100 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

Wandering around the Conclave for 20 minutes would have detracted from the mystery around the cause of the explosion, yes? Was it the mages, or even the templars? Could the Inquisitor even be responsible?

I would also note that part of the reasons Origins "worked" is because they were all revisited as part of the storyline. Even if most of the people were gone or dead, you ended up re-encountering someone from that origin. The Dalish origin is often considered the weakest because it just had that one appearance by Tamlen.

I wouldn't say Origins would necessarily make the game better unless they have some impact on the larger plot.

[Knight of Dane]

Not really, you see Corypheus clearly when trying to close the breach the first time in the intro. You'd have to have not played Dragon Age 2 + DLC to not recognize him. I never felt suspicious of either Templars or Mages.

 

On the other hand, having that prologue might have allowed bioware to set the templars and mages more clearly up as antagonists in that ragard. Also remove the Corypheus ghost from the breach flashback, that was nuts.

[Bleachrude]

I;m not sure Ostwick is THAT boring given that a mage inquisitor can state she grew up wtih her family. To make it closer to Origins, we really should've been able to interact with people that knew us beforehand....

[riverbanks]

I find it ironic that fans of the blank slate origin treat the DAI style as how Dragon Age should be. The beginning of the game series started with a strong backstory.

 

Actually, no one's really said the blank slate is how the game should be, only that that's how they prefer it. The only ones saying the game should be a certain way are those saying it should always be like DAO.

 

The beginning of the game series started with a strong backstory.

 

Yes, and that's exactly why that game is subtitled Origins. According to the developers themselves, the origin stories were the differential of that game, and that's one of the many reason they won't be repeating that trick again.

 

A few minutes of roaming around establishing some connections and early characterization wouldn't hurt anyone (not even those that prefer blank slates, that's a first opportunity to start establishing your story), more reactivity to and awareness of your race and class would narratively benefit everyone too, but hoping for full-length complex and extended origin stories like those in DAO is a fool's errand at this point, when the devs have said it how many times that they're not going back to that format.

[Qun00]

The conversation with Josephine is very detailed and every now and then you get a moment when your background is mentioned.

Ex: When Vivienne brings up the three mages per clan rule among the Dalish.

There is enough information. We just don't get to see it on screen like we did in DAO.

Y'all are lazy.

[vertigomez]

That's the point, though. I want to see it on screen.

[Qun00]

I wasn't discussing your point.

I'm arguing against the idea that the Inquisitor is a full blank slate.

[Knight of Dane]

Inquisition isn't full blank slate.

 

It is somewhere in between the Origins idea and the blank slate that is too much for those who only like blank slate, and too little for those that liked the Origins element. It's awkward narrative design.

[Ashaantha]

5am musings.. I don't want to slog through 2-4 hours of a Origin story again like in Origins. I just want more info about my character then  a 2 min half-assed lazily added conversation with an adviser, and a mage chat with vivienne that was rather out of place (why were you at the conclave? mages should be free) was able to give me. I like that we could have a very short chat with Josephine about the character's past, or one tiny aspect of it, but I hate how it was implemented, and for giving only 2-3 reply options that cancelled out everything else (I have my reasons for disliking that) plus the conversation made very little sense over-all, was chunky. That said Qunari Inquisitor however had me tearing my hair out to know more about what they just spoke about, while the other 3 races had me tearing out my hair to just know something, almost anything about them... And I hated playing a Qunari, their 2 min chat was just the most interesting.

 

I would happily go through 2-4 hours of interacting with aspects of the protagonists past if, and only if, it was scattered in small snippets and spread out throughout the entire course of the game in interesting spots, say trying to get through a main quest you run into someone from your past and have to figure out why they're there and why they want to help, is it a friend? a disliked person pretending? a rival from the past? doesn't matter. Just have it scattered through the entire game instead of one big chunk and a few mentions afterwards is fine with me, not just a couple of short conversations that make little sense

[vbibbi]

I'm reposting what I've said on other threads. I think there are methods that could have been used to keep the mystery and suspense in DAI but keeping a prologue in the game.

 

 

The PC starts at the ToSA and can express their reasons for being there. Each race has the basic reason why they're attending, but the player could express different attitudes about that reason. E.g. a human mage could be there to represent the Ostwick Circle but actually be planning to escape their templar escort and join the rebel mage leaders or provide troop movement information to them. Or they could pretend to be friendly with rebel mages and try to learn some information which would be helpful to the templars or Chantry. Lots of roleplaying options involving the existing dialogue wheel.

 

Then we end the prologue by being tasked to give something to the Divine, find her chambers locked (avoiding making You Know Who look stupid for lax security) and have to find a method to reach the Divine.

 

What could have been cool is if the Conclave had us doing a series of tasks to help people, including the Grey Wardens. Somehow, the PC is responsible for securing a private audience with the Wardens and the Divine. So we inadvertently ARE partially responsible for her death by allowing Cory access to her. That would help explain how the Wardens got her alone, and why we were in the vicinity. We would find this out in the Fade memories, and could then roleplay feigning ignorance about this revelation or come clean to Cassandra and admit that we had a part to play in the explosion.

 

Just as we enter the chambers, the room explodes and we wake up in the Fade. Then the rest of the game progresses as normal. We still have no memory of what occurred between the temple and our escape from the Fade. Heck, we can even think we ARE guilty of causing the explosion, if we roleplayed as someone trying to sabotage the Chantry.

 

And since everything ends the same way, we don't need to worry about consequences of these choices affecting the rest of the game.

 

I think it would have been more compelling of a story had there been more uncertainty of our role in the temple's explosion. The game proves our innocence pretty quickly and then moves on from there, but it could have been interesting to have our role as the lesser of two evils, that Cassandra is not sure of our innocence but we're the only ones who can close rifts, so for the moment we're on probation as we help bring order. Then, based on our actions we can either prove our innocence to her or increase her suspicions. Again, we find out in the Fade the truth, so it won't affect the main plot, just give some roleplaying flavor.

[vbibbi]

Actually, no one's really said the blank slate is how the game should be, only that that's how they prefer it. The only ones saying the game should be a certain way are those saying it should always be like DAO.

 

 

Yes, and that's exactly why that game is subtitled Origins. According to the developers themselves, the origin stories were the differential of that game, and that's one of the many reason they won't be repeating that trick again.

 

A few minutes of roaming around establishing some connections and early characterization wouldn't hurt anyone (not even those that prefer blank slates, that's a first opportunity to start establishing your story), more reactivity to and awareness of your race and class would narratively benefit everyone too, but hoping for full-length complex and extended origin stories like those in DAO is a fool's errand at this point, when the devs have said it how many times that they're not going back to that format.

Fair point, and I wasn't aware the devs had said full blown origins were a one-time thing only. I fear that sometimes it feels like Bio doesn't want to repeat successful aspects of a game purely because it would "no longer be original" rather than because it does/does not make sense.

 

You're right, an origin separated from the narrative of the main game like DAO isn't necessary. I would just prefer more of a background prior to waking up in the Fade. As it played out, I didn't feel the in medias res was successful in the goal of raising tension and suspicion of our character, because any doubt as to our guilt was quickly erased and never brought up again. If there actually WAS doubt on the player's side whether the PC had any involvement could have been an interesting game mechanic.

[Korva]

Wandering around the Conclave for 20 minutes would have detracted from the mystery around the cause of the explosion, yes? Was it the mages, or even the templars? Could the Inquisitor even be responsible.

 

Agreed. Being thrown right into the action without preamble was extremely effective at making me feel what my character must have felt (though admittedly the shock of the countless deaths was not as effective as it might have been with more detail). Plus, a leisurely ambling intro would probably only have driven home how flimsy the excuses for anyone but a human character's presence are. For security reasons, absolutely no one who isn't a trusted and certified member of a delegation or has Justinia's direct confidence should have been allowed within at least a mile of Haven.

 

I wouldn't say Origins would necessarily make the game better unless they have some impact on the larger plot.

 

Agreed with this as well, and for me at least the origins failed on that account as well as being not very good on their own terms. Granted, the only one who really got past Ostagar was my human noble, who is apparently the weakest by far in terms of origin-specific dialog? Even so the only two times I actually felt like Cousland instead of a cipher was when Bryce's ghost (or a spirit that posed as him) appeared in the gauntlet of the Sacred Ashes, and when Fergus showed up at my funeral. And even that was a dud because of how impersonal his appearance felt.

 

I much prefer Inquisition's approach because it gives me a basic framework on which I can build a background that actually interests me, and because it make no pretenses about the past being in any way important, as the general feeling of disappointment with the origins did.

[draken-heart]

 

Oh, thanks? Also, did not mean to use your name for Sylvia (my trevelyan)'s nickname.

[riverbanks]

You're right, an origin separated from the narrative of the main game like DAO isn't necessary. I would just prefer more of a background prior to waking up in the Fade. As it played out, I didn't feel the in medias res was successful in the goal of raising tension and suspicion of our character, because any doubt as to our guilt was quickly erased and never brought up again. If there actually WAS doubt on the player's side whether the PC had any involvement could have been an interesting game mechanic.

 

I do actually agree that full media in res is not a good start for the videogame format in general, with very rare exceptions, and that's as someone who does prefer characters more vague than super defined. The only game I remember recently doing a good media in res start was ME2, and that's because we already knew Shepard. But DA2 did it poorly (showing default Hawke before we could even customize our own), DAI didn't do it that great either... even Skyrim, which gives you a full tabula rasa of a character, gives you a minute to settle down and establish a few rules before everything goes boom (oh hey prisoner sorry you were caught in this mess of ours, this is Ulfric Remember His Name He'll Be Important, that's General Also Remember His Name Too, those are elves we don't like elves, etc).

 

Ideally, I would prefer a short prologue that lets you settle into the game and breathe in your character's shoes for a bit before everything goes to hell but doesn't take a million hours to finish, and shorter/less repetitive tutorial levels (Ostagar was the worst, but DA2's Lothering and DAI's Temple levels got old real fast too). The ME3 prologue was probably my favorite - you had a few minutes to get your head back on the game (or figure out who Shepard is if that was your first time playing ME), then the action started, the tutorial was short, and that was it, you had control of your character in a matter of minutes.

 

The main issue with the character feeling too vague is, as other people said, the lack of reactivity from the game. It does suck that we lost more immersive background choices and related quests when we moved from human-only to all-races, but the other hand of that is that we wouldn't have had multiple races at all if we'd kept the background options. Hopefully they'll go into DA4 already knowing from the start whether they intend to do single or multiple races, so these things can be worked out well in advance.

[BansheeOwnage]

Sure, they were trained to eventually be shunted off to the Templars. The Trevelyan family tosses one third or fourth child to the Chantry every generation and the Inquisitor was the lucky candidate.

I don't think you comprehend how boring Ostwick is. It's so boring that its most notable feature is its double walls, which ensures its citizens live out their extremely boring lives in peace. It's the Planet Namek of Thedas.

But that's not the worst thing; lots of heroes had boring early lives. You don't think Luke Skywalker was eager to leave the moisture farm because it was so darn exciting, do you?

My point is that a city being "boring" is an incredibly poor excuse not to have an origin. It could be boring except for this one thing that happened, or maybe the origin would actually be about how boring it is. But there should be one.

 

And I've heard the same reasoning with DAI - people don't bother trying on different races because the tutorial level at the Temple is so dull and long.

Really? Personal preference, but I never had a problem with The Wrath of Heaven besides the annoying tutorial prompts you can't disable for some reason.

[BansheeOwnage]

The conversation with Josephine is very detailed and every now and then you get a moment when your background is mentioned.

There is enough information. We just don't get to see it on screen like we did in DAO.

Y'all are lazy.

Ah yes, "very detailed." We have dismissed that claim. It's not lazy not to want to do the writers' job for them.

 

 

I think it would have been more compelling of a story had there been more uncertainty of our role in the temple's explosion. The game proves our innocence pretty quickly and then moves on from there, but it could have been interesting to have our role as the lesser of two evils, that Cassandra is not sure of our innocence but we're the only ones who can close rifts, so for the moment we're on probation as we help bring order. Then, based on our actions we can either prove our innocence to her or increase her suspicions. Again, we find out in the Fade the truth, so it won't affect the main plot, just give some roleplaying flavor.

I agree. In fact, most of the mystery in DA:I was solved much too quickly, and consequently we don't even do much inquisiting in the game (ironically, you know almost everything by the time you become Inquisitor). It doesn't take very long to find out who was responsible for the Breach, but more importantly, you don't do much to actively find out; he shows himself. And as you mentioned, the "Am I innocent?" aspect didn't live up to its potential because that gets answered quickly too.

 

Fair point, and I wasn't aware the devs had said full blown origins were a one-time thing only. I fear that sometimes it feels like Bio doesn't want to repeat successful aspects of a game purely because it would "no longer be original" rather than because it does/does not make sense.

Bioware is dumb like that. Sometimes they choose to do or not do something not based on narrative value, but on something arbitrary like "We did that already" or "We'll keep doing it that way because that's how it's always been done." Excellent reasoning.

 

Oh, thanks? Also, did not mean to use your name for Sylvia (my trevelyan)'s nickname.

It's not like I own the copyright for the name Banshee, I was just making a joke

[vbibbi]

 

Agreed with this as well, and for me at least the origins failed on that account as well as being not very good on their own terms. Granted, the only one who really got past Ostagar was my human noble, who is apparently the weakest by far in terms of origin-specific dialog? Even so the only two times I actually felt like Cousland instead of a cipher was when Bryce's ghost (or a spirit that posed as him) appeared in the gauntlet of the Sacred Ashes, and when Fergus showed up at my funeral. And even that was a dud because of how impersonal his appearance felt.

 

I much prefer Inquisition's approach because it gives me a basic framework on which I can build a background that actually interests me, and because it make no pretenses about the past being in any way important, as the general feeling of disappointment with the origins did.

 

To be fair, the Cousland and Dalish origins were the only two which did not have origin-specific encounters in the game world after the origin, so you did not see the reactivity if you didn't play the others past Ostagar. I think it's a little short sighted to make an argument against the origins' influence in the rest of the game if you've only ever played through one. The origins were not constantly referred to throughout the game, no, but the references to them felt more organic than DAI's race dialogue options.

 

Also, I'm not sure why the past of our character wouldn't be important. This is a narrative focused game, and I play the PC as a character in that world, not as a stand in for me. So I want to see that character's past influence their actions.

 

Ideally, I would prefer a short prologue that lets you settle into the game and breathe in your character's shoes for a bit before everything goes to hell but doesn't take a million hours to finish, and shorter/less repetitive tutorial levels (Ostagar was the worst, but DA2's Lothering and DAI's Temple levels got old real fast too). The ME3 prologue was probably my favorite - you had a few minutes to get your head back on the game (or figure out who Shepard is if that was your first time playing ME), then the action started, the tutorial was short, and that was it, you had control of your character in a matter of minutes.

 

The main issue with the character feeling too vague is, as other people said, the lack of reactivity from the game. It does suck that we lost more immersive background choices and related quests when we moved from human-only to all-races, but the other hand of that is that we wouldn't have had multiple races at all if we'd kept the background options. Hopefully they'll go into DA4 already knowing from the start whether they intend to do single or multiple races, so these things can be worked out well in advance.

 

Yes, agreed on all of this! I will hope that the development for DA4 has race selection from the start, as you say. DAI seems like it was overly ambitious in total, and Bio spread itself too thin. They bit off more than they could chew, even with the extra year of development.

[Heimdall]

To be fair, the Cousland and Dalish origins were the only two which did not have origin-specific encounters in the game world after the origin, so you did not see the reactivity if you didn't play the others past Ostagar. I think it's a little short sighted to make an argument against the origins' influence in the rest of the game if you've only ever played through one. The origins were not constantly referred to throughout the game, no, but the references to them felt more organic than DAI's race dialogue options.

Well, Cousland had Howe, and extra motivation to hate him (Not to mention the most options when it comes to the Throne potentially), so they did have that.  The Dalish got nothing, which is why they slipped it into Witch Hunt.

[vertigomez]

Also, I'm not sure why the past of our character wouldn't be important. This is a narrative focused game, and I play the PC as a character in that world, not as a stand in for me. So I want to see that character's past influence their actions.

Thiiiiis. More reactivity after the prologue would've been nice, but I didn't actually need it because my character had lived their past. I knew who they were and how their background would affect decisions later on - my DC was driven to help Isolde because the idea of a mother who was willing to sacrifice her life for her child resonated with him, what with his own mother being an abusive alcoholic and all. That character gave Zevran and Loghain a second chance because Duncan had done the same for him when he was nothing but a filthy casteless criminal. He was protective of Leliana because she reminded him of his sister, etc.

That the game didn't poke me with a reminder stick about my past every time didn't matter so much, because I had "lived" it, if that makes any sense.

Well, Cousland had Howe, and extra motivation to hate him (Not to mention the most options when it comes to the Throne potentially), so they did have that.  The Dalish got nothing, which is why they slipped it into Witch Hunt.

Well, a Dalish Warden gets to confront ghoul!Tamlen. And you get to have a lil chat around the campfire when you run into Zathrian's clan. Still pretty lackluster I suppose.

[Korva]

Really? Personal preference, but I never had a problem with The Wrath of Heaven besides the annoying tutorial prompts you can't disable for some reason.

 

To me, it was actually one of the better "tutorial stages" that Bioware has done so far despite the fact that the game mechanics struck me as weak right from the start. The atmosphere and the characters did the trick of drawing me in and getting me invested.

 

To be fair, the Cousland and Dalish origins were the only two which did not have origin-specific encounters in the game world after the origin, so you did not see the reactivity if you didn't play the others past Ostagar. I think it's a little short sighted to make an argument against the origins' influence in the rest of the game if you've only ever played through one.

 

Thing is, one origin should be as detailed as any other when it comes to how much impact it has on the game. If that impact is essentially zero, I see no reason to assume I just picked a "bad" one and try again hoping for something better ... especially if I didn't even enjoy any of the other origins I tried. (That's another reason why I'm not keen on an overly detailed background: the real risk of simply not liking it one bit and being put off the game before it even gets off the ground.)

 

Also, I'm not sure why the past of our character wouldn't be important. This is a narrative focused game, and I play the PC as a character in that world, not as a stand in for me. So I want to see that character's past influence their actions.

 

What I mean is because Bioware traditionally does not treat the protagonist as a character, it was almost a given that their past will not matter. Only actual characters have meaningful backstories. Origin was based on the false premise that the background would matter, Inquisition was more honest by not giving us much of a background to begin with. I'd like to see the past influence the actual game even though my preferences lean towards less writer-imposed detail, but it's unlikely.

 

Well, Cousland had Howe, and extra motivation to hate him

I honestly didn't feel anything when he died. He was just Loghain's generic evil henchman, and what attachment I had to the Couslands happened so long ago, with nothing to revive it in the meantime except for a few words from might-or-might-not-be-dad's-ghost early on, that there was simply no sense of anything personal in killing him.

 

I've been thinking about what it would take for me to feel like the origins had any worth or impact. For one, it would have helped to have a permanent companion from each origin. They'd be available for recruitment to every protagonist, but their associated origin would have the potential for a closer bond if the player so desires. Wynne for the mages, Gorim for the dwarven noble, hell even the dog could have worked if the human noble had a much better rapport with and understanding of him than the other origins. And of course the Warden should be able to talk about herself now and then instead of just being a sounding board for the NPCs.

[vbibbi]

 

Thing is, one origin should be as detailed as any other when it comes to how much impact it has on the game. If that impact is essentially zero, I see no reason to assume I just picked a "bad" one and try again hoping for something better ... especially if I didn't even enjoy any of the other origins I tried. (That's another reason why I'm not keen on an overly detailed background: the real risk of simply not liking it one bit and being put off the game before it even gets off the ground.)

 

 

What I mean is because Bioware traditionally does not treat the protagonist as a character, it was almost a given that their past will not matter. Only actual characters have meaningful backstories. Origin was based on the false premise that the background would matter, Inquisition was more honest by not giving us much of a background to begin with. I'd like to see the past influence the actual game even though my preferences lean towards less writer-imposed detail, but it's unlikely.

 

Well, on the first point, I like to think it does provide replayability by having different content throughout the game due to different origins. It would be frustrating if you didn't connect strongly with any of the origins, so I can see why you weren't encouraged to try other run throughs. I luckily did enjoy several of the origins, so it was easy enough for me to play different origins. I have played a full run of each of the DAI races, multiple genders, with both mage and non mage Trevelyans. The reactivity was much weaker to me than it had been in DAO.

 

On Bioware treating PC as a character or not, I think it depends on the game: KotOR definitely had the PC as a character in the game world. DA2 as well, though I know that was one of the criticisms some made of the game. ME varies, as the first game Shepard is more blank slate with interchangeable background missions, ME2 relies on Paragon and Renegade to set Shep's tone, and ME3 had a lot of cut scenes auto dialoguing Shep's personality.

 

BG was a very set PC background, understandably, although once leaving Candlekeep we had free range in terms of characterization.

 

So it's a mixed bag in terms of how the PC is treated as a character. DAI does do a good job of providing more of a customizable blank slate, which sounds like it's more your style. I prefer a more fleshed out background, so it makes sense that we're on two opinions about DAI's intro

[Knight of Dane]

The noble origins does have some reactivity.

 

A personal vendetta against Howe and the ability to become royalty is decently big at least.

 

Oh and for the Dalish, Tamlen does return. Although that is only one scene, and I seem to remember that you can actuallu miss it?

[Heimdall]

The noble origins does have some reactivity.

 

A personal vendetta against Howe and the ability to become royalty is decently big at least.

 

Oh and for the Dalish, Tamlen does return. Although that is only one scene, and I seem to remember that you can actuallu miss it?

Its a random encounter that's very easy to miss if you don't travel enough to trigger it

[Ashaantha]

The noble origins does have some reactivity.

 

A personal vendetta against Howe and the ability to become royalty is decently big at least.

 

Oh and for the Dalish, Tamlen does return. Although that is only one scene, and I seem to remember that you can actuallu miss it?

 

Yup, have to recruit a specific number of companions then camp for the night to get an attack on the camp by darkspawn. He's there with them. I missed it in all my dalish playthroughs, but got the attack on my human noble I keep messing it up haha

tamlen can also tell a female dalish elf his feelings here before he dies if specific dialogue paths had been taken in the origin story.

[Korva]

Well, on the first point, I like to think it does provide replayability by having different content throughout the game due to different origins. It would be frustrating if you didn't connect strongly with any of the origins, so I can see why you weren't encouraged to try other run throughs.

 

I'm admittedly not big on replaying games to begin with, even when I like them a lot, so there's that too. Different backgrounds would have to be both appealing and significantly impact the story to really tempt me.

 

On Bioware treating PC as a character or not, I think it depends on the game:

 

I haven't played the ME series except for a short stint into the first game, or DA2, so I can't comment on those. But generally speaking what I mean is that the protagonist is rarely ever truly allowed to be a person instead of merely a story prop that also provides characterization and development options for the NPCs while getting none in return. I don't know if ME's recurring protagonist or DA2's very closely defined background made the writers do a better job at this? Otherwise it goes all the way back to BG2. Having a detailed background is no more than a red herring if I never get to express the impact it had on my character, so I'd rather not see the devs waste resources on it. Inquisition's approach didn't raise false hopes and gave me the chance to build a headcanon background that I actually enjoyed, so it's a win/win compared to Origins for me.