161 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Umm, when does Dorian refer to Blood Magic being just another form of magic in a nonsarcastic way? I know Solas certainly does, and I can think of one convo where Dorian sort of says those words but he was very clearly being sarcastic and the point of what he was saying was the allure of Blood Magic is a slippery slope full of temptation and that's the problem with it... Which is quite a different thing from other schools of magic.

The only time Dorian specifically talks about blood magic is the time when he contrasts the way blood magic is viewed in Tevinter versus the way it's viewed in southern Thedas.

 

I've never gotten that line, and I'm always nice to him. How do you get it?

 

Serendipity wasn't transgender, he was in drag. *shrug*

You only get that option if you are ineligible for a romance with him, I think. Dorian asks you if you're upset about the rumors directed at you because of him.

 

Dorian (after you ask "She didn't get to you, did she?"): It takes more than thinly veiled accusations [to bother me. And why should it?] Yours is the good opinion I care about, not hers. But I should ask. Do the rumors bother you?

 

Inquisitor: (paraphrase: Only on your behalf) "I wish they wouldn't disparage you."

 

If you're eligible for a romance, he says that rumor has it that they're lovers.

[Arlee]

And Dorian generally makes sarcastic remarks about a lot of things in the game. When Dorian doesn't actually like something or more specifically, dislikes it, he just flat out says that he doesn't like it. He might state that Blood magic is a bit of a slope, but that doesn't mean that he dislikes it in particular. The same way that Solas doesn't use it because it weakens ones connection to the fade, or at least that is what he believes. The only mage that actively dislikes blood magic is Vivienne and possibly your inquisitor. 

 

And in the character quest, all of that is eclipsed by the direction the conversation goes when you meet with Dorian's father. 

 

The only time Dorian specifically talks about blood magic is the time when he contrasts the way blood magic is viewed in Tevinter versus the way it's viewed in southern Thedas.

 

He also mentions during the convo with his father that his father taught him to despise blood magic. That's actually a big part of why Dorian felt so betrayed by his father. I mean it was bad enough his father was trying to force him to be other than who he was, but the fact he was resorting to something he had always told Dorian was not ok was an additional level of betrayal. There's no where in the game where Dorian seriously indicates he thinks Blood Magic is fine.

[HurraFTP]

And Dorian generally makes sarcastic remarks about a lot of things in the game. When Dorian doesn't actually like something or more specifically, dislikes it, he just flat out says that he doesn't like it. He might state that Blood magic is a bit of a slope, but that doesn't mean that he dislikes it in particular. The same way that Solas doesn't use it because it weakens ones connection to the fade, or at least that is what he believes. The only mage that actively dislikes blood magic is Vivienne and possibly your inquisitor. 

 

 

Dorian just flat out says that blood mages are idiots... (after the episode in the fade)
Dorian feels betrayed because of the blood ritual his father had planned for him despite the fact that he taught him to hate blood magic...
During the quest "Someone to Lose"in the Exalted Plains, he disapproves if you say that the teenage blood mage was brave...

But, you're right, how can we deduce that he doesn't like blood magic in particular?

[riverbanks]

wut

 

This actually reminds me of a Brady Bunch episode from the 1850s.

 

I'm sorry, I meant a Small Wonder episode from the late 90s.

 

Your reading comprehension is truly astounding, you should copy edit for a living.

[Iakus]

I think what would've helped would be if somewhere in this entire quest we were given a clue that the mind-control wasn't made to make him straight, but make him accept doing his duty as heir.

 

Listen to how he describes his parents and how they regard each other

[Dieb]

Wait, Dorian is gay?

 

He said he likes the company of men. I like the company of men!

 

Wait.

[Hazegurl]

What I never get is why or how Dorian is supposed to be a "pariah" and a "rebel" and someone who wants to "change" Tevinter. He was advertised as such, and he talks about how much he loves his country, and then sometimes makes fun of it, its history, system of government, etc. but what is so rebellious about Dorian?

 

All I can fathom is that his being gay makes him a rebel. His personal quest is pretty much only ABOUT him being gay, so what else is there? He doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with slavery. He laughs at the assumption that there are blood mages wildly roaming the streets of the capital. At most he will fuss about social traditions and familial expectations regarding inheritance. 

 

Is Dorian the only gay man (or gay woman for that matter) of his social class to have ever refused an arranged marriage? Has no straight person ever done that? (No young Tevinter girl has ever told her parents NO she will not marry the creepy older man just to propagate the magical strength of their families? Really?) And why did Dorian have to leave the country? (I'm assuming something to do with Felix and his dad? Supposedly he has broken with Alexius. So did he follow him? Or has Dorian left Tevinter because he's a "pariah"? What sort of pariah? WHY?)

 

His story is just so sadly shallow. :-\ But as someone else pointed out, the same goes for many of the DAI companions.

Dorian's theme is "The Redeemer" so he's all about saving Tevinter and showing the audience that not every Tevinter Mage is a crazy blood mage.  He did rebel though.  I think the WoT mentioned him getting into fights, excessive drinking (as we've heard in game), and going to elven brothels. He did get kicked out of the house but no one really knows the timeline of when it happened.  He was recruited by Alexius at the brothel I think, then went to work for him, then chased after him to the South.  But somewhere in between all of that he must have went home, refused to marry again, and got disowned.  I bet Papa Pavus wished he had choked it up and banged his wife for another kid. 

 

Seriously, seems rather pointless to disown your ONLY son when you need him to inherit the family fortune. smh.

 

I wouldn't say Dorian's story is shallow, he has some depth to his character and he does offer up a different side of life for Tevinter. It's just that his personal quest emphasized his sexuality which overshadowed the other more important themes and it came across as a more modern day Western LGBT plot than a Dragon Age plot.  It's just another example of how fickle DA lore is, but it's extremely minor in comparison to the rest of the plot and not even as worst as some of the other companion personal quests.

 

I would say this, DAI had the most uninteresting  and un-fleshed out personal quests in the series overall. The only ones I liked were Solas and Cole's.  Cass' loving Varric's book was funny but I don't even know if that was a personal quest. lol!

 

Edit: I like Dorian's personal quest too, but more because of my own head canon rather than the DA team's writing...and also because Ramon worked wonders with that dialogue.

[Arlee]

I would say this, DAI had the most uninteresting  and un-fleshed out personal quests in the series overall. The only ones I liked were Solas and Cole's.  Cass' loving Varric's book was funny but I don't even know if that was a personal quest. lol!

 

Her personal quest is the thing with the Seekers. I think the whole thing with the book is just a fun thing they threw in if you have high enough approval with her.

[Iakus]

Her personal quest is the thing with the Seekers. I think the whole thing with the book is just a fun thing they threw in if you have high enough approval with her.

Everyone has high/low approval exchanges like that, I think.  The low approval Cass one is her getting drunk and unleashing a tirade at the Inquisitor.

[Hazegurl]

Oh, then I guess I only liked Solas, Cole, and Dorian's personal quests then. lol! The Seeker quest was just sleep inducing.

[CuriousArtemis]

@Hazegirl (sorry I'm on iPad ugh lol) Yeah but I don't count WoT stuff when I say his character wasn't fleshed out enough. If you need a two volume reference book to finish your characters' stories then maaaaaybe you have too many characters lol

And agree that the personal quests were as a whole pretty weak sauce...

[Hazegurl]

I agree, we really shouldn't need a reference book to understand the characters, only the most die hard fans are even going to bother looking up this information or visit the forums.  The average player is just going to walk away with whatever info the game gives them.

 

Ironically enough, my niece isn't a fan of DA, she just wanted to play an rpg and choose Inquisition cause it was on my other computer.  She just finished telling me that she thought Dorian came across as a "selfish a**hole" but the writer focused on him being gay and made the father an anti gay pri*k to pull at her lgbt heart strings. lol!  But this was after I informed her that Tevinter wasn't anti gay as she had originally thought.

 

It dawned on me that Tevinter does come across as an anti gay nation and the only thing that clears it up is the WoT. Especially if you are a male IQ who says you also like men. Halward's averse reaction can only make sense if you read the WoT and even then what you get out of it is that Halward thinks his son joined the Inquisition to his his freak on.

[CuriousArtemis]

I agree, we really shouldn't need a reference book to understand the characters, only the most die hard fans are even going to bother looking up this information or visit the forums.  The average player is just going to walk away with whatever info the game gives them.
 
Ironically enough, my niece isn't a fan of DA, she just wanted to play an rpg and choose Inquisition cause it was on my other computer.  She just finished telling me that she thought Dorian came across as a "selfish a**hole" but the writer focused on him being gay and made the father an anti gay pri*k to pull at her lgbt heart strings. lol!  But this was after I informed her that Tevinter wasn't anti gay as she had originally thought.
 
It dawned on me that Tevinter does come across as an anti gay nation and the only thing that clears it up is the WoT. Especially if you are a male IQ who says you also like men. Halward's averse reaction can only make sense if you read the WoT and even then what you get out of it is that Halward thinks his son joined the Inquisition to his his freak on.

Still on iPad so quoting whole dang thing... >.<

Huh I actually was under the impression that it was a fairly homophobic culture until just now!! So it isn't? There are gay couples out in the open in Tevinter? (Not just masters and slaves). Never read the ref books tbh.

[sonoko]

I was disappointed in Dorian's quest. For the first time in DA we got a Tevinter mage in our party, so I hoped to learn more about Tevinter, their magic, their culture... I was expecting smth exciting. Instead I got the old as world and poorly executed "I don't wanna marry whom my parents chose for me" story. 

 

(But, comparing with DA2 and ME2, not only Dorian's - all companions' quests in DAI are rather .... meh.)

[Hazegurl]

Still on iPad so quoting whole dang thing... >.<

Huh I actually was under the impression that it was a fairly homophobic culture until just now!! So it isn't? There are gay couples out in the open in Tevinter? (Not just masters and slaves). Never read the ref books tbh.

Apparently Tevinter has no problems with gay relationships if it's between regular people, and masters and slaves.  They don't have a problem if it's between nobles, as long as they breed.  At least that's what I got out of it when I read the passages. So the culture isn't homophobic, or at least it's not supposed to be.  But it makes you wonder why Dorian spending time in an elven brothel is supposed to be such a scandal.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I'm actually appalled by how many people here think that children have to abide to their parents whims, no questions asked, no matter how much hurt, both emotionally and physically, it inflicts on the child.

[CuriousArtemis]

Apparently Tevinter has no problems with gay relationships if it's between regular people, and masters and slaves.  They don't have a problem if it's between nobles, as long as they breed.  At least that's what I got out of it when I read the passages. So the culture isn't homophobic, or at least it's not supposed to be.  But it makes you wonder why Dorian spending time in an elven brothel is supposed to be such a scandal.

 

Well I've noticed the writers tend to play really fast and loose with the lore. I don't think they put as much thought into it as we do lol And they're perfectly happy to contradict what they said in the past. Kinda like how the origin screen for DAO says men and women are equal, but then everyone acts like it's such a huge deal if you're a female warden. So DG comes out and says Thedas was never meant to be equal between the sexes just because he got fed up with people criticizing them about that

 

Honestly, that (breeding) seems more reasonable than I realized o.o So you can hook up with whomever you want, even have a longterm open lover? Just so long as you pop out dem kids? S'not so bad

[SentinelMacDeath]

Well I've noticed the writers tend to play really fast and loose with the lore. I don't think they put as much thought into it as we do lol And they're perfectly happy to contradict what they said in the past. Kinda like how the origin screen for DAO says men and women are equal, but then everyone acts like it's such a huge deal if you're a female warden. So DG comes out and says Thedas was never meant to be equal between the sexes just because he got fed up with people criticizing them about that

 

Honestly, that (breeding) seems more reasonable than I realized o.o So you can hook up with whomever you want, even have a longterm open lover? Just so long as you pop out dem kids? S'not so bad

 

It IS bad if you're not attracted to that gender AT ALL and it IS bad if you wish to have a love relationship with someone of your gender but you can't, ever. And I highly doubt you can hook up with whomever you want, you have to keep up an appearance after all. 

 

I guess if you don't mind being trapped in a loveless relationship you're never able to get out of, playing your role of the loving wife/husband until the day you die, have sex with someone you hate to produce heirs, maybe fall for someone you can never have a relationship with ... by all means... it's not so bad. 

 

I sincerely hope that at least for some nobles in Tevinter it works out for the better and they actually like who they have to marry. 

[Hazegurl]

Yeah, I think the writers change the lore about whenever they get criticized about something or when they want to do a certain plot. lol That's why I've stopped getting so worked up over the plot.  I wouldn't be surprised if in DA4 Mages never get possessed and they were only in Circles cause no one likes them.

 

lol! I can understand why Dorian doesn't want to be a part of the breeding program but I don't see why he would be stuck with the wife if he opted for it, heck I don't even get why his father was stuck with his wife.  But apparently, according to Dorian, men in Tevinter don't do m/m relationships. They just bang and leave.

 

I'm actually appalled by how many people here think that children have to abide to their parents whims, no questions asked, no matter how much hurt, both emotionally and physically, it inflicts on the child.

 

I'm in the camp of compromise for benefits or not for consequence. If Dorian opted to compromise with his parents and have children while still sleeping with men then I don't see how that would be such a major trauma.  He's not a child, he's an adult with responsibilities as do everyone in the DA verse.  Maybe this comparison is way off but if Dorian was a farm boy whose parents desperately needed his aid to tend to the land but Dorian decides to split cause shucking corn makes him unhappy, he would be considered selfish by most people. Sure tending to farmland isn't what he would have wanted for himself, but how can he also be happy leaving his parents to lose everything they worked hard for,  a life that even benefited him for quite some time.  It shouldn't be an easy choice to make, but for Dorian the choice doesn't seem to be that difficult. So he comes across as a bit selfish. 

 

If I were to play devil's advocate for Halward (I hate this guy). I would say that him resorting to blood magic is due to Dorian's own selfish behavior.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Exactly, Dorian is an adult who can make adult decisions for himself, which he did. He left. He left Tevinter where he was unhappy. Where his parents were the selfish ones, forcing their agenda on him, disregarding everything he wants. 

 

Fun fact: you don't owe your parents anything. Your life is yours. You don't have to stick with them if they treat you badly, you don't have to stick with them if they abuse you, you don't have to stick with them if they only want to use you as a free worker on the farm. 

 

And again, it's not just about producing an heir. Dorian wants a proper relationship. One he doesn't have to hide from the world. I was never in the position myself but I doubt it's very enjoyable to have sex with someone you're not attracted to and where you have to force yourself to get through the act. It's quite horrible to think about it actually. 

 

And that's only a small part of the issue. 

[Iakus]

 

Honestly, that (breeding) seems more reasonable than I realized o.o So you can hook up with whomever you want, even have a longterm open lover? Just so long as you pop out dem kids? S'not so bad

Generally speaking, yes.  As long as you provide an heir and don't flaunt your affairs too much, nobles can carry on with others.   

 

There's some social stigmas to avoid.  Like Celene having an affair with Briala, an elf.  Or Bastien having an affair with Vivienne, a mage.  And married couples in Tevinter are expected to at least pretend to be happy with each other, even if they seek outside comfort.

 

The thing is, Dorian didn't want to pretend.  He saw how his mother and father were miserable in their marriage and didn't want to end up the same way.

[Hazegurl]

Exactly, Dorian is an adult who can make adult decisions for himself, which he did. He left. He left Tevinter where he was unhappy. Where his parents were the selfish ones, forcing their agenda on him, disregarding everything he wants. 

 

Fun fact: you don't owe your parents anything. Your life is yours. You don't have to stick with them if they treat you badly, you don't have to stick with them if they abuse you, you don't have to stick with them if they only want to use you as a free worker on the farm. 

It's not about owing anyone anything really, it's about caring for your family and doing what is needed to do that. Life isn't all about you and what you want. If my parents were losing their house and I needed to move back home to help out, I would if there was nothing else I could do.  Even though I despise the city they live in.  I wouldn't want to see my loved ones fall on hard times when I can help out.  I don't see how that would make them users, anymore than the farm parents in my scenario.  So Dorian does come across as selfish and childish and all about himself, even if I sympathize with him and this is mainly because there is no inner conflict with him about his choice, he's totally fine leaving his parents, whom he claims to love, in a position that could potentially endanger their lives and livelihood.   I'm sure there are plenty of folks in the DA verse who don't want to be in the positions they are in, but they make due.

 

Now Dorian doesn't have to do anything, he can choose to not listen to his father and move on with his life, consequences be damned for everyone. That doesn't mean everyone has to praise him for it.

[Iakus]

It IS bad if you're not attracted to that gender AT ALL and it IS bad if you wish to have a love relationship with someone of your gender but you can't, ever. And I highly doubt you can hook up with whomever you want, you have to keep up an appearance after all. 

 

I guess if you don't mind being trapped in a loveless relationship you're never able to get out of, playing your role of the loving wife/husband until the day you die, have sex with someone you hate to produce heirs, maybe fall for someone you can never have a relationship with ... by all means... it's not so bad. 

 

I sincerely hope that at least for some nobles in Tevinter it works out for the better and they actually like who they have to marry. 

It's pretty bad even if you are attracted to that gender and don't like the individual personally.  Just ask Alistair if he does the Dark Ritual.  And then pretend that everything is fine between you two?  Dorian would hate that life even if he was straight.  It's just not the kind of person he is.  He's a man of passion.   Being trapped in a loveless relationship would be hell for him regardless of the circumstances.

[SentinelMacDeath]

It's pretty bad even if you are attracted to that gender and don't like the individual personally.  Just as Alistair if he does the Dark Ritual.  And then pretend that everything is fine between you two?  Dorian would hate that life even if he was straight.  It's just not the kind of person he is.  He's a man of passion.   Being trapped in a loveless relationship would be hell for him regardless of the circumstances.

 

Absolutely, being trapped in a loveless relationship is nothing to aspire to, no matter the sexual orientation. 

 

Being forced to have sex with someone you despise is horrible. 

 

I HATED the dark ritual and that they had to make a cut scene for it even. Very much in bad taste. 

[SentinelMacDeath]

It's not about owing anyone anything really, it's about caring for your family and doing what is needed to do that. Life isn't all about you and what you want. If my parents were losing their house and I needed to move back home to help out, I would if there was nothing else I could do.  Even though I despise the city they live in.  I wouldn't want to see my loved ones fall on hard times when I can help out.  I don't see how that would make them users, anymore than the farm parents in my scenario.  So Dorian does come across as selfish and childish and all about himself, even if I sympathize with him and this is mainly because there is no inner conflict with him about his choice, he's totally fine leaving his parents, whom he claims to love, in a position that could potentially endanger their lives and livelihood.   I'm sure there are plenty of folks in the DA verse who don't want to be in the positions they are in, but they make due.

 

Now Dorian doesn't have to do anything, he can choose to not listen to his father and move on with his life, consequences be damned for everyone. That doesn't mean everyone has to praise him for it.

 

You'd do that for your parents because you're on good terms with them. 

 

I'm for example not on good terms (and that is as positive I can be about it) with my father and if he'd lose his house I'd laugh and laugh and laugh. Laugh some more after that even. Selfish? Absolutely not. He's done nothing to deserve my love.

 

Dorian and his parents do not currently have a relationship that could be described as a loving, caring family situation, with mutual affection from both sides.