161 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

I just find the writing itself of this scene so trite. Not even going into Dorian's character or what he represents or what he accomplishes etc, I find the writing of that quest so... I don't know. Childish? Hand-holding? Like, "I prefer the company of men" - really? The Inquisitor hadn't picked up on it, after flirting with him for months, or even outright asking him if he and Felix were ever involved? Ok. So if you try to tell him "yeah I know" he gets snippy about it, like... what, should I pretend not to know, then? No, that's no good either, because saying you hadn't realized also gets you attitude. So I don't know what the hell Dorian wants from me here?

 

I didn't know he also snips if you tell you know already.  That's so odd.  Especially if you can ask him earlier of he and Felix were together.  Why would he be surprised? lol!!  I always go with the feigning ignorance response and just head canon that my IQ is trolling him to take his mind off his father for a moment.  But I know Gaider put it in there for Dorian to have something to educate the player about.  I don't even get why he's snippy if you tell you know already.

 

I wouldn't even know what the message is here: "Don't assume a gay man is gay, but if you don't know a gay man is gay, then you're stupid."
 lol!

[GGGenesis]

Are people really comparing Alistair, a King, to Dorian? Tevinter isn't anti-gay, and Dorian has said this on numerous occasions. You're expected to do your part out of a reach for power, but hey, have a male mistress all you like. All the hip magisters are doing it. It makes for good gossip, but that's about it.

Keep in mind, Dorian and Maevaris have been working on a reach for power to rise through ranks. The only scandal Dorian has is screwing a few dudes, and with his father dead and he assuming a seat in the Magisterium, plus he helped the Inquisitor against Corypheus and has all of this knowledge about the Fade, the Venatori etc etc one would assume that the one single piece of gossip is now irrelevant especially with Tevinter in political shambles.

[nightscrawl]

I didn't know he also snips if you tell you know already.  That's so odd.  Especially if you can ask him earlier of he and Felix were together.  Why would he be surprised? lol!!  I always go with the feigning ignorance response and just head canon that my IQ is trolling him to take his mind off his father for a moment.  But I know Gaider put it in there for Dorian to have something to educate the player about.  I don't even get why he's snippy if you tell you know already.

 

I wouldn't even know what the message is here: "Don't assume a gay man is gay, but if you don't know a gay man is gay, then you're stupid."
 lol!

 

I'll say in advance that I don't know how this dialogue differs if you've already been flirting with him versus not. But on the occasions where I have picked the option to tell him that I already know, my guy -- previously flirted -- says, "That's not exactly news, Dorian," after which Dorian replies, "And why should it be? Why anyone should care, I have no idea," or something along those lines (my wording may be slightly off). I have NEVER heard that response as snippy toward my character, and his tone only seems frustrated at the situation, which is understandable.

 

But honestly, I find this complaint rather silly. They're not going to have a completely unique set of dialogue options and responses for every situation; friend versus not-friend, flirting versus not, etc. But they DO have some differentiation with some lines, while leaving others the same. The case of the Inquisitor's reveal that he also prefers men, and Dorian's varied response, is of the former, while asking him for clarification is an example of the latter. I really don't see a problem here.

 

 

(This is a general commentary, not to you specifically, Hazegurl.) Say what you will about "gaydar" or stereotypes or whatever, but there were people who went into DAI completely spoiler-free** that were surprised by the reveal that Dorian was gay. I don't know, maybe these are the better people for not being so narrow-minded as to focus on details like eyeliner and fashion sense. So no, I don't think that the expectation was that the player should be able to immediately pick up on the fact that he was gay.

 

The mere availability of the dialogue option to ask whether he and Felix were involved doesn't mean anything. You can also ask the same of Leliana in regard to Divine Justinia, or flirt with various NPCs as the opposite of their preference -- women with Cassandra and Dorian, men with Sera and Cullen. Before picking them, should I assume that Cassandra and Cullen are gay, or that Dorian and Sera are straight simply because those options are there? No. They are there for the player and as a part of role play. Take them or don't, the choice is yours to make and the NPC will respond according to their personality and preference.

 

 

** Not I, sadly.

[Bleachrude]

Are people really comparing Alistair, a King, to Dorian? Tevinter isn't anti-gay, and Dorian has said this on numerous occasions. You're expected to do your part out of a reach for power, but hey, have a male mistress all you like. All the hip magisters are doing it. It makes for good gossip, but that's about it.
 

 

Who said anything about Tevinter being anti-gay? That has nothing to do with the problem I and others have with it.

 

Look, the gameworld EXPLICITLY tells you "In Tevinter, who you have children with is very important". This is mentioned in World of Thedas, mentioned in the game itself, mentioned in comics etc. Then we also have REAL WORLD knowledge of how important at least for nobles, how important lines of succession.

 

In Origins, this is a big thing with the whole Anora/Cailan/Celene storyline, then you have the Cousland heir getting into an arranged marriage from someone from Antiva to the importance of status with regard to who can be queen or king consort..

 

In DA2, a big part of Act 1 is you reclaiming your noble heritage and how it affects the life of your family.

 

Yet in DA:I, Dorian can blow this off and yet at the same time, be the leader of a faction in the magisterium (hell, think about this for a moment...the ONLY reason he has access to the magisterium is that he's the HEIR of his father's seat). Yet at nopoin in this quest do we see this aspect o this acknowledged. Indeed, the quest makes it seem like the reason why his father wanted to change Dorian wasn't because "the family needs a heir" but "my son is gay and I need to change him". 

[Hazegurl]

I'll say in advance that I don't know how this dialogue differs if you've already been flirting with him versus not. But on the occasions where I have picked the option to tell him that I already know, my guy -- previously flirted -- says, "That's not exactly news, Dorian," after which Dorian replies, "And why should it be? Why anyone should care, I have no idea," or something along those lines (my wording may be slightly off). I have NEVER heard that response as snippy toward my character, and his tone only seems frustrated at the situation, which is understandable.

 

 

Ah okay, that doesn't sound snippy at all.  Maybe it's a different response for a non flirt IQ? idk.  When I feign ignorance, I expect the snippy remarks, my IQ is being intentionally annoying.  That's why the thought of him also being snippy if you acknowledge that you know, was a bit off.  But if anything, it seems like Dorian is saying him being gay shouldn't be a big deal, in general, not directed at the IQ.

 

Bleachrude: Yet at nopoin in this quest do we see this aspect o this acknowledged. Indeed, the quest makes it seem like the reason why his father wanted to change Dorian wasn't because "the family needs a heir" but "my son is gay and I need to change him".

 

 

This is why I don't believe Gaider when he tries to say that Dorian's quest is more about the business of Dorian being the heir of his house producing no heir and not about him being gay.  The entire quest reeks of "pray the gay away" drama moreso than the drama surrounding the heir of a noble house who refuses to reproduce.  I would have liked to have seen the woman he was supposed to marry, have her family declare that they will cut ties with the Pavus family, ties they may need to navigate the political landscape of Tevinter and make the changes they need to build their faction.  I would have liked for Halward to bring up that once Dorian is dead the Pavus lands would be divided within the government which could only make their enemies wealthier....but yeah whatever. What's done is done. lol!

[nightscrawl]

I think many of you are expecting way too much from follower plots in general.

[riverbanks]

I think many of you are expecting way too much from follower plots in general.

 

I'm not expecting more, I'm expecting better written. Is good writing too much to ask for, now?

 

Gaider is capable of much better. His writing of Cassandra's scenes was great, hell, Dorian's writing in general is pretty great - but this scene in specific was just bad. It sounds like a first draft that needed to be taken through a few rewrites and a few more rounds of editing, but they never got back to for a second read.

 

It's not the only character quest that falls flat on the execution, for what it's worth it - Bull's quest is so poorly directed it kills any drama it was supposed to have, Vivienne's quest takes five seconds and has no resolution beyond "thanks"... Dorian's not alone in having companion quests that are supposed to be emotional and meaningful but just end up a big shrug.

[Arvaarad]

I get genuine feelings every time I reach that quest. So much so, that no matter how evil or meddling my Inquisitor is, I always make them show the letter to Dorian first. I always pick the same dialogue options during and after the quest.

I even pick one of the options that gives a minor disapproval hit. That quest feels like I'm talking to a younger version of myself, and this is my chance to say what I needed to hear back then.

In this world, parents can be ignorant. Parents can be insensitive and close-minded. But parents can also change. Some have problems beyond "tradition" or "religion", sure. But if they're decent people who got misled by tradition or religion, there's hope for reconciliation.

And that also, in some ways, makes it harder. I get Dorian's angst about making his father proud. About the conflicting emotions that come from knowing his father does genuinely love him and have his best interests at heart, but societal pressures have turned those best interests toward something bad. It would be easy to hate one's parents in that situation, to sever ties completely. But there's always that conflict of knowing they're good people, they just got lied to about what was in their child's best interests.

[Xilizhra]

Yet in DA:I, Dorian can blow this off and yet at the same time, be the leader of a faction in the magisterium (hell, think about this for a moment...the ONLY reason he has access to the magisterium is that he's the HEIR of his father's seat). Yet at nopoin in this quest do we see this aspect o this acknowledged. Indeed, the quest makes it seem like the reason why his father wanted to change Dorian wasn't because "the family needs a heir" but "my son is gay and I need to change him". 

Isn't Maevaris the leader?

 

 

This is why I don't believe Gaider when he tries to say that Dorian's quest is more about the business of Dorian being the heir of his house producing no heir and not about him being gay.  The entire quest reeks of "pray the gay away" drama moreso than the drama surrounding the heir of a noble house who refuses to reproduce.  I would have liked to have seen the woman he was supposed to marry, have her family declare that they will cut ties with the Pavus family, ties they may need to navigate the political landscape of Tevinter and make the changes they need to build their faction.  I would have liked for Halward to bring up that once Dorian is dead the Pavus lands would be divided within the government which could only make their enemies wealthier....but yeah whatever. What's done is done. lol!

It's unreasonable to expect that as a plot development when we have no indication at all that Dorian's intended's parents gave a crap about Dorian running away; for all we know, there are plenty of other eligible men who might work for producing a powerful mage. As for Dorian being a magister without an heir... really, who else in the Magisterium would mind? If the Pavus seat is gone, that just leaves a spot open for someone new, and most magisters will try to maneuver a possible ally there, so it'll be beneficial. The only ones who might mind are the members of Dorian's own faction, for whom cutting ties with Dorian would be counterproductive.

[Vit246]

 

Yet in DA:I, Dorian can blow this off and yet at the same time, be the leader of a faction in the magisterium (hell, think about this for a moment...the ONLY reason he has access to the magisterium is that he's the HEIR of his father's seat). Yet at nopoin in this quest do we see this aspect o this acknowledged. Indeed, the quest makes it seem like the reason why his father wanted to change Dorian wasn't because "the family needs a heir" but "my son is gay and I need to change him". 

 

 

 

This is why I don't believe Gaider when he tries to say that Dorian's quest is more about the business of Dorian being the heir of his house producing no heir and not about him being gay.  The entire quest reeks of "pray the gay away" drama moreso than the drama surrounding the heir of a noble house who refuses to reproduce.  I would have liked to have seen the woman he was supposed to marry, have her family declare that they will cut ties with the Pavus family, ties they may need to navigate the political landscape of Tevinter and make the changes they need to build their faction.  I would have liked for Halward to bring up that once Dorian is dead the Pavus lands would be divided within the government which could only make their enemies wealthier....but yeah whatever. What's done is done. lol!

 

This articulates my problem with Dorian's quest. Gaider and people claim that Dorian's quest is not about any gay agenda, but about Dorian being the heir of a noble house but refusing to produce children, but the Narrative does not really support that much. Dorian's father doesn't really make any rebuttal that this has nothing to do with Dorian preferring the company of men, but with Dorian refusing to perform his family duties and sire children in an arranged marriage.

.....But I could be wrong, Dorian talks about "legacy" and "Tevinter families marrying to create the perfect mage" but I dunno, they come off as weak compared to Dorian being gay.

[Hellion Rex]

Dorian's questline really just felt like an after school special, which in and of itself isn't bad, cause those stories DO need to be told. However, what really kinda threw me for a loop was how Gaider touted Dorian's story to be not about him being gay, in that Character Profile that was done ages ago. Cause the game absolutely crapped on that. I felt the emotion, the echoes of what appeared to be Gaider's own pain in Dorian, and yet I was left feeling a little hollow. I was expecting...more. I was expecting Dorian's character arc to have a lot more impactful moments than just the issues with his father. After that, everything fell flat. So in that regard, I was not really pleased with how Dorian's character development was handled. I'm kinda done with the after school specials, at this point. I'd like more LGBT video game companions in Dragon Age whose defining characteristic is not their sexuality, which is what I felt like happened to Dorian. For example, Fenris, Merrill, Josephine, even Sera and Iron Bull were better handled than Dorian.

[nightscrawl]

It's not the only character quest that falls flat on the execution, for what it's worth it - Bull's quest is so poorly directed it kills any drama it was supposed to have, Vivienne's quest takes five seconds and has no resolution beyond "thanks"... Dorian's not alone in having companion quests that are supposed to be emotional and meaningful but just end up a big shrug.

To you. I get plenty of emotion and meaning from Dorian's quest, which includes my very first play as a female character that had no intention of romancing him. Just because you don't like it for various reasons doesn't make it objectively bad. David knew he wasn't going to reach everyone with this quest and the character and he's specifically stated so.
 
 

This articulates my problem with Dorian's quest. Gaider and people claim that Dorian's quest is not about any gay agenda, but about Dorian being the heir of a noble house but refusing to produce children, but the narrative does not really support that much. Dorian's father doesn't really make any rebuttal that this has nothing to do with Dorian being gay, but with Dorian refusing to perform his family duties and sire children in an arranged marriage.
.....But I could be wrong, Dorian talks about "legacy" and "Tevinter families marrying to create the perfect mage" but I dunno, they come off as weak compared to Dorian being gay.

Well the quest itself and the dialogue therein is not about him being gay per say, but more about Halward's betrayal of Dorian's trust. That alone is why Dorian is so very hurt and upset. He's had conflicts with his father before, but he never left until that incident. People like to distill the quest and the conflict down to the single issue, but it is only a part of it. Dorian's personality and wants/needs conflict with those of his father and they always have, right down to being kicked out of his first Circle as a child. So right from the get-go you have the recipe for conflict regardless of whether he was gay or straight.

 

Dorian's homosexuality as a simple fact about himself is not the actual issue. But rather the way that fact does not mesh with the rest of Tevinter altus society and his father's plans for him. If Dorian were of the mindset to be politically ambitious, get married, sire an heir, and have his men on the side then there would be no conflict. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. But that is not who Dorian is as a person. He doesn't want to hide who he is. Tevinter doesn't have masks like Orlais. If they did Dorian might have been better off. No, what they have is much more sinister and damaging to the people involved, requiring them to build mental and emotional walls of protection so their weaknesses can't be exploited.

 

It seems to me that one of the barriers for understanding is that many people are actually looking at it like Halward himself -- they are focusing too much on the sexual aspect of it, thinking that Dorian is just being hedonistic and selfish. Dorian has sex with men. OK, fine. Who cares? Nobody in Tevinter actually cares who you have sex with as long as they don't know about it and you do what you're supposed to do. But for Dorian it is about more than sex. He wants the emotional closeness of a relationship, but he can't have it because of the structure of Tevinter society.

 

 

That's all I have left to say about the issue. And as the thread is starting to re-tread old ground where this is concerned I'll hop out now.

[S.W.]

Perhaps a lot of people on this thread are (blissfully) unaware, but the conflicts in Dorian's quest line mirror the lived experience of a lot of people, and are very prevalent in discussions with family & friends over sexuality. I would prefer we not treat it like a purely academic matter.

 

I can't say I like it
I see very stereotyped this mission, is the style "gay son not accepted by his father"
So stereotyped that even seems offensive, like the transsexual in Dragon Age 2 with thicker voice than Iron Bull

 

Dorian's quest is only stereotypical in that it is a reflection of a very common experience. I don't see why one would take offence to it, unless you wish to argue, 'this is inaccurate, nowhere near this many parents are upset at their children's sexuality', in which case I have some news for you: people take offence to homosexuality. All the time. Even their own families. It's rubbish and it's a reality of not being straight that's not very pleasant or fun.

 

My problem with the Dorian quest is that it was too obvious and especially given our Western modern nation centric viewpoint the vast majority of the audience has, I honestly wasn't impressed with how it was handled.

 

In a lot of ways, it also cheapens the setting in a big way. I *LIKED* the fact that the non Cousland warden has to break up with Alistair because of inheritance issues among the nobility. To me, one of the big "differences" about medieval fantasy moreso than modern day works is how big an influence bloodline plays into the decision making of the actors of that timeframe. W

 

Who they marry, who they support, who they ally with etc all of this is almost always based on bloodline....it's what signifies a medieval tale.

 

Dorian's questline basically has someone who grew up in that setting basically chick it all, and weirdly, the game treats this as a good thing and worse doesn't offer any blowback against Dorian. I would've liked the questline to have more consequences for the Pavis family such as the automatic exclusion of the Pavus from the magisterium and/or the retraction of the privileges of being a magister that Dorian's father has.

 

Basically, I wanted to see a more realistic interpretation of the consequences of having an only son forsake his duty to a high ranking noble family.

It _DOES_ feel like Dorian gets to have his cake and eat it too and it seriously devalues why even bother having a medieval background? I mean, what's the point if it pretty much can be ignored willy nilly? You are right as well about Leliana...I'm STILL in disbelief that a setting where for almost a 1000 years, only single female human non-mages could be leaders of the spiritual community, Leliana is also to instigate such a change that you can now have married male elven mages....and there isn't uprisings from the lay people and regular people not just from other chantry mothers as implied.

 

THAT really devalues a lot of the previous works as well...and makes some of the potential interesting stroylines (what about ferelden with no heir, orlais and neverra with no official heir)

 

Both of these points presume that Thedas has a medieval background and thus medieval values. But even that statement isn't strictly true, given that the printing press seems to exist and large amounts of people are literate and own large collections of books in Thedas. Libraries weren't common until the 18th century, really - yet we seem to come into contact with them a lot.

 

Dragon Age is a fantasy game, not a medieval world simulator. Its politics can be centred wherever it likes as long as it's not completely silly. It's been stated before that the common attitude towards homosexuality in Thedas is 'weird, but fine', with some variations in different countries. There are some exceptions to this rule: e.g. noble families, particularly in Tevinter, as Dorian's quest is meant to show.

 

As for consequences of Dorian's decision, if you've romanced him, you'll have a side-quest related to an expensive family relic he has sold in order to support himself. It's not as if Dorian has retained all of that privilege now he has left his life behind - he is, in fact, a lot poorer.

 

 

I don't particularly care much for Dorian's quest but I think a lot of these complaints are unfair.

[Bleachrude]

To you. I get plenty of emotion and meaning from Dorian's quest, which includes my very first play as a female character that had no intention of romancing him. Just because you don't like it for various reasons doesn't make it objectively bad. David knew he wasn't going to reach everyone with this quest and the character and he's specifically stated so.
 
 

Well the quest itself and the dialogue therein is not about him being gay per say, but more about Halward's betrayal of Dorian's trust. That alone is why Dorian is so very hurt and upset. He's had conflicts with his father before, but he never left until that incident. People like to distill the quest and the conflict down to the single issue, but it is only a part of it. Dorian's personality and wants/needs conflict with those of his father and they always have, right down to being kicked out of his first Circle as a child. So right from the get-go you have the recipe for conflict regardless of whether he was gay or straight.

 

Dorian's homosexuality as a simple fact about himself is not the actual issue. But rather the way that fact does not mesh with the rest of Tevinter altus society and his father's plans for him. If Dorian were of the mindset to be politically ambitious, get married, sire an heir, and have his men on the side then there would be no conflict. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. But that is not who Dorian is as a person. He doesn't want to hide who he is. Tevinter doesn't have masks like Orlais. If they did Dorian might have been better off. No, what they have is much more sinister and damaging to the people involved, requiring them to build mental and emotional walls of protection so their weaknesses can't be exploited.

 

It seems to me that one of the barriers for understanding is that many people are actually looking at it like Halward himself -- they are focusing too much on the sexual aspect of it, thinking that Dorian is just being hedonistic and selfish. Dorian has sex with men. OK, fine. Who cares? Nobody in Tevinter actually cares who you have sex with as long as they don't know about it and you do what you're supposed to do. But for Dorian it is about more than sex. He wants the emotional closeness of a relationship, but he can't have it because of the structure of Tevinter society.

 

 

 

I know you might not respond to this, but this is what I and others have a problem with.

 

The gameworld NEVER states that you can't have emotional closeness with an outside partner. Hell, Vivienne's quest shows this already. I can't believe I'm defending Tevinter, but in no part of Andrastrian thedas (Black or White) do we ever get the impression that even among nobles is homosexuality frowned upon. More importantly, neither is the idea that actual love between two members of the same gender is a big deal

 

Indeed, when Sera marries the inquisitor, nobody has a problem with this be it in the gameworld or us on BSN since no part of the narrative indicates that this is a big deal. The only issue people bring up is "what if the inquisitor is a non-mage noble?"

 

The argument that you're using is that Dorian couldn't have a loving relationship outside of marriage but the gameworld says nothing of the fact. There's nothing to my knowledge that says Dorian can't marry a woman, have 1-2 kids and never touch said woman EVER again while being in a full marriage with his same sex partner.

 

The quest itself though ignores this and you're left with only the idea that Dorian's father is a bad guy not because he's looking at his family line but because his son is gay.

[riverbanks]

To you. I get plenty of emotion and meaning from Dorian's quest, which includes my very first play as a female character that had no intention of romancing him. Just because you don't like it for various reasons doesn't make it objectively bad. David knew he wasn't going to reach everyone with this quest and the character and he's specifically stated so.

 

You're taking this awfully personal for a conversation where everyone is just talking about liking this one quest or not, lol. I didn't say a single word about what Dorian means to me as a character or how he's "reached" me or not - only that the lines he speaks in this quest sound cheesy, for lack of more editing.

 

To clarify my point at least, which is unrelated to all these "being gay in medievalish times" discussions going on: OP seems to think the criticism of "after school special" is related to some notion of gay agenda - it's not. It's because a lot of the lines in this quest sound like the kind of PSA you'd hear at the end of a Punky Brewster episode in the early 90's. I don't care to enter the discussion of whether there is a gay agenda or not, because I don't think this quest is about pushing any agendas, I think it's an important moment of inner growth for Dorian, and the Inquisitor's ~feelings about it either way are irrelevant. But I do speak of it as an "after school special" in a joking way, because unfortunately that's what the lines both Dorian and the Inquisitor say in it make me think of - the Lesson of The Day that would come after your weekly Power Rangers episode.

 

(and yes, of course, it sounds like that to me, that's why I said "I think" - every point of view in this thread is subjective, yours, mine, OP's... there's no debate for whose truth is more truthier than the other truths here)

[Cee]

The argument that you're using is that Dorian couldn't have a loving relationship outside of marriage but the gameworld says nothing of the fact. There's nothing to my knowledge that says Dorian can't marry a woman, have 1-2 kids and never touch said woman EVER again while being in a full marriage with his same sex partner.

 

The quest itself though ignores this and you're left with only the idea that Dorian's father is a bad guy not because he's looking at his family line but because his son is gay.

 

Dorian himself talks about not wanting to live denying his true self and screaming internally. Forcing him into a political marriage, sex with a woman, and all of that...that would be exactly what he does not want to do. He wants to have a deep relationship, openly, and not conform for the sake of a political legacy.

 

His father valued the legacy, status, and reputation over the well-being and happiness of his own son. It's not about painting Halward as a bad guy or just because Dorian is gay, it's a cultural and class matter. There are more layers to this than some are giving it.

 

And even taking away that, this is something a lot of people are familiar with, in another form, in the real world.

[Bleachrude]

 

Dragon Age is a fantasy game, not a medieval world simulator. Its politics can be centred wherever it likes as long as it's not completely silly. It's been stated before that the common attitude towards homosexuality in Thedas is 'weird, but fine', with some variations in different countries. There are some exceptions to this rule: e.g. noble families, particularly in Tevinter, as Dorian's quest is meant to show.

 

 

Can I say I hate this reasoning?

The problem I have with this is that it basically cheapens the world since you can't predict ANYTHING and it makes the world basically silly putty. ..you can't say "thedasian will react this way" because you're basically using "well it's not really medieval era so they can react however".  I'm still miffed about Leliana's changes being accepted personally.

 

re: Literacy

This I would actually agree with you....MANY, MANY fantasy games have this trope of vast libraries and you wonder what the literacy rate is....Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the literacy rate is higher than Rome at its height (30-40% in urban areas) and is basically closer to the early 19th century (roughly 50% of the entire population)

[Xilizhra]

Can I say I hate this reasoning?

The problem I have with this is that it basically cheapens the world since you can't predict ANYTHING and it makes the world basically silly putty. ..you can't say "thedasian will react this way" because you're basically using "well it's not really medieval era so they can react however".  I'm still miffed about Leliana's changes being accepted personally.

No it doesn't. All it has to be is internally consistent. Bioware has no obligation to use medieval European tropes.

[Hazegurl]

 

It's unreasonable to expect that as a plot development when we have no indication at all that Dorian's intended's parents gave a crap about Dorian running away; for all we know, there are plenty of other eligible men who might work for producing a powerful mage. As for Dorian being a magister without an heir... really, who else in the Magisterium would mind? If the Pavus seat is gone, that just leaves a spot open for someone new, and most magisters will try to maneuver a possible ally there, so it'll be beneficial. The only ones who might mind are the members of Dorian's own faction, for whom cutting ties with Dorian would be counterproductive.

Why do we need prior knowledge of this?  She could have just showed up with Halward. 

 

And it's not about the Magisterium minding that Dorian has no heir, it's the fact that Dorian should care because once he kicks the bucket he could very well end up putting his money, lands, and seat in the hands of his enemies which could very well destroy all of his hard work and the hard work of his family. It could place any Pavus owned lands with citizens living on in the hands of people who may not treat them as well as the Pavus household probably did.   Heirs pretty much ensure stuff like that won't happen.    Of course, there is nothing stopping Dorian from adopting some kid or place his lands, et al in the hands of the members of his faction now.

[Xilizhra]

Why do we need prior knowledge of this?  She could have just showed up with Halward.

She could have, but she didn't, so complaining that she didn't isn't based on the game failing to live up to any sort of implied promise.

 

 

And it's not about the Magisterium minding that Dorian has no heir, it's the fact that Dorian should care because once he kicks the bucket he could very well end up putting his money, lands, and seat in the hands of his enemies which could very well destroy all of his hard work and the hard work of his family. It could place any Pavus owned lands with citizens living on in the hands of people who may not treat them as well as the Pavus household probably did.   Heirs pretty much ensure stuff like that won't happen.    Of course, there is nothing stopping Dorian from adopting some kid or place his lands, et al in the hands of the members of his faction now.

Then I'm sure we'll have much to cover in the next game, now that Dorian is now actually a magister. But that lies in the future; what Dorian will do after the unexpected death of his father is unclear.

[Bleachrude]

Dorian himself talks about not wanting to live denying his true self and screaming internally. Forcing him into a political marriage, sex with a woman, and all of that...that would be exactly what he does not want to do. He wants to have a deep relationship, openly, and not conform for the sake of a political legacy.

 

His father valued the legacy, status, and reputation over the well-being and happiness of his own son. It's not about painting Halward as a bad guy or just because Dorian is gay, it's a cultural and class matter. There are more layers to this than some are giving it.

 

 

 

I think this is why I think the quest is poorly done. The quest itself doesn't emphasize why Dorian's father did what he did but leaves many thinking it is about sexuality when it isn't. THAT's my problem with the quest. That and the fact that Dorian himself can blithely ignore his responsibilities and he's treated more importantly as in the right.

 

 

No it doesn't. All it has to be is internally consistent. Bioware has no obligation to use medieval European tropes.

 

How can it be when there's no consequences for IGNORING the rules itself? Take the issue with Dorian. Here's the only son of a noble family where the entire culture places an emphasis on breeding stronger mages yet Dorian doesn't seem to have a problem with simply ignoring this culture yet there isn't a big deal made of it in the game itself other than a quest which basically makes an observer think it's about something else?

 

I mean, then you have something like Leliana - for a 1000 years, we have only female human single non-mages as leaders of the spiritual community yet now it's possible that you can have a male quanari married mage? Yet this is basically another day in Thedas?

 

You're basically saying "people of thedas will react in any manner BECAUSE. it's fantasy".

[Hazegurl]

She could have, but she didn't, so complaining that she didn't isn't based on the game failing to live up to any sort of implied promise.

 

What are you talking about??   I never said the game promised me anything nor did I even expect that. I simply made some suggestions of what Gaider could have done to drive it home that the focus is on Dorian and his refusal to marry and not just about him being gay and his father trying to magic the gay away.

[Xilizhra]

How can it be when there's no consequences for IGNORING the rules itself? Take the issue with Dorian. Here's the only son of a noble family where the entire culture places an emphasis on breeding stronger mages yet Dorian doesn't seem to have a problem with simply ignoring this culture yet there isn't a big deal made of it in the game itself other than a quest which basically makes an observer think it's about something else?

The consequence was the dispute with his father. And Dorian enjoys being a pariah; he says so himself.

 

 

I mean, then you have something like Leliana - for a 1000 years, we have only female human single non-mages as leaders of the spiritual community yet now it's possible that you can have a male quanari married mage? Yet this is basically another day in Thedas?

Well, when qunari married male mages start filling out applications for the priesthood, I'm sure it'll come up. But since we have no news about how things are being implemented, I don't see that there's much material to complain about.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm usually one of those that gets on pandering and the like from game developers when it comes to their tumblr esque agendas, but this mission isn't that.

 

This is the only real time Dorian's sexuality is brought up into the main limelight, and the mission isn't even about it. It's about a father trying to make his son marry a woman he doesn't want to. Even if he weren't gay I doubt Dorian would have liked her or wanted to be forced into the marriage. His father trying to change his sexuality just shows how far from his son he really is, and how little he understands Dorian.

 

I liked it. It was heart breaking for me and I sympathized with Dorian very much. Don't see how people can claim it's an afterschool special, not everything involving gays and a douchebag trying to change them is an afterschool special.

[Youknow]

I'm usually one of those that gets on pandering and the like from game developers when it comes to their tumblr esque agendas, but this mission isn't that.

 

This is the only real time Dorian's sexuality is brought up into the main limelight, and the mission isn't even about it. It's about a father trying to make his son marry a woman he doesn't want to. Even if he weren't gay I doubt Dorian would have liked her or wanted to be forced into the marriage. His father trying to change his sexuality just shows how far from his son he really is, and how little he understands Dorian.

 

I liked it. It was heart breaking for me and I sympathized with Dorian very much. Don't see how people can claim it's an afterschool special, not everything involving gays and a douchebag trying to change them is an afterschool special.

Primarily because it presents the problem in a largely simple way when the reality is that no one is inherently wrong and it's NOT that simple. And before you say-- well he used blood magic to change him-- Dorian often associates blood magic as pretty much any other school of magic, and pretty much tells you that blood magic is just how people roll in Tevinter, so who am I to judge people for having different preferences on things? 

 

If you've ever been in a situation like Dorian's father, it's painful. You sit there and see someone you care about saying or doing things that you may not approve of or you think might be actively hurting them, and when you try to talk to them, they reject you and push you away claiming things that they want and might even say hurtful things themselves. His father trying to change his son's sexuality doesn't necessarily show how little he understands Dorian, it shows how much he understands the situation that Dorian is in and WANTS his son to have the best possible outcome. His father was willing to do something to alter Dorian's mind so he wouldn't even notice the change because he cared for his son THAT much. He was willing to have his son hate him if it meant that his son would have a setup to a safe and successful life. This quest could have been far more dramatic and heart wrenching without falling into melodrama had it even taken half of a second to step back and even understand what was even happening. It's possible Gaider understood this and just could not find the words to express it. What ends up happening is that the scene almost vilifies the father to absurd degrees when it's actually ridiculously understandable why his father would do this.

 

The overtly forward dialogue that simplifies a person's duty to their family versus their own personal agendas somehow degenerates down to "he tried to change me because I prefer the company of men." But it ignores the part, where his dad did this not because he was ashamed of his son but because he wanted his son to be able to fulfill his role in their society. And specifically because doing so would point to success for not only himself (being the father), but Dorian as well. The sexuality aspect of it all is just... Not necessary as all. The changing of the sexuality isn't what makes it the "after school special" criticism. It's the dialogue itself that makes this scene ultimately a swing and a miss.