161 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

No, it's a bad quest, with poor writing and utterly cliched dialogue whining endlessly about being gay. Those people who say otherwise are desperate to pin it on something else. 

What exactly was the cliched dialogue... mentioning gayness and someone that doesn't like it?

 

It's not even about the dad not liking him being gay. His father probably wouldn't even care if he was willing to marry and have kids, pretend he wasn't. That's the point. Dorian said it right there ^ it's about protecting his legacy... not about him being gay. It's not hard to understand unless you're just dead set on seeing nothing but the gay out of obtuseness.

[DuskWanderer]

What exactly was the cliched dialogue... mentioning gayness and someone that doesn't like it?

 

It's not even about the dad not liking him being gay. His father probably wouldn't even care if he was willing to marry and have kids, pretend he wasn't. That's the point. Dorian said it right there ^ it's about protecting his legacy... not about him being gay. It's not hard to understand unless you're just dead set on seeing nothing but the gay out of obtuseness.

The whining about being accepted for being gay. The whining that daddy doesn't love him for it. Yes, those are cliches. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 30. I've been seeing the same story for about 20 years now. That's why it's a cliche. 

 

And yes, it's about the dad not liking him for being gay. "I like the company of men. My father doesn't approve." He spells it out clear as crystal. If you want to delude yourself and say it's not, feel free. But don't whine at me for calling it what it is.

[SentinelMacDeath]

The points explain themselves: Bad writing is bad writing, cliches are cliches. You can't explain a cliche more simply.

 

And yet it hits close to home for a lot of people. It's relatable. Not every little bit of story has to be super elaborate with twists and turns at every corner to make it interesting. 

 

It might be cliche for some and for others it's very much reality. 

 

Pro Tip: If you don't want to do Dorian's quest, don't do Dorian's quest. If you do it once by mistake and don't like it you never have to do it again. 

[Colonelkillabee]

The whining about being accepted for being gay. The whining that daddy doesn't love him for it. Yes, those are cliches. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 30. I've been seeing the same story for about 20 years now. That's why it's a cliche. 

 

And yes, it's about the dad not liking him for being gay. "I like the company of men. My father doesn't approve." He spells it out clear as crystal. If you want to delude yourself and say it's not, feel free. But don't whine at me for calling it what it is.

Then everything is cliche, and you should check out of this world because you're in for much more of it.

 

I don't care how old you are, your argument is silly. He's not whining about his father not loving him for being gay, he's greatly upset over his father being a hypocrite and using the one thing he taught his son to hate, to make him protect his image and do what he saw as what was "best" for him. I'm 22, turning 23. Not that it matters. I know the difference between an actual cliche and something that simply has familiar subject matter. Seems that many here however do not.

 

You want to throw quotes around, then stop ignoring the rest of what Dorian says:

 

 

Before people keep spouting their bullshit about Dorian's sidequest being all about the gay:

 

 

"That's what this is about?"

 

"That's not all it's about."

 

"He taught me to hate blood magic. It's for the weakminded, those were his words. But what was the first thing he did when the heir wouldn't play pretend? He tried to change me. All for his ****** legacy."

 

Open your ears and quit lying, all you wanted to hear was queer.

[BansheeOwnage]

Of course it's a two way street. Halward didn't just jump to blood magic either.  It accumulated to that event based on mutual disrespect and lack of compromise on BOTH sides. 

 

And let me repeat, that I don't think Dorian should do whatever his father tells him to.  I just wanted some consequences for Dorian choosing not to and I would have liked to have seen two sides of the story told.  Right now, we have primarily a one sided story going on here, from one person's pov.  Not saying Dorian can't be trusted but one side of the story just isn't the full story.

I just don't think it matters much that blood magic wasn't his immediate solution. It should never have even been considered as one. Such a betrayal (and as others have said, a betrayal on multiple levels), would to many people be unforgivable and completely justify Dorian's actions or lack thereof. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Dorian needed to do more than he did. He shouldn't have to compromise who he is just so his parents can continue their legacy.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree there. I thought Halward's side was explained fine, it just didn't have much going for it as far as I was concerned.

 

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the term. The truth of the matter is that Dorian's quest is a cliched after-school special about being gay, and the dad who won't accept it. There are many out there who try to pin it on so many other things, but simply can't accept it. 

 

If you like cliched dialogue, then by all means like the quest. I just don't expect to shell out $60 just to hear it. 

Uh-huh. If you think something that general is cliché, then basically everything in fiction and reality is cliché. Plus, that wasn't all the quest was about, as it said flat-out during the quest. Who is desperate to pin it on something here?

[Youknow]

 

He also mentions during the convo with his father that his father taught him to despise blood magic. That's actually a big part of why Dorian felt so betrayed by his father. I mean it was bad enough his father was trying to force him to be other than who he was, but the fact he was resorting to something he had always told Dorian was not ok was an additional level of betrayal. There's no where in the game where Dorian seriously indicates he thinks Blood Magic is fine.

 

Which does not personally say that he detests it. And how he doesn't agree with his father on things. Dorian feels betrayed because his father reneged on his actions and such actions would have compromised Dorian himself. There is no where in the scene that says he opposes its practice in and of itself. 

 

 

 

Dorian just flat out says that blood mages are idiots... (after the episode in the fade)

I could have sworn he called those specific blood mages idiots. As in what they were doing there was just plain idiotic, of which, I agree with that. Completely and utterly. 

[DuskWanderer]

And yet it hits close to home for a lot of people. It's relatable. Not every little bit of story has to be super elaborate with twists and turns at every corner to make it interesting. 

 

It might be cliche for some and for others it's very much reality. 

 

Pro Tip: If you don't want to do Dorian's quest, don't do Dorian's quest. If you do it once by mistake and don't like it you never have to do it again. 

 

No, not every piece of a story needs to twist and turn, but no one should be satisfied with cliches. 

 

I don't do Dorian's quest. It's not a matter of whether or not I am forced to do it, it's whether or not it's any good, that's the point of the topic.

[DuskWanderer]

Then everything is cliche, and you should check out of this world because you're in for much more of it.

 

I don't care how old you are, your argument is silly. He's not whining about his father not loving him for being gay, he's greatly upset over his father being a hypocrite and using the one thing he taught his son to hate, to make him protect his image and do what he saw as what was "best" for him. I'm 22, turning 23. Not that it matters. I know the difference between an actual cliche and something that simply has familiar subject matter. Seems that many here however do not.

 

You want to throw quotes around, then stop ignoring the rest of what Dorian says:

 

Friendly bit of advice, telling someone they should commit suicide is not a great thing to do. Your argument is fake and reeks of shallow desperation to defend a character. You clearly don't know what a cliche is, it's a tired and overly-used plot device with no interesting twists and turns. Something that is stale and overused. Which this is. Accept it and move on. 

[DuskWanderer]

I just don't think it matters much that blood magic wasn't his immediate solution. It should never have even been considered as one. Such a betrayal (and as others have said, a betrayal on multiple levels), would to many people be unforgivable and completely justify Dorian's actions or lack thereof. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Dorian needed to do more than he did. He shouldn't have to compromise who he is just so his parents can continue their legacy.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree there. I thought Halward's side was explained fine, it just didn't have much going for it as far as I was concerned.

 

Uh-huh. If you think something that general is cliché, then basically everything in fiction and reality is cliché. Plus, that wasn't all the quest was about, as it said flat-out during the quest. Who is desperate to pin it on something here?

 

You, clearly. You're desperate to pin things on some "legacy" child. You make up nonsense about playing a game providing no in-game evidence to support it. After all, Dorian's arranged marriage only comes up in an optional conversation with Varric, never part of the mission. 

 

Cliches are avoided by twisting and changing. Sleight of hand tricks to make one surprised, when the revelation turns out to be something else. This did not do that. Stop whining about how someone doesn't like your favorite character and favorite cliche and move on. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Friendly bit of advice, telling someone they should commit suicide is not a great thing to do. Your argument is fake and reeks of shallow desperation to defend a character. You clearly don't know what a cliche is, it's a tired and overly-used plot device with no interesting twists and turns. Something that is stale and overused. Which this is. Accept it and move on. 

I said you should leave this world if you want to avoid cliches. It obviously wasn't serious, and I didn't even mean suicide, sensitive sally.

 

Friendly bit of advice, telling me my argument is fake while restating your poorly formed opinion and backing it up with nothing makes you look like an idiot. Goodnight.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also why the hell would I be desperate to defend Dorian, I'm not a homosexual, and his quest didn't hit any personal notes. So there's absolutely no reason for me to have any "shallow desperation" for Dorian.

[BansheeOwnage]

You, clearly. You're desperate to pin things on some "legacy" child. You make up nonsense about playing a game providing no in-game evidence to support it. After all, Dorian's arranged marriage only comes up in an optional conversation with Varric, never part of the mission. 

 

Cliches are avoided by twisting and changing. Sleight of hand tricks to make one surprised, when the revelation turns out to be something else. This did not do that. Stop whining about how someone doesn't like your favorite character and favorite cliche and move on. 

It is because of the "legacy". I don't know how that could be more clear. I have provided my evidence, as have others. It's right there in the game for you to listen to. I don't know how that has to do with his arranged marriage.

 

Well unfortunately for you, clichés are obviously subjective. I don't see one. Maybe you've seen stories like this a lot, I don't know. But in my opinion, this quest isn't a cliché either way since it actually does provide something deeper (the legacy thing). You seem intent to pretend it doesn't exist, but that's not my problem.

 

You're assuming a lot about me, what I like and how I think. Don't. I could be totally ambivalent to Dorian for all you know.

[SentinelMacDeath]

You, clearly. You're desperate to pin things on some "legacy" child. You make up nonsense about playing a game providing no in-game evidence to support it. After all, Dorian's arranged marriage only comes up in an optional conversation with Varric, never part of the mission. 

 

Cliches are avoided by twisting and changing. Sleight of hand tricks to make one surprised, when the revelation turns out to be something else. This did not do that. Stop whining about how someone doesn't like your favorite character and favorite cliche and move on. 

 

Dorian himself brings up the topic of arranged marriage (not the name of his intended) and how he doesn't want to end up like his parents. That is in game evidence. After "Last Resort of Good Men" :

 

D: "I wouldn't put on a show, marry the girl, keep everything unsavory private and locked away. Selfish, I suppose, not to want to spend my entire life screaming on the inside. He was going to do a blood ritual, alter my mind, make me acceptable. I found out, I left. 

 

Or you know, Dorian's conversation with his father in his personal quest when it comes to legacy:

 

D: "But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

H: "I only wanted what was best for you"

D: "You wanted the best for you! For your ****** legacy! Anything for that!"

[Xilizhra]

You, clearly. You're desperate to pin things on some "legacy" child. You make up nonsense about playing a game providing no in-game evidence to support it. After all, Dorian's arranged marriage only comes up in an optional conversation with Varric, never part of the mission. 

 

Cliches are avoided by twisting and changing. Sleight of hand tricks to make one surprised, when the revelation turns out to be something else. This did not do that. Stop whining about how someone doesn't like your favorite character and favorite cliche and move on. 

One doesn't make oneself sound particularly convincing when one says "move on" after triple posting near-identical rants about the same topic.

[Youknow]

So it's Dorian's fault that all you can think about is "gay gay gay" once it's mentioned? That's the dumbest excuse I've ever heard.

 

 

What are you talking about? If you read my entire first post you'd know what I said. The fact that Dorian brings up that he prefers the company of men first, and then goes into the marriage portion is what causes it to be eclipsed. You'd think in this situation the first thing that would be brought up first and foremost was the blood magic usage to alter his mind and his dad changing on his moral compass to change Dorian. Not a "that's not all." Blood magic brainwashing hardly falls under a "no, that's not all." The fact that Dorian says that his father couldn't handle the scandal -- which would be him being gay -- is an issue with the scene as wel. Like I said, it eclipses the main issue. IE, it obscures it. I'd say that's a great way of saying that. It seems like people that are defending the seen are concentrating on "Oh my gosh people hate gay because GAY was mentioned" more than the fact that the scene... Just isn't well written. 

 

The scene of "Dorian goes to meet his father" is good. The way the scene plays out is not. Sort of how I like the idea of Dragon Age 2, but the way the acts play out, I don't think anyone would argue that the game handles the transitions to different acts rather clumsy. 

[SentinelMacDeath]

it would make 0 sense to bring up the mind altering blood magic without the big "why". Him being gay is part of it, not all of it is about him being gay though. 

[Colonelkillabee]

 

What are you talking about?

I quoted what I was talking about:

 

 

And in the character quest, all of that is eclipsed by the direction the conversation goes when you meet with Dorian's father. 

Which you said in response to this:

 

"Lol you were if you were paying attention to Dorian's dialogue. It's rather evident. I think that's the problem with this. People don't listen to him when he tells you about himself and his family."

 

Which makes my statement perfectly clear. You dismissed everything for "the direction the conversation goes", don't sidestep it now. You even said it again.

 

"The fact that Dorian brings up that he enjoys the company of men first". ""Thats what causes the rest to be eclipsed".

 

Smh. You just showed I was right.

[Youknow]

it would make 0 sense to bring up the mind altering blood magic without the big "why". Him being gay is part of it, not all of it is about him being gay though. 

Sure it does. Because with the way the scene carries out, I'd assume THIS is what finally pushed him over the edge. Not the fact that his dad has a problem with his sexuality. Thing is, even if Dorian were heterosexual but just didn't want to marry the woman that was dubbed as perfect, his dad might have still tried to do this. To make it clearer to understand what I mean -- I can't speak for others -- but it'd be like you selling 2 vacuum bags for $200 and then adding the "that's not all" for the vacuum itself. Clearly the vacuum is what's making the entire deal cost so much, so it just seems odd to mention the bags first like they are the more enticing , pivotal point of interest. Hence why I said, it seems like the writer knew what was desired, but couldn't quite express things in words how they wanted it.  

 

As for it leaving a "why" by mentioning blood magic first. That would still be fine. The conversation was meant to be between his dad and Dorian, it's already happened off screen before you even left, the "why's and hows" should be us asking for that later on down the line-- which the inquisitor does a good job of asking about it regardless here. And ironically enough, the scene starts with Dorian actually proclaiming wild guesses because he's so initially dismayed by the mere presence of his father. So it starts off pretty good to be honest. It just becomes muddled when the first bona fide issue is brought up. 

 

 

Which you said in response to this:

 

"Lol you were if you were paying attention to Dorian's dialogue. It's rather evident. I think that's the problem with this. People don't listen to him when he tells you about himself and his family."

 

Which makes my statement perfectly clear. You dismissed everything for "the direction the conversation goes", don't sidestep it now. You even said it again.

 

"The fact that Dorian brings up that he enjoys the company of men first". ""Thats what causes the rest to be eclipsed".

 

Smh. You just showed I was right.

 

But if you read my first post made, you'd know that I do like the idea of the scene already. I just thought the scene sort of sucked. Because other problems are eclipsed does not mean they are dismissed. The issue is that the game has him mention the company of men, and then investigate options come up, and then Dorian talks about the legacy. Of which is actually shorter than the beginning where the player interacts with Dorian about him preferring the company of men. 

[HurraFTP]

 

I could have sworn he called those specific blood mages idiots. As in what they were doing there was just plain idiotic, of which, I agree with that. Completely and utterly. 

 

I don't have the exact quote but it's something like:

"There's a lot of idiots in this world who think that if they use enough blood magic their problem will vanish. It's exactly the sort of thing I want to stop back home".

So, no, it's about blood magic in general.

[Youknow]

I don't have the exact quote but it's something like:

"There's a lot of idiots in this world who think that if they use enough blood magic their problem will vanish. It's exactly the sort of thing I want to stop back home".

So, no, it's about blood magic in general.

 

Maybe. I'll believe you, because I don't remember the exact quote myself either. It's possible I remembered that quote just incorrectly enough to misinterpret that. 

[Arlee]

I just don't think it matters much that blood magic wasn't his immediate solution. It should never have even been considered as one. Such a betrayal (and as others have said, a betrayal on multiple levels), would to many people be unforgivable and completely justify Dorian's actions or lack thereof. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Dorian needed to do more than he did. He shouldn't have to compromise who he is just so his parents can continue their legacy.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree there. I thought Halward's side was explained fine, it just didn't have much going for it as far as I was concerned.

 

This is sort of a crux of an issue. I mean what's forgivable and unforgivable are totally personal things and vary a lot person to person. To me the thing which comes across clearly is Halward does truly regret the things he said and did which made Dorian, and in my mind that matters a lot. I'm not saying things would be instantly patched up and all good, it would take time and work on both sides to repair the damage and even they'd never have the sort of relationship they had previous (of which there is a lot of in game evidence Dorian and his father had quite a good relationship especially if you run around with Cole and Dorian).

 

But for other people all that would matter is the fact Halward tried to force his son to change and conform, which I also get. This is one of the reasons why I think they gave us the option of reconciling them or not. Though I am curious how the second convo with Dorian plays out if you don't reconcile them, I'm guessing there's no change though because it's vague enough to work either way.

 

I don't have the exact quote but it's something like:

"There's a lot of idiots in this world who think that if they use enough blood magic their problem will vanish. It's exactly the sort of thing I want to stop back home".

So, no, it's about blood magic in general.

 

I think that's pretty much the exact quote.  Youtube is blocked at work so I can't check my videos to double check

[Colonelkillabee]

 

But if you read my first post made, you'd know that I do like the idea of the scene already. I just thought the scene sort of sucked. Because other problems are eclipsed does not mean they are dismissed. The issue is that the game has him mention the company of men, and then investigate options come up, and then Dorian talks about the legacy. Of which is actually shorter than the beginning where the player interacts with Dorian about him preferring the company of men. 

It's shorter because the big shocking thing is that his father tried to manipulate his mind with magic.... which is kind of a big deal...

 

I'm willing to entertain what you're saying, if you concede to the point that it's a big deal made for the method of change, rather than what is needed to be changed in his father's eyes.

[BSpud]

 I don't know how old you are, but I'm 30. I've been seeing the same story for about 20 years now. That's why it's a cliche.

 

LOL. How adorable.

[Iakus]

I too wondered why they only ever had one kid. Maybe they thought they hit the Archon jackpot with a mage son on first try?

Given their relationship (and not the front they put on) I'm guessing one kid was the minimum amount of "duty" they could get away with and stayed the hell away from each other ever since.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dorian himself brings up the topic of arranged marriage (not the name of his intended) and how he doesn't want to end up like his parents. That is in game evidence. After "Last Resort of Good Men" :

 

D: "I wouldn't put on a show, marry the girl, keep everything unsavory private and locked away. Selfish, I suppose, not to want to spend my entire life screaming on the inside. He was going to do a blood ritual, alter my mind, make me acceptable. I found out, I left. 

 

Or you know, Dorian's conversation with his father in his personal quest when it comes to legacy:

 

D: "But what was the first thing you did when your precious heir refused to play pretend for the rest of his life? You tried to change me."

H: "I only wanted what was best for you"

D: "You wanted the best for you! For your ****** legacy! Anything for that!"

See, the thing that proves to me that the legacy was the important part of the quest and not Dorian's homosexuality, is that I can read the above quotes and not know that Dorian is gay at all. He could be straight and the quest could play out the same way.