59 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Exclude Tallis. The ben hassarth have more flexibility then that.

+ She kinda bends the rules of the Qun anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

An analogy I'd offer for people to consider the Qunari perspective on 'say no to demons'-

 

Qunari treat conversing with anything fade-like like modern militaries treat officers sleeping up or down their chain of command.

 

In the military, fraternization inside the ranks isn't simply inadvisable- in most cases it's not even entertained. One of the key reasons is that romantic entanglements screw with your objectivity- that peers or other subordinates won't trust impartiality or even-handedness. Consider this the 'challenge to your role.'

 

Now, temptation obviously exists. And obviously some people succumb- and when they do, it's often because they (a) don't care, ( don't think something bad will happen, or © think they can resist losing objectivity. Call these the 'demonic illusions and temptations.'

 

But entertaining that temptations and having a dialogue on them- one that you might lose- is a choice. And you can be conditioned to avoid that dialogue by reflex. One of the ways is to form a tautological thinking trap with ©: a closely held definition that 'If I think I can avoid losing objectivity, then I have already lost objectivity.'

 

This is how the Qunari approach 'Just say no': Saarabas are mages who have been conditioned to accept that © route. The (a) 'Don't Care' mages are liquidated and/or re-educated before becoming Saarabass. ( is prevented by the (paranoid, fearful) education of the dangers of demons. And the thinking-trap of © leads Saarabas to condemning themselves before they even commit to the sort of dialogue that could lead to them.

 

 

Remember- this isn't the sort of thing that works for everyone. But it doesn't need to- the Saarabas are the mages who are successfully conditioned. They're the outputs of the system. Everyone who doesn't make the cut, or as best as the Qunari can figure, are probably dead.

[The Baconer]

Well that scenario wouldn't work, because what your actually suggesting is that the Saarebas is being offered power by a demon dressing it up as something else, but still offering power.  A Saarebas' duty to the Qun, for this very reason, most likely stresses resisting exterior influence over destroying the enemies of the Qun.  Employing mages in the army is, after all, a relatively recent development for the Qunari.

 

Qunari hold that Saarebas cannot truly control themselves. "Resisting exterior influence" implies a will, an ownership of their own mind and body, that was never theirs to possess. This is demonstrated in their mutilation, bondage, and assignment to an Arvaarad. Of course, this is the same logic that asserts that no Qunari are ever "lost" to becoming Tal-Vashoth, as the Qun loses nothing when weakness departs it. 

 

 

A well trained Saarebas would recognize that possessing enough power to smite the Qunari's enemies is not a truly important demand of the Qun for a Saarebas and recognize the illusion for what it was.  Even Sten was able to see right through a demon's illusion, so there's precedence for the Qunari attitude helping in such instances.

 

Destroying the enemies of the Qun the meaning of Saarebas' existence. It is the reason why the dangers of their powers are tolerated, rather than being sterilized by default with Qamek or simply liquidated. 

 

As for Sten, note that, while he correctly recognized that his experience was not real, he chose to be entrapped within it, as it brought him comfort. 

 

 

Already shortcircuited by the Demand of the Qun- because the Qun doesn't demand you be more. 

 

 We have multiple cases of Qunari going to absurd extremes to fulfill their role rather than pursue a more sensible mission completion.

 

Well, there you go. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Qunari hold that Saarebas cannot truly control themselves. "Resisting exterior influence" implies a will, an ownership of their own mind and body, that was never theirs to possess. This is demonstrated in their mutilation, bondage, and assignment to an Arvaarad. Of course, this is the same logic that asserts that no Qunari are ever "lost" to becoming Tal-Vashoth, as the Qun loses nothing when weakness departs it. 

 

 

 

Destroying the enemies of the Qun the meaning of Saarebas' existence. It is the reason why the dangers of their powers are tolerated, rather than being sterilized by default with Qamek or simply liquidated. 

 

As for Sten, note that, while he correctly recognized that his experience was not real, he chose to be entrapped within it, as it brought him comfort. 

 

 

 

 

Well, there you go. 

 

I think you're missing the hook- you're basing your insistence on an interpretation that the Qunari don't, and haven't, shown any intent or desire to make. The meaning of a Saarabas's existence isn't to destroy enemies- it's to abide by the the Qun. And that role includes not trying to exceed their role, or listen to the fade whispers and voices.

 

Trying to plaster over a utilitarian mindset that jumps to the end result as justification of stepping out of the role- 'well, it's for the greater purpose'- ignores the tautological nature of the Qun. Saraabas don't achieve validation by destroying their enemies- they achieve validation by maintaining self-control, whether enemies are destroyed or not. Destroying their enemies is an occasional outcome, not the means to it.

 

The significance of the absurd lengths Qunari go to is that they are extremely procedural in both their logic and their decisions- it's all about the means, not the ends, because the Qunari believe the means (your role) will ultimately lead to the end (enlightenment/collective success). Offering the result, at the cost of the means, is antithetical to properly conditioned Qunari.

[Heimdall]

Qunari hold that Saarebas cannot truly control themselves. "Resisting exterior influence" implies a will, an ownership of their own mind and body, that was never theirs to possess. This is demonstrated in their mutilation, bondage, and assignment to an Arvaarad. Of course, this is the same logic that asserts that no Qunari are ever "lost" to becoming Tal-Vashoth, as the Qun loses nothing when weakness departs it.

If I used the word "deny" would that be better? Because this isw actually what I've been saying.
 

Destroying the enemies of the Qun the meaning of Saarebas' existence. It is the reason why the dangers of their powers are tolerated, rather than being sterilized by default with Qamek or simply liquidated.

Um, no. Deploying Saarebas in the military is a recent development, they only started doing it after encountering human mages in battle. They had Saarebas before and there's no indication they were simply killed or sterilized before that. It follows that the first priority for a Saarebas under the Qun is to maintain singular dedication to the Qun to leave no room for other influences (Is that phrasing better for you?) Military service is only a recent addition.

As for Sten, note that, while he correctly recognized that his experience was not real, he chose to be entrapped within it, as it brought him comfort. 
 
Well, there you go.

He chose to remain, but that he was conscious of his situation indicates the effectiveness of the obstinate Qunari attitude in not being fooled by demonic influence. And Sten isn't a Saarebas specifically taught to deny such deception.

[The Baconer]

I think you're missing the hook- you're basing your insistence on an interpretation that the Qunari don't, and haven't, shown any intent or desire to make. The meaning of a Saarabas's existence isn't to destroy enemies- it's to abide by the the Qun. And that role includes not trying to exceed their role, or listen to the fade whispers and voices.

 

Abiding by the Qun is what defines all Qunari, and that is demonstrated in the performance of one's assigned role. Saarebas are weapons. That is their role. 

 

 

The significance of the absurd lengths Qunari go to is that they are extremely procedural in both their logic and their decisions- it's all about the means, not the ends, because the Qunari believe the means (your role) will ultimately lead to the end (enlightenment/collective success). Offering the result, at the cost of the means, is antithetical to properly conditioned Qunari.

 

That has not actually been demonstrated with great consistency by the Qunari, even if it's what they would like to believe. 

 

 

Um, no. Deploying Saarebas in the military is a recent development, they only started doing it after encountering human mages in battle. They had Saarebas before and there's no indication they were simply killed or sterilized before that. It follows that the first priority for a Saarebas under the Qun is to maintain singular dedication to the Qun to leave no room for other influences (Is that phrasing better for you?) Military service is only a recent addition.

 

I am not sure where this idea spawned from regarding the Saarebas being anything more than ordnance. Primal, destructive power is all that can manifest in the absence of any magical training; it is the only way that their magic can be used with any purpose in service to the Qun. Without it, you would only have a volatile, "dangerous thing" with no effective purpose. As is confirmed by Word of God:

 

So, they - their talent are expressed - sort of turned into weapons. Any kind of instructions they receive is basically to [channel] their magic power into destructive manners. So they just point a Saarebas at somebody and shoot, is basically all the Qunari would permit.

 

 

He chose to remain, but that he was conscious of his situation indicates the effectiveness of the obstinate Qunari attitude in not being fooled by demonic influence. 

 

 

Of what worth is that, when conscious participation leads to the same result? 

 

 

And Sten isn't a Saarebas specifically taught to deny such deception.

 

Are they even specifically taught to identify such deception? The one Saarebas we've actually interacted with admitted that he couldn't even tell if he had been corrupted or not. 

[Heimdall]

I am not sure where this idea spawned from regarding the Saarebas being anything more than ordnance. Primal, destructive power is all that can manifest in the absence of any magical training; it is the only way that their magic can be used with any purpose in service to the Qun. Without it, you would only have a volatile, "dangerous thing" with no effective purpose. As is confirmed by Word of God:
 
So, they - their talent are expressed - sort of turned into weapons. Any kind of instructions they receive is basically to [channel] their magic power into destructive manners. So they just point a Saarebas at somebody and shoot, is basically all the Qunari would permit.

The Qunari don't make their decisions based purely on utilitarian need. You're trying to read that into them, but it isn't there. The Qunari pity the Saarebas, according to Sten, they don't kill them for existing as long as they fully submit to the Qun.

That quote addresses how Qunari permit their Saarebas to use their powers, not their attitude toward the ultimate purpose of Saarebas.
 
 
 
 

Of what worth is that, when conscious participation leads to the same result? 
 
 
Are they even specifically taught to identify such deception? The one Saarebas we've actually interacted with admitted that he couldn't even tell if he had been corrupted or not.

First, if they can recognize it they can say no. Your entire scenario rested on making the Saarebas believe they were following the Qun by accepting a decietful bargain. If they can see through the deceit and realize what the demon is trying to do, no Saarebas would ever accept it. Second, the demon wasn't trying to possess Sten, just distract him. The situations aren't one-to-one.

Actually I'm pretty sure he felt certain he had been potentially corrupted by exposure to bas saarebas. And what was his reaction? To burn himself alive just to be sure. That should tell you just how phobic the Qunari are when it comes to magic, interacting with demons especially. They don't take chances and they don't gamble, they deny demons outright.

[The Baconer]

The Qunari don't make their decisions based purely on utilitarian need. You're trying to read that into them, but it isn't there. 

 

I never said abiding by the Qun is a strictly utilitarian endeavor, only that it demands the assignment of purpose, and the service of fulfilling that purpose. 

 

 

The Qunari pity the Saarebas, according to Sten, they don't kill them for existing as long as they fully submit to the Qun.

 

According to Sten, Saarebas are beasts in the shape of men who perform tricks. 

 

At least their existence is justified in that capacity. 

 

 

First, if they can recognize it they can say no. Your entire scenario rested on making the Saarebas believe they were following the Qun by accepting a decietful bargain. If they can see through the deceit and realize what the demon is trying to do, no Saarebas would ever accept it. Second, the demon wasn't trying to possess Sten, just distract him. The situations aren't one-to-one.

 

The demon's intent was to gorge itself on Sten's life essence as his mind was cast into the Fade; possession at this point was irrelevant as it had already found a vessel and manifested on the material plane. Perhaps the Qunari would find knowingly providing a demon sustenance less offensive than being deceived into possession, I don't know. 

 

 

Actually I'm pretty sure he felt certain he had been potentially corrupted by exposure to bas saarebas. And what was his reaction? To burn himself alive just to be sure. That should tell you just how phobic the Qunari are when it comes to magic, interacting with demons especially. They don't take chances and they don't gamble, they deny demons outright.

 

The threat of corruption arose with his separation from his Arvaarad. He was doomed, regardless of any interactions with bas saarebas (which isn't even a guaranteed occurrence). Of course, he didn't actually know whether he was corrupted or not, and the Arvaarad that he can be returned to asserts that demons could have hid within his speech and infected Hawke.

 

I'm not seeing an implication that they are easily identifying and denying demons. On the contrary, it seems to be that the threat and presence of demons is so imperceptible that there's only one reliable solution (liquidation) when it even becomes a possibility. 

 

Bonus: Another aspect of "Ketojan" that is, coincidentally, quite suitable as demon-bait. Description for his amulet:

 

[...] Gaze for more than a moment and it seems to stir something in an uncommonly dark corner of the mind, coaxing out a familiar, primal emotion: want. 

 

This secret thing was never meant for the eyes of another.

[Urzon]

What I get out of this, in its barest means, is the Qun's greatest line of defense against demons is their insane troll logic.

 

Demons may try, but against the strict Qun-abiding Saarebas, they'll never be able to crack that mindset.

[Dean_the_Young]

What I get out of this, in its barest means, is the Qun's greatest line of defense against demons is their insane troll logic.

 

Demons may try, but against the strict Qun-abiding Saarebas, they'll never be able to crack that mindset.

 

Pretty much.

 

I hate to draw analogies to other fictional series, but 'The Emperor Protects' in Warhammer 40k. One of the best/most reliable defenses against the corruption of Chaos (demonic temptations and all) is fanaticism. A similar concept applies here.