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Leliana and Aveline: Descendants of Andraste? [SPOILERS]


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#1
Sir Zdanius

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Hi everyone,

I've had this theory since I first read the codex entry about Andraste's children in Josephine's room in the Haven chantry in Inquisition. However, I haven't found any forum posts discussing it across the web so I thought I'd put it out there. It's a bit long, so bear with me. Here goes.

Like I said, this was spurred by a specific codex entry. I'll paraphrase it, but here's a link if you want to read the original:

http://dragonage.wik...ren_of_Andraste
In essence, the codex entry says that Andraste gave birth only to daughters, who gave birth only to daughters and so on. Thus, surviving members of her bloodline, if any, would all be female. However, due to them taking various last names through marriage and the loss of records during the chaotic Second Blight, they could be anywhere and tracking them down is an impossible task.

Now both Leliana and Aveline are human females, so they would fit physically. Both of them are also "good" companions, gaining approval for acts of kindness and righteousness, while losing it for lack of empathy, causing suffering etc. In essence, they always strive to do what's right without compromise: Even though she stands for order and authoruty, Aveline will turn against the templars with Hawke to stop an unjust slaughter of mages. And although she covets the Chant and Chantry, Leliana will enact reforms to equalize races and genders (and mages) and return the Canticle of Shartan to the canonical Chant. They always do what's right, even opposed by insurmountable odds - much like Andraste herself.
Leliana also has a talent and love for song, while Aveline is adamant about defending those who need and deserve protection, adopting a self-sacrificing philosophy in both combat and life. Both of these characteristics were embodied in Andraste, as well.

Another thing that they have in common is that neither of them can remember her mother. This tends to slip past as a generic backstory detail when they speak about their families, but think about it: Both of them have only early memories of their mothers, but the memories are distinctly warm and maternal. They are also almost otherworldly in their grace, as Leliana remembers her mother's "beautiful hair" and ties the memory to the scent of their shared favorite flower - which happens to be called Andraste's Grace. Aveline's memories of her mother are similar, recalling nothing but "flashes of impossibly long hair".

Speaking of hair, both of them are redheads. Now, Andraste's hair color was never canonically confirmed (to my knowledge), but from when I first imagined her in Origins, she was always a redhead in my mind.
There are some frescoes in Inquisition depicting a graceful blonde woman (in the Chantry in Valence, for instance), but it is unclear whether it's Andraste or perhaps a previous Divine. Blonde hair color is also commonly associated with grace and purity, so even if it does depict Andraste, it isn't necessarily true to her image.

EDIT: I just remembered Cassandra actually says Andraste was a ginger while talking to Sera:

  • Sera: So Cassandra, if you were trained young, how long have you been giving Andraste's Hairy Eyeball?
  • Cassandra: Andraste's what?
  • Sera: The Sword-Eye-Hair thing. You know, "Knock-Knock. Inquisition." Andraste's Hairy Eyeball says "What are you doing?"
  • Cassandra: The eye is wreathed in fire. The light of the Maker and the flames of Andraste's Sacrifice.
  • Sera: Oooooooooh. You need better painters. I just figured she was ginger.
  • Cassandra: She was.
  • Sera: Well, there you go, then.
  • Cassandra: (Sighs) No. No there we don't go.

Now this rant about hair color has a point beyond the two of them sharing it. If you've played the Mark of the Assassin DLC for DA2 and took Aveline with you to Chateau Haine, she had a short companion-specific quest which included following her father's family crest to a sealed revenant in a Black Vial. The quest was concluded with a super-cryptic and confusing note about Aveline's lineage which left more questions than answers, but in this context it would make sense.
The paper reads: "Death protect this missive. All marks killed. The grand game continues. Beneath du Lac for She of the Red."
Du Lac is the name of the family of Aveline's father, and the man left a noble life of a chevalier in Orlais to live poor in Ferelden with his daughter. "The Red" could refer to Andraste's bloodline and the telltale red hair identyfing its members, while "She of the Red" could be Aveline's mother, who was discovered by whatever dark forces the sealed revenant belonged to and killed. This would force her father to take her and run from Orlais so that the daughter wasn't discovered and hunted as well. Here's a clip of the dialogue for the quest, so you can check it out for yourself:


All of these things considered, I think the theory makes sense. And I fully expect it to be a major plot point in a future game. What do you think? Any further evidence to support this theory? Some facts that punch a hole it in, perhaps? Do answer, I'm interested in hearing more opinions on this one :D


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#2
Knight of Dane

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All you need now is to make a connection to the Original "Red Jenny," who could also be a descendant of Andraste, if she existed.  :D


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#3
Qun00

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Sure, sure, everyone *must* be a special something now.

Merril is Dirthamen. Velanna is Andruil. Tamlen is Elgar'nan AND HE'S COMING BACK, bitches!!

Ohh, and Sandal is the Maker himself.
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#4
Knight of Dane

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Well you know, in this case it might not actually be far fetched. Don't they say that 0.5% of men are direct descendants of Ghengis Khan and up to 10% within the borders of the Mongol Empire?



#5
riverbanks

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Sure, sure, everyone *must* be a special something now.

 

Hear, hear.

 

I would vastly prefer if characters were just allowed to be themselves, no matter how mundane or ordinary they may be, instead of everyone now needing to be a ultra extra special snowflake descended from Andraste, or yet another elvhen divinity in disguise, or the fifth cousin twice removed of Koslun himself, or super secretly carrying dragon blood from the hidden lineage of Dumat, etc etc.

 

You know, these characters are already cool for who they are. Everyone doesn't need to be super blessed and divine and special to be interesting.


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#6
Wulfram

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Pretty much everyone should be a descendant of Andraste, really. If they survived the first couple of generations, anyway.

If its true that all descendants of Andraste are female, then southern Thedas should probably be running out of men, and the Andrastean bloodline may eventually doom humanity unless they can come up with a magical way of reproducing without men.

(Thedas = Thedassia = Thessia?)
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#7
Sir Zdanius

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I actually made a fairly well-argumented statement. It's okay to disagree with it or dislike it, but there's really no need to be an ass about it.

In fact, I never said that they *needed* to be descendants of Andraste in order to be awesome. Both Leliana and Aveline are in the top 3 companions of their respective games in my book and have been since I first played them. I simply said that it would make sense. The clues are there and I pieced them together. It could be just a series of coincidences. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily right.

So you could at least have said something along the lines of "That actually makes sense, though I hope it isn't the case 'cause it would be lame and detract from the characters, in my opinion." Just blatantly bashing it without any arguments is kinda lame.


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#8
riverbanks

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So you could at least have said something along the lines of "That actually makes sense, though I hope it isn't the case 'cause it would be lame and detract from the characters, in my opinion." Just blatantly bashing it without any arguments is kinda lame.

 

Chill, no one's bashing your idea in specific. We're (or at least I am) just tired of this general trend lately of associating characters with various special snowflake hidden backgrounds. It comes up every other day with a new charcater secretly being an ancient god or descending from some other god, etc; it gets tiresome. But I do apologize for getting moody on your thread, that really wasn't called for.

 

I'm sorry I can't say it makes sense either, even if to make you feel better, because to me it doesn't, really. Sorry, man, it just feels like a lot of circumstancial factoids put together. I hope other people who do see some sense in it can give you more insight to develop the idea, though.


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#9
TheKomandorShepard

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So pretty much like most of such theories you base it on 2 (in that case) minor similarities to someone being female and being redhead. ;)

 

Sorry, but it is like saying that somone is descendant of Hitler just because they are men and have moustache.

 

Aside from fact that Aveline will only protect mages if Hawke have maxed friendship or rivalry otherwise she will help templars and will help mages solely because of hawke, similar personality trait doesn't make you descendant of someone that lived 1000 years ago...

 

And well last thing leliana needs is even more beefing up her mary sue status.


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#10
GoldenGail3

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No. No, stop with these crackpot theories. Sera isn't Andruil, so why should this be any different?

#11
helpthisguyplease

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So pretty much like most of such theories you base it on 2 (in that case) minor similarities to someone being female and being redhead. ;)

 

Sorry, but it is like saying that somone is descendant of Hitler just because they are men and have moustache.

 

Aside from fact that Aveline will only protect mages if Hawke have maxed friendship or rivalry otherwise she will help templars and will help mages solely because of hawke, similar personality trait doesn't make you descendant of someone that lived 1000 years ago...

 

And well last thing leliana needs is even more beefing up her mary sue status.

I am pretty sure chances are that you descended of someone like that there is no statistical way that there is not at least one common ancestor between most humans if you go that far back http://www.theguardi...adam-rutherford.

Going that far back chances are in the favor that they are descended from Andraste but so do every other human on Thedas so there is that.


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#12
TheKomandorShepard

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I am pretty sure chances are that you descended of someone like that there is no statistical way that there is not at least one common ancestor between most humans if you go that far back http://www.theguardi...adam-rutherford.

Going that far back chances are in the favor that they are descended from Andraste but so do every other human on Thedas so there is that.

Unless Andraste and/or her descendents concealed a lot of children (and from what i recall she had 2 daughters?) that scattered all over the world doubtful , assuming that her descendents survived in first place.   

 



#13
WildOrchid

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Sure, sure, everyone *must* be a special something now.

Merril is Dirthamen. Velanna is Andruil. Tamlen is Elgar'nan AND HE'S COMING BACK, bitches!!

Ohh, and Sandal is the Maker himself.

 

No no no, you got it wrong. Sera is Andruil.


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#14
GoldenGail3

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No no no, you got it wrong. Sera is Andruil.


Solas knows that the Evenuras are all locked away in the Black City. He's the one who locked them there.

#15
Knight of Dane

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Solas knows that the Evenuras are all locked away in the Black City. He's the one who locked them there.

 

Yeah, the guy who underestimated Tevinter ingenuity in regards of immortality is *aboslutely 100% sure the Evanuris is still locked away*


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#16
Elista

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About She of the Red... look at https://books.google...gon age&f=false.

Sera is likely to be She of the Red, it is implied that it might be one of her nicknames. And She of the Red was under a "lake without water" (Benoit du Lac / Lac is lake in french). I don't know why she would work for him, another mystery and more questions...
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#17
The_Prophet_of_Donk

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This is all heresy!!!! The true God of this world is my lady, Donk!!!

All praise be given to Donk! She is the light that pierces the darkness! In Her Name, kings bow and emperors cower!

 

Andraste was nothing but a crazy person (much like Leliana) who "spoke" with the Maker!

Donk is the real salvation of this world!


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#18
Donk

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This is all heresy!!!! The true God of this world is my lady, Donk!!!

All praise be given to Donk! She is the light that pierces the darkness! In Her Name, kings bow and emperors cower!

 

Andraste was nothing but a crazy person (much like Leliana) who "spoke" with the Maker!

Donk is the real salvation of this world!

 

Yeah. I never spoke to any of those nutjobs.


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#19
Iakus

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Maybe Leliana is a decendant of Andraste.  Given she's got that whole "I talk to the Maker"/"Ithink I talk to the Maker thing going.

 

No way is Aveline a descendant though.  I'd sooner believe she was Cassandra's long lost sister.


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#20
Darkly Tranquil

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Apophenia seems to be a common problem around here.
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#21
Sir Zdanius

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Chill, no one's bashing your idea in specific. We're (or at least I am) just tired of this general trend lately of associating characters with various special snowflake hidden backgrounds. It comes up every other day with a new charcater secretly being an ancient god or descending from some other god, etc; it gets tiresome. But I do apologize for getting moody on your thread, that really wasn't called for.

 

I'm sorry I can't say it makes sense either, even if to make you feel better, because to me it doesn't, really. Sorry, man, it just feels like a lot of circumstancial factoids put together. I hope other people who do see some sense in it can give you more insight to develop the idea, though.

Nah, it's alright. I neglected to include a quote in the previous post, the blatant bashing part was pointed at Qun00. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I recognize that any "evidence" I offered is hardly conclusive. But to imply that it makes the same amount of sense as a theory where Velanna or Merril, the two blockhead elves (Merril is an endearing blockhead, but a blockhead nonetheless) could be members of the elven pantheon when the only two established ones are intelligent, wise and calculated, often beyond the scope of the main character's perceptions... That's just needlessly rude.

I actually agree with your sentiment that characters should be allowed to be awesome for who they are, rather than what they are. It's like when Varric and Blackwall have that conversation about the greatest knight. The one with a great lineage and flawless record is amazing, but there's no greatness in winning fights where you have the pedigree and everything goes your way. The knight who wins by barely hanging on to her horse, who defies the odds and struggles to achieve something despite not being a special snowflake in any way is truly great. That's the kind of story I like to hear.

Thing is, we really don't know the story of Andraste, but it's fairly clear she was a great person, so I do like the idea of her bloodline surviving. On the other hand, giving people an excuse to say that Leliana or Aveline are awesome because they descend from Andraste would be a major disservice to the characters. So I'd personally be fine whether I'm right or not. I do fully expect a descendant of Andraste to be relevant for a future plot, whether it's one of these two or not.

The "She of the Red" tease in MotA wasn't without point, of course, they will do something with it at some point. Elista makes a fine point about the possibility of it being about Sera or Red Jenny. It could be just about anything, really, it's certainly cryptic enough to not commit to any specific course. I just had an idea that it could be this. Like Mordin says "Not positive, but theory fits evidence."

 

Apophenia seems to be a common problem around here.

 

I do tend to do that at times, so I could be guilty as charged~ :D I suppose time will tell.
 



#22
Wulfram

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Apophenia seems to be a common problem around here.


Well, there isn't really random data when you're dealing with an authored fictional world. Though there's perhaps a willingness to go for over elaborate explanations, rather than just going for the mundane - I think I heard somewhere that red hair is a Fereldan trait.

#23
helpthisguyplease

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Unless Andraste and/or her descendents concealed a lot of children (and from what i recall she had 2 daughters?) that scattered all over the world doubtful , assuming that her descendents survived in first place.   

 

After 1000 years it unlikely they did not scattered we are talking here of tens of thousands at the least. Its very unlikely they did not.



#24
Jaison1986

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I actually have this crazy theory that Morrigan is the last descedant of Andraste, as I believe Mythal was involved in the events of Andraste life, and it would explain why Mythal would take particular interest in Morrigan. Because she would be the last of her line. And as I believe, just as Mythal used Andraste mother as the subject for the dark ritual, she also used Morrigan.

 

Like I say, crazy theory, but I like it.



#25
Iakus

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I actually have this crazy theory that Morrigan is the last descedant of Andraste, as I believe Mythal was involved in the events of Andraste life, and it would explain why Mythal would take particular interest in Morrigan. Because she would be the last of her line. And as I believe, just as Mythal used Andraste mother as the subject for the dark ritual, she also used Morrigan.

 

Like I say, crazy theory, but I like it.

I admit watching Morrigan's head explode if she learned she was a descendant of Andraste would be rather lolworthy  :lol:

 

But I still hold that if such a descendant still exists and is traceable, it would be Leliana


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