161 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkly Tranquil]

My impression of this whole situation is that it's mainly a conflict between an individual with strong personal preferences and a conservative culture where conformity, duty to family, and compliance with social norms are critical to maintaining social status and security in a cut-throat political environment. The implication seems to be that in Tevinter, individuals (nobles at least) are expected to subjugate their own personal happiness for the betterment of the family (common in cultures with arranged marriages), and that the conflict between Dorian and Halward centres around Dorian's unwillingness to do his duty to the family, and the effect that refusal will have on the future fortunes of the Pavus family. We know from WoT v1, that same sex relationships are only frowned on if they are between members of the Tevinter nobility (but are approved of if it's with a favoured slave), which suggests the central concern is with the maintenance of Mage lineages rather than the issue of sexuality per se (two male mages of noble lineages produce no Mage offspring, therefore it is a waste of bloodines, thus it is frowned upon). Halward is concerned with the future of the Pavus bloodline, not about who Dorian chooses as his bed partner. Rather than being about sexuality, it seems to me to be more about individual wants versus familial obligation; the sexuality aspect just ends up muddying the waters.

[BSpud]

a Punky Brewster episode in the early 90's

 

wut

[S.W.]

I think this is why I think the quest is poorly done. The quest itself doesn't emphasize why Dorian's father did what he did but leaves many thinking it is about sexuality when it isn't. THAT's my problem with the quest. That and the fact that Dorian himself can blithely ignore his responsibilities and he's treated more importantly as in the right.

 

How can it be when there's no consequences for IGNORING the rules itself? Take the issue with Dorian. Here's the only son of a noble family where the entire culture places an emphasis on breeding stronger mages yet Dorian doesn't seem to have a problem with simply ignoring this culture yet there isn't a big deal made of it in the game itself other than a quest which basically makes an observer think it's about something else?

 

I mean, then you have something like Leliana - for a 1000 years, we have only female human single non-mages as leaders of the spiritual community yet now it's possible that you can have a male quanari married mage? Yet this is basically another day in Thedas?

 

You're basically saying "people of thedas will react in any manner BECAUSE. it's fantasy".

 

What I'm getting from this... you don't believe that individuals can dispute societal norms? Dorian is introduced to us as an exception to the rule, a self-proclaimed pariah, and whilst he's definitely internalised some of the social norms of Tevinter culture (for instance, he doesn't ever question slavery, and sees it as part of living, until he comes to the South), it'd be inconsistent for him to believe everything he's told.

 

I mean, without getting into a dry theoretical discussion about the relationship between ideas and reality, ultimately, I agree with you that material conditions influences society's ideals. Or: the way we live - how we work, if we work, what we do in our day-to-day, how that's organised - influences the way we think. The important word here, though, is 'influence' and 'society'. An individual in a society will be shaped by these norms, as well as a number of other things - their families, their friends, their local communities, and the things they've read/been exposed to (e.g. the Chant), and think in terms of the paradigms the norms set up. Those individuals also have the capacity to reject those ideas as well as accepting them, and how they react to societial norms isn't a given thing.

 

The key to good worldbuilding is trying to think about history and technology influence culture, but also understanding how people interpret said culture in massively different ways. For instance: the Chant places a woman at the epicentre of their religion so in general it probably makes less sense in Thedas for woman to be seen as lesser, secondary to men, or justified by men's existence, than in 11th century England, but rather, they would more likely believed to occupy different roles. There are of course facets and exceptions to this of course (e.g. the story of Aveline the Chevalier shows a different approach to gender & the military to the story of Andraste, where a woman lead a holy army across Thedas). People's interpretations and approaches to lifestyles and doctrines are very varied, and there is more room for radically different interpretations the smaller the unit you're looking at - e.g. different countries have their own cultures, within those different cities and communities have varying approaches to those, and then within those you'll get individuals who are quite different and live despite the norms.

[Iakus]

Dorian himself talks about not wanting to live denying his true self and screaming internally. Forcing him into a political marriage, sex with a woman, and all of that...that would be exactly what he does not want to do. He wants to have a deep relationship, openly, and not conform for the sake of a political legacy.

 

His father valued the legacy, status, and reputation over the well-being and happiness of his own son. It's not about painting Halward as a bad guy or just because Dorian is gay, it's a cultural and class matter. There are more layers to this than some are giving it.

 

And even taking away that, this is something a lot of people are familiar with, in another form, in the real world.

Dorian even said his father did all these things exactly.  He detested his wife and they made each other miserable.  But they put on the front of the happy couple because it was expected of him as an Altus.

 

Dorian wanted none of that.  Heck, look at it closely enough and it resembles Qunari culture.

[CuriousArtemis]

Okay I was hitting multi-quote too much so I had to stop ;;

 

This is why I don't believe Gaider when he tries to say that Dorian's quest is more about the business of Dorian being the heir of his house producing no heir and not about him being gay.

 

Oh my gawd thiiiiis! It's so obviously about Doran being gay lol It's so obvious about his writer being gay and wanting to write a gay story for his gay character. Which, okay, I get it, it's emotional for him and bless him for wanting to do that, but, maybe some of the other writers should've stepped in and been like, maybe we should add some nuance to this??

 

 Indeed, the quest makes it seem like the reason why his father wanted to change Dorian wasn't because "the family needs a heir" but "my son is gay and I need to change him". 

 

Yep totally, exactly this. 

 

I feel like I like the idea of Dorian's quest but it just wasn't executed well and ended up being a big ole cliche after school special complete with cheesy dialogue you could read a mile before seeing it.

 

I'm not expecting more, I'm expecting better written. Is good writing too much to ask for, now?

 

Gaider is capable of much better. His writing of Cassandra's scenes was great, hell, Dorian's writing in general is pretty great - but this scene in specific was just bad. It sounds like a first draft that needed to be taken through a few rewrites and a few more rounds of editing, but they never got back to for a second read.

 

It's not the only character quest that falls flat on the execution, for what it's worth it - Bull's quest is so poorly directed it kills any drama it was supposed to have, Vivienne's quest takes five seconds and has no resolution beyond "thanks"... Dorian's not alone in having companion quests that are supposed to be emotional and meaningful but just end up a big shrug.

 

 

Whelp agree with just about everything here Seriously, what's wrong with wanting good writing? And DG did so well in the past, and even in the current game (with, like you said, Cassandra, one of the best written characters in the game). 

 

I think it was such a sensitive issue, AND the head writer wrote and made it clear how important to him it was... that no one felt comfortable telling him it needed some tweaking.

 

And yeah so many other character side quest are equally crap. Vivienne's is the worst imo. (And I love Vivienne... great character, wasted potential)

 

Dorian's questline really just felt like an after school special, which in and of itself isn't bad, cause those stories DO need to be told. However, what really kinda threw me for a loop was how Gaider touted Dorian's story to be not about him being gay, in that Character Profile that was done ages ago. Cause the game absolutely crapped on that. I felt the emotion, the echoes of what appeared to be Gaider's own pain in Dorian, and yet I was left feeling a little hollow. I was expecting...more. I was expecting Dorian's character arc to have a lot more impactful moments than just the issues with his father. After that, everything fell flat. So in that regard, I was not really pleased with how Dorian's character development was handled. I'm kinda done with the after school specials, at this point. I'd like more LGBT video game companions in Dragon Age whose defining characteristic is not their sexuality, which is what I felt like happened to Dorian. For example, Fenris, Merrill, Josephine, even Sera and Iron Bull were better handled than Dorian.

 

W-What, Elu and I actually agree on something... /blink blink o.o

 

The gameworld NEVER states that you can't have emotional closeness with an outside partner. Hell, Vivienne's quest shows this already. I can't believe I'm defending Tevinter, but in no part of Andrastrian thedas (Black or White) do we ever get the impression that even among nobles is homosexuality frowned upon. More importantly, neither is the idea that actual love between two members of the same gender is a big deal

 

Indeed, when Sera marries the inquisitor, nobody has a problem with this be it in the gameworld or us on BSN since no part of the narrative indicates that this is a big deal. The only issue people bring up is "what if the inquisitor is a non-mage noble?"

 

The argument that you're using is that Dorian couldn't have a loving relationship outside of marriage but the gameworld says nothing of the fact. There's nothing to my knowledge that says Dorian can't marry a woman, have 1-2 kids and never touch said woman EVER again while being in a full marriage with his same sex partner.

 

The quest itself though ignores this and you're left with only the idea that Dorian's father is a bad guy not because he's looking at his family line but because his son is gay.

 

Yep, agree with all of this. I don't remember the actual quest well enough to say whether Dorian's dad wanted his son to not be gay or that he just wanted him to marry a woman and pop out a kid or two. The thing that bugged me is that the game acts like Dorian was the only guy in the world unhappy about being forced into an arranged marriage. Or that the main reason he didn't want to take part in the arranged marriage was because he was gay. That's so ridiculously absurd! How many women, regardless of sexuality, jumped for joy at being told they have to marry some dude they don't even know? I mean the whole "Lie back and think of England" thing is all about that. So if Dorian were going to be forced to marry a MAN he didn't care for that would be okay? Of course not! He'd be equally miserable! 

 

It is so hard to criticize the quest because it comes from such an emotional and "real" place. I don't know, it just makes me sad. Dorian's story could've been really interesting (and still incorporate his sexuality, if his writer wants that to be an important part of his narrative). 

 

And yes to Sera. The writer chose not to make her sexuality a part of narrative, which makes Dorian stand out like a sore thumb. Why is it suddenly such a big deal? When Dorian says he prefers the company of men, he says it like he expects the inquisitor will suddenly be filled with disgust. Sera doesn't expect that kind of reaction. Bull doesn't, Josie doesn't. Leliana doesn't. Fenris, Isabela, Anders, and Merrill don't. Hell, even Zevran, while cautious in his flirting, doesn't act like it's soooo taboo for you and him to be together (it's more like he's all about that consent, which, OT, consequently is why Zev is so ridiculously awesome!).

 

Just, grr, I don't know what else to say about this lol Such a disappointment. But so hard to criticize.

 

You're taking this awfully personal for a conversation where everyone is just talking about liking this one quest or not, lol. I didn't say a single word about what Dorian means to me as a character or how he's "reached" me or not - only that the lines he speaks in this quest sound cheesy, for lack of more editing.

 

To clarify my point at least, which is unrelated to all these "being gay in medievalish times" discussions going on: OP seems to think the criticism of "after school special" is related to some notion of gay agenda - it's not. It's because a lot of the lines in this quest sound like the kind of PSA you'd hear at the end of a Punky Brewster episode in the early 90's. I don't care to enter the discussion of whether there is a gay agenda or not, because I don't think this quest is about pushing any agendas, I think it's an important moment of inner growth for Dorian, and the Inquisitor's ~feelings about it either way are irrelevant. But I do speak of it as an "after school special" in a joking way, because unfortunately that's what the lines both Dorian and the Inquisitor say in it make me think of - the Lesson of The Day that would come after your weekly Power Rangers episode.

 

(and yes, of course, it sounds like that to me, that's why I said "I think" - every point of view in this thread is subjective, yours, mine, OP's... there's no debate for whose truth is more truthier than the other truths here)

 

WHAT 10 points to Gryffindor for the Punky Brewster reference!

[Iakus]

 

Yep, agree with all of this. I don't remember the actual quest well enough to say whether Dorian's dad wanted his son to not be gay or that he just wanted him to marry a woman and pop out a kid or two. The thing that bugged me is that the game acts like Dorian was the only guy in the world unhappy about being forced into an arranged marriage. Or that the main reason he didn't want to take part in the arranged marriage was because he was gay. That's so ridiculously absurd! How many women, regardless of sexuality, jumped for joy at being told they have to marry some dude they don't even know? I mean the whole "Lie back and think of England" thing is all about that. So if Dorian were going to be forced to marry a MAN he didn't care for that would be okay? Of course not! He'd be equally miserable! 

 

It's the latter.  Talking to Dorian reveal's Tevinter's big eugenics program to breed a "perfect mage" And Dorian was expected to play his part in it.  As his father did with his arranged marriage which led to Dorian's birth.

 

The whole crux of Dorian's personal mission is not his sexuality.  That was incidental to the whole thing.  but his not wanting to be trapped in the life his father had:  namely stuck in a loveless marriage and being forced to put on a mask and pretending that all was well.  

 

Dorian is disgusted with what Tevinter has become and is rebelling against it.  That includes arranged marriages and mages being used as breeding stock.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Not to mention the blood ritual his father had planned to alter Dorian's personality.

[Iakus]

Not to mention the blood ritual his father had planned to alter Dorian's personality.

That didn't help matters no.

 

And it's a big part of Dorian's feelings of betrayal.  His father was something of a reformer himself, though not to the degree Dorian became.  And he respected his father for it.  To willingly use blood magic to make his own son compliant towards the very society he's trying to change?

[Hazegurl]

And yes to Sera. The writer chose not to make her sexuality a part of narrative, which makes Dorian stand out like a sore thumb. Why is it suddenly such a big deal? When Dorian says he prefers the company of men, he says it like he expects the inquisitor will suddenly be filled with disgust. Sera doesn't expect that kind of reaction. Bull doesn't, Josie doesn't. Leliana doesn't. Fenris, Isabela, Anders, and Merrill don't. Hell, even Zevran, while cautious in his flirting, doesn't act like it's soooo taboo for you and him to be together (it's more like he's all about that consent, which, OT, consequently is why Zev is so ridiculously awesome!).

 

Just, grr, I don't know what else to say about this lol Such a disappointment. But so hard to criticize.

 

I think with Dorian's quest, you're not supposed to think his sexuality is an important aspect of the quest but it's difficult to do that when his sexuality is the very first opener to the discussion.  Gaider used Dorian's sexuality as the theme of the conversation, which was not a wise move, because no matter what is said during the course of the discussion, the theme is what sticks out the most.  And in a world where it has been established that non-straight sexuality is not and should not be news to anyone, you're sort of left with a Scooby Doo "huh?" moment during the whole "Company of Men" dialogue.

 

It certainly needed quite a few rewrites to fix that, along with the dialogue over all (Punky Brewster was awesome though! And it's was a late 80's show, not early 90's ), and Halward's perspective needed to be added.  It was a shame when Halward says "I did it for you." but isn't given a chance to go further because of Dorian's yelling and insistence that it was solely for Halward's sake.  The very notion of Halward offering a different perspective other than "The guy who didn't want a gay son and tried to change him" is stomped to the ground, leaving only the theme of "Dorian is gay and his father tried to change that." The reasons for Halward's actions becomes an after thought in the end, and since Dorian doesn't seem to suffer a setback to his choice, it makes you wonder why Halward even bothered to ruin his relationship with his son over what seems like nothing.

 

But despite the issues, Ramon Tikaram did a great job with what he was given, you could hear the heartbreak in Dorian's voice.  It's perhaps the reason why I decided to romance him when I had no intention to do it at all (That Mustache ). He really did an amazing job.

[Xilizhra]

I think with Dorian's quest, you're not supposed to think his sexuality is an important aspect of the quest but it's difficult to do that when his sexuality is the very first opener to the discussion.  Gaider used Dorian's sexuality as the theme of the conversation, which was not a wise move, because no matter what is said during the course of the discussion, the theme is what sticks out the most.  And in a world where it has been established that non-straight sexuality is not and should not be news to anyone, you're sort of left with a Scooby Doo "huh?" moment during the whole "Company of Men" dialogue.

 

It certainly needed quite a few rewrites to fix that, along with the dialogue over all (Punky Brewster was awesome though! And it's was a late 80's show, not early 90's ), and Halward's perspective needed to be added.  It was a shame when Halward says "I did it for you." but isn't given a chance to go further because of Dorian's yelling and insistence that it was solely for Halward's sake.  The very notion of Halward offering a different perspective other than "The guy who didn't want a gay son and tried to change him" is stomped to the ground, leaving only the theme of "Dorian is gay and his father tried to change that." The reasons for Halward's actions becomes an after thought in the end, and since Dorian doesn't seem to suffer a setback to his choice, it makes you wonder why Halward even bothered to ruin his relationship with his son over what seems like nothing.

 

But despite the issues, Ramon Tikaram did a great job with what he was given, you could hear the heartbreak in Dorian's voice.  It's perhaps the reason why I decided to romance him when I had no intention to do it at all (That Mustache  ). He really did an amazing job.

I think that Halward's justification was a lie and he knew it. That's why he didn't try to press the point and instead just admitted to betraying Dorian's trust.

[CuriousArtemis]

But despite the issues, Ramon Tikaram did a great job with what he was given, you could hear the heartbreak in Dorian's voice.  It's perhaps the reason why I decided to romance him when I had no intention to do it at all (That Mustache ). He really did an amazing job.

 

100% with this; he wins my "best actor" award for DAI. I mean I liked absolutely nothing about the character, his look, his concept, his origin, nothing nothing nothing. But when I heard his voice I immediately grew intrigued and became sympathetic to him to a certain degree (though I was playing a hard-line Dalish who snapped at him for his slavery comments). As I've said before, once (if) I'm able to get rid of that horrid mustache I'll give him another go

[Arlee]

Primarily because it presents the problem in a largely simple way when the reality is that no one is inherently wrong and it's NOT that simple. And before you say-- well he used blood magic to change him-- Dorian often associates blood magic as pretty much any other school of magic, and pretty much tells you that blood magic is just how people roll in Tevinter, so who am I to judge people for having different preferences on things? 

 

Umm, when does Dorian refer to Blood Magic being just another form of magic in a nonsarcastic way? I know Solas certainly does, and I can think of one convo where Dorian sort of says those words but he was very clearly being sarcastic and the point of what he was saying was the allure of Blood Magic is a slippery slope full of temptation and that's the problem with it... Which is quite a different thing from other schools of magic.

[rocklikeafool]

It was a very boring, canned quest that catered specifically to a certain group of people. Yes, having gay folks in video games is ok, but the quest was super lame and meant to tug on the feels of the aforementioned group.

[leadintea]

I think this quest needed more conflict and more interjections from Halward to really have been good. As it is, the quest makes it seem like Dorian is in the right, because Halward just stands there, looking like an apologetic fool, without arguing his case as Dorian rails against him about his feelings. By all means, Halward should've felt bad for resorting to blood magic to try and change Dorian, but he really should've stood his ground and explained his reasoning and position better. I mean, Dorian acts like a spoiled brat in his younger years, takes away Halward's vie for Archonship (which he could've used to bring reform to Tevinter), and weakens the strength of his family, making their political rivals get an edge over them, and despite all this Dorian is the one who has a right to be angry, and not Halward? The man made a single mistake towards Dorian amidst the good things he's done and the love he gave him, and what has Dorian give back to him? Nothing. If a parent is supposed to love their children unconditionally and do their best to make them happy, shouldn't the child do their best to make sure their parents live long, healthy lives to the fullest? Halward made his sacrifice to give Dorian a privileged, prosperous life when he married Aquinea. The least Dorian could do to make up for the things he's been blessed with was to fulfill his duty in order to strengthen his family and deter their rivals, yet Dorian contributes nothing to the family, and even ends up being the presumable cause of his father's death. There was a lot to be said for Dorian's behavior and actions that could've made this quest more interesting and more morally ambiguous, but it seems Gaider really wanted to go for the typical "parent redemption" arc that's so common in gay media, instead of going for something more political and more relevant to the situation, which ends up dragging this quest down IMO.

[BSpud]

This actually reminds me of a Brady Bunch episode from the 1850s.

[Xilizhra]

I think this quest needed more conflict and more interjections from Halward to really have been good. As it is, the quest makes it seem like Dorian is in the right, because Halward just stands there, looking like an apologetic fool, without arguing his case as Dorian rails against him about his feelings. By all means, Halward should've felt bad for resorting to blood magic to try and change Dorian, but he really should've stood his ground and explained his reasoning and position better. I mean, Dorian acts like a spoiled brat in his younger years, takes away Halward's vie for Archonship (which he could've used to bring reform to Tevinter), and weakens the strength of his family, making their political rivals get an edge over them, and despite all this Dorian is the one who has a right to be angry, and not Halward? The man made a single mistake towards Dorian amidst the good things he's done and the love he gave him, and what has Dorian give back to him? Nothing. If a parent is supposed to love their children unconditionally and do their best to make them happy, shouldn't the child do their best to make sure their parents live long, healthy lives to the fullest? Halward made his sacrifice to give Dorian a privileged, prosperous life when he married Aquinea. The least Dorian could do to make up for the things he's been blessed with was to fulfill his duty in order to strengthen his family and deter their rivals, yet Dorian contributes nothing to the family, and even ends up being the presumable cause of his father's death. There was a lot to be said for Dorian's behavior and actions that could've made this quest more interesting and more morally ambiguous, but it seems Gaider really wanted to go for the typical "parent redemption" arc that's so common in gay media, instead of going for something more political and more relevant to the situation, which ends up dragging this quest down IMO.

I don't know. Halward planned to do one of the worst things imaginable to one's own child, definitely worse than raping him and hovering around the threshold of killing him, especially since the ritual might have backfired and left Dorian brain-dead. And Halward knows it. Any ambiguity would have made things seem extremely icky.

 

Now, of course, the quest could have been done without Halward having planned on that at all, and instead consist of a back-and-forth argument about politics, which could have been interesting. But there's really no possible equivocation on the blood ritual.

[Colonelkillabee]

Okay I was hitting multi-quote too much so I had to stop ;;

 

 

Oh my gawd thiiiiis! It's so obviously about Doran being gay lol It's so obvious about his writer being gay and wanting to write a gay story for his gay character. Which, okay, I get it, it's emotional for him and bless him for wanting to do that, but, maybe some of the other writers should've stepped in and been like, maybe we should add some nuance to this??

It's only about Dorian being gay to you because that's what you choose to focus on. It's literally only one aspect out of many in his life that they tried to control, and simply one method his father tried to control him. If it were about him being gay, it would have come up more than once in said quest. Srsly.

[BSpud]

I'm sorry, I meant a Small Wonder episode from the late 90s.

[dgcatanisiri]

The fact is, whatever the INTENTION of the scene was, by making THIS Dorian's personal quest, the one that offers more insight into his character, the RESULT is that any talk of it being about broken trust and a damaged relationship is shoved into the background - As it stands, Dorian's story is more about his father's attempt to make him at the least straight-acting enough to get that heir than it is about the broken trust. It plays out like (as been said before) an after school special, because the spotlight, the emotional gut punch, is in 'you tried to... CHANGE me,' and there is NO way to read that line as something other than being about Dorian's sexuality. That's where that scene's focus is.

 

And it ends up making Dorian's sexuality his defining trait. I mean, you bring him up to casual players, he's 'the gay guy.' Or 'the gay mage.' The fact that he's gay is the biggest part of his story because of this. The scene in game plays out like a dozen existing 'straight parent can't accept gay child' scenes that litter media for LGBT audiences. While an important narrative, it's been done so many times, I'm left with a sense of 'wait, that's IT?' Because it's something I have seen so many times.

 

If the trust and betrayal elements were played up more, if Halward tried to defend himself more, even if I would still call BS on any of those defenses, the 'Tevinter would never accept you, you'd never find happiness trying to live openly, you would have been a pariah'... If THAT had gotten more focus, maybe you could sell me on the idea that the scene is meant to be about betrayals and broken trust, not to mention this idea that somewhere deep down, Halward Pavus is a good man. But all I see in what we have is a parent who wanted to make his son straight standing there, having no qualms about what he did (he's there to badger an apology out of DORIAN, rather than offering one of his own, you can tell in his efforts to get Dorian to stop making such a SCENE), and telling Dorian that he 'just wanted what was best for him' as the best of his excuses while Dorian gets to explain things in detail. And so all this is to me is a quest and a scene about Dorian's sexuality.

[CuriousArtemis]

What I never get is why or how Dorian is supposed to be a "pariah" and a "rebel" and someone who wants to "change" Tevinter. He was advertised as such, and he talks about how much he loves his country, and then sometimes makes fun of it, its history, system of government, etc. but what is so rebellious about Dorian?

 

All I can fathom is that his being gay makes him a rebel. His personal quest is pretty much only ABOUT him being gay, so what else is there? He doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with slavery. He laughs at the assumption that there are blood mages wildly roaming the streets of the capital. At most he will fuss about social traditions and familial expectations regarding inheritance. 

 

Is Dorian the only gay man (or gay woman for that matter) of his social class to have ever refused an arranged marriage? Has no straight person ever done that? (No young Tevinter girl has ever told her parents NO she will not marry the creepy older man just to propagate the magical strength of their families? Really?) And why did Dorian have to leave the country? (I'm assuming something to do with Felix and his dad? Supposedly he has broken with Alexius. So did he follow him? Or has Dorian left Tevinter because he's a "pariah"? What sort of pariah? WHY?)

 

His story is just so sadly shallow. :-\ But as someone else pointed out, the same goes for many of the DAI companions.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

In the follow-up dialogue with Mother Giselle, we're allowed to be fully supportive. "I wish they wouldn't disparage you." I love that line.

I've never gotten that line, and I'm always nice to him. How do you get it?

 

I can't say I like it
I see very stereotyped this mission, is the style "gay son not accepted by his father"
So stereotyped that even seems offensive, like the transsexual in Dragon Age 2 with thicker voice than Iron Bull

Serendipity wasn't transgender, he was in drag. *shrug*

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

You're making it much more complex than it needs to be. It's simple, Dorian refused a marriage, his father thought he could make him accept it by making him straight. Brainwashing, basically. No one said Dorian was the first, no one said he was the only one. Just because he isn't doesn't mean his father wouldn't be desperate enough to try it in a land where controlling other's lives forcefully is the way to be. It's not about the gay, its about the control. Controlling father who misunderstands their sons is something anyone could understand to some extent.

[Bleachrude]

I think what would've helped would be if somewhere in this entire quest we were given a clue that the mind-control wasn't made to make him straight, but make him accept doing his duty as heir.

 

The mind-control spell of the father is assumed to be one that was intended to change his son's sexual preference but there's no reason why the spell couldn't be simply a spell to make Dorian accept the responsibilities of being a heir. It's weird that we wouldn't be having this discussion if Dorian was female or even presented as a bisexual option a la the DA2 companions....Heh...we on BSN have given Bioware grief for the fluidity of the sexuality of the companions since origins and the first time they actually give us a homosexual companion, they screw up their quest....

[Colonelkillabee]

I think what would've helped would be if somewhere in this entire quest we were given a clue that the mind-control wasn't made to make him straight, but make him accept doing his duty as heir.

Lol you were if you were paying attention to Dorian's dialogue. It's rather evident. I think that's the problem with this. People don't listen to him when he tells you about himself and his family.

[Youknow]

Umm, when does Dorian refer to Blood Magic being just another form of magic in a nonsarcastic way? I know Solas certainly does, and I can think of one convo where Dorian sort of says those words but he was very clearly being sarcastic and the point of what he was saying was the allure of Blood Magic is a slippery slope full of temptation and that's the problem with it... Which is quite a different thing from other schools of magic.

And Dorian generally makes sarcastic remarks about a lot of things in the game. When Dorian doesn't actually like something or more specifically, dislikes it, he just flat out says that he doesn't like it. He might state that Blood magic is a bit of a slope, but that doesn't mean that he dislikes it in particular. The same way that Solas doesn't use it because it weakens ones connection to the fade, or at least that is what he believes. The only mage that actively dislikes blood magic is Vivienne and possibly your inquisitor. 

 

 

Lol you were if you were paying attention to Dorian's dialogue. It's rather evident. I think that's the problem with this. People don't listen to him when he tells you about himself and his family.

 

And in the character quest, all of that is eclipsed by the direction the conversation goes when you meet with Dorian's father.