been an avenue of demonic possesion: even blood-mage abominations had to torture consent, rather than mind-control an acceptable 'yes.' The closest thing to an non-consensual possession was the stuffing of demons into the templar recruits of DA2. That, however, is not applicable... and since Saarabas are hedge-mages, with their powers locked in, it's not even clear they can perform blood magic on eachother. Certainly demons in the fade can't.

 

 

The demonic inclination towards trickery is is why consent is everything- and why obstinance is effective. Regardless of the set-up, or the illusion, the demon/spirit has to get accepted- and as long as the mage says 'no', it means 'no.' There's no lawyering in which an obstinate 'no' means 'yes' to 'let the thing inside you?' In DA2, Hawke's companions falter because their characters open themselves to interacting and considering the demon- but characters that pre-emptively don't (like Justice) are able to resist.

 

 

 

As for discipline, I don't see it in the Saarebas' case. They're called dangerous things, they have leash holders, they're told over and over again they'll lose The themselves to evil. Supposedly they're "honored", but that's just crap. The Qun teaches what looks like discipline on the surface, and it might have truly once, but now all it teaches is rigidity.  An inability to cope and think outside the lines. Why do you think the Arishok went postal? He couldn't handle a world that wasn't regulated to the last breath.

 

 

You don't see it because you're a product of western liberalism, with a high cultural focus on indivudalism. You find the practices abhorrent, and thus it must be ineffective and invalid in all its ways.

 

 

 

That's the Qun's biggest weakness in general. What they call discipline isn't. 

 

 

 

Sometimes. Sometimes not. However, in this case zealotry is an effective defense against demonic temptation when the zealotry is a pre-emptive 'no.'

[The Baconer]

Not really. If you were of the qun and someone of the qun tell you to talk to demon and let you in-

 

I can tell we're not going to advance beyond this point. 

 

 

Does such a variety exist?  Saarebas don't want anything except to follow the Qun, which they are already doing.  Your solution is to offer them something they already have as a trick.  I don't think that would work.  If they could twist the Saarebas' perception so much that they believed they weren't following the Qun and needed it from another source, the Saarebas would probably follow the Qun by killing themselves.

 

It's not "follow the Qun", it would be more "became all that the Qun asks you to be, and more". 

 

Example: A Saarebas on the field of battle lets loose with all the chaotic energies of their magic, as they are expected to do. It is not enough. The enemy remains, the Karataam requires support, but the Saarebas has reached the breaking point. As fatigue claims their body, their thoughts drift back to days when their magic first awakened, when the Tamassran comforted their fears and explained their new purpose: You are to give yourself wholly to the Qun, in both body and mind, to satisfy a demand that others cannot. It is a source of strength, granting extra resolve to answer the call. 

 

Oops, turns out that was actually a demon. 

[Heimdall]

It's not "follow the Qun", it would be more "became all that the Qun asks you to be, and more". 

 

Example: A Saarebas on the field of battle lets loose with all the chaotic energies of their magic, as they are expected to do. It is not enough. The enemy remains, the Karataam requires support, but the Saarebas has reached the breaking point. As fatigue claims their body, their thoughts drift back to days when their magic first awakened, when the Tamassran comforted their fears and explained their new purpose: You are to give yourself wholly to the Qun, in both body and mind, to satisfy a demand that others cannot. It is a source of strength, granting extra resolve to answer the call. 

 

Oops, turns out that was actually a demon. 

Well that scenario wouldn't work, because what your actually suggesting is that the Saarebas is being offered power by a demon dressing it up as something else, but still offering power.  A Saarebas' duty to the Qun, for this very reason, most likely stresses resisting exterior influence over destroying the enemies of the Qun.  Employing mages in the army is, after all, a relatively recent development for the Qunari.

 

A well trained Saarebas would recognize that possessing enough power to smite the Qunari's enemies is not a truly important demand of the Qun for a Saarebas and recognize the illusion for what it was.  Even Sten was able to see right through a demon's illusion, so there's precedence for the Qunari attitude helping in such instances.

[Dean_the_Young]

I can tell we're not going to advance beyond this point. 

 

 

 

It's not "follow the Qun", it would be more "became all that the Qun asks you to be, and more". 

 

Example: A Saarebas on the field of battle lets loose with all the chaotic energies of their magic, as they are expected to do. It is not enough. The enemy remains, the Karataam requires support, but the Saarebas has reached the breaking point. As fatigue claims their body, their thoughts drift back to days when their magic first awakened, when the Tamassran comforted their fears and explained their new purpose: You are to give yourself wholly to the Qun, in both body and mind, to satisfy a demand that others cannot. It is a source of strength, granting extra resolve to answer the call. 

 

Oops, turns out that was actually a demon. 

 

Already shortcircuited by the Demand of the Qun- because the Qun doesn't demand you be more. It simply demands you be what you are. The fact that something offers you other than your already-assigned place is the point that conditioning kicks in and it must be a demon.

 

For the Qunari, fulfilling your role is more important than the success or failure of the mission your role is assigned (see- Sten, and Arishok, and Tallis).

[leaguer of one]

Already shortcircuited by the Demand of the Qun- because the Qun doesn't demand you be more. It simply demands you be what you are. The fact that something offers you other than your already-assigned place is the point that conditioning kicks in and it must be a demon.

 

For the Qunari, fulfilling your role is more important than the success or failure of the mission your role is assigned (see- Sten, and Arishok, and Tallis).

Exclude Tallis. The ben hassarth have more flexibility then that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well scenario wouldn't work, because what your actually suggesting is that the Saarebas is being offered power by a demon dressing it up as something else, but still offering power.  A Saarebas' duty to the Qun, for this very reason, most likely stresses resisting exterior influence over destroying the enemies of the Qun.  Employing mages in the army is, after all, a relatively recent development for the Qunari.

 

A well trained Saarebas would recognize that possessing enough power to smite the Qunari's enemies is not a truly important demand of the Qun for a Saarebas and recognize the illusion for what it was.  Even Sten was able to see right through a demon's illusion, so there's precedence for the Qunari attitude helping in such instances.

 

Exactly- the Qunari are not utilitarians who justify stepping outside of their roles in the name of mission success. We have multiple cases of Qunari going to absurd extremes to fulfill their role rather than pursue a more sensible mission completion.

 

 

Really, rather than Saarabas 'accidentally' being possessed in pursuit of the Qun, you're more likely to see a deliberate possession of a Saarabas as an abomination-bomb in the Name of the Qun. Say a development in the Tevinter-Qunari war on Seheron, in which abominations behind enemy lines are used as WMDs.

 

But in such a case, possession wouldn't be a bug, it's a feature.