120 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

Hawke: Met a god, got played.

Inquisitor: Met a god, got played.

Warden: Met two gods, murdered the hell out of both* of them.

*First one optionally.

Inquisitor killed Hakkon and a Titan's Guardian

[LOLandStuff]

Does that mean any ginger female protagonist is Andraste's descendant?

One of my mage Hawke is ginger, and there's a theory that Andraste was a powerful mage.

 

Makes sense, really.

[Former_Fiend]

Inquisitor killed Hakkon and a Titan's Guardian

 

It does work better without DLC.

[Sifr]

Hawke: Met a god, got played.

 

Inquisitor: Met a god, got played.

 

Warden: Met two gods, murdered the hell out of both* of them.

 

*First one optionally.

 

Hawke did manage to kill Corypheus (one of the Seven), Malvernis (whatever it was) and Xebenkeck (a Forbidden One), so I'd say it's worth some points. Then again, maybe not... since Corypheus was able to soul-surf into a nearby vessel and Solas tells us that even "dead" Spirits and Demons can reform given enough time and if the idea behind them is strong enough?

 

Come to think about it, that would also mean the Warden only gets one kill if you refused to do the Dark Ritual. Otherwise, Urthemiel survives the death of the Archdemon by passing into Kieran and Flemeth just uses the pendant soul-jar to reconstitute herself.

 

Even the Inquisitor doesn't kill Hakkon so much as free it to allows it to be reborn again.

 

And now this makes me slightly worried about Imshael and the other Forbidden Ones each of our protagonists have faced (Hawke with Xebenkeck, Inquisitor with Imshael and the Warden with Gaxkang) might end up reconstituting themselves at some point down the road, even if it does take a couple centuries...?

 

 

(And now I've just ruined all our epic moments... drat?!)

[Sir Zdanius]

Unless you're chatting with Solas, Flemeth, Dumat, etc...

 

The thing is, in Thedas, if someone claims to have spoken to a "god", it's entirely possible they're telling the truth.  From a certain point of view 

Exactly. Can't let out half a fart in Thedas without someone stopping to worship you.

[straykat]

Does that mean any ginger female protagonist is Andraste's descendant?

One of my mage Hawke is ginger, and there's a theory that Andraste was a powerful mage.

 

Makes sense, really.

 

No, the other gingers don't have souls. Sorry.

[CrysCat]

actually if you think about it, we never got the explanation of Leliana's incredible resistance to blight or whatever awful experiments they were doing to her in the future version of redcliffe castle quest, so there is that too.

[straykat]

we never got the explanation of Leliana's incredible resistance to blight

 

True. That's why I just rationalize her as and always spec her as archer (Ranger/Bard).

[Sifr]

actually if you think about it, we never got the explanation of Leliana's incredible resistance to blight or whatever awful experiments they were doing to her in the future version of redcliffe castle quest, so there is that too.

 

My own theory is that this Leliana developed some resistance due to her constant low-level exposure to it during the Fifth Blight.

 

It's doubtful that it would be anywhere near the degree that the Dwarves are supposed to be resistant to it, (which according to lore is due to over a thousand years of similar low-level exposure and their own natural hardy consitution), but it would make sense since Leliana is the prisoner in the Dark Future who has had the most exposure to and experience fighting Darkspawn.

 

(As for the rest of the party, we only know that Blackwall and Varric have fought them before for certain. The only ones we can confirm that Blackwall fought was during his recruitment by the real Blackwall, while Varric fought them in the still relatively clear post-Blight Deep Roads, in addition to those that made their way into the Vimmark prison.)

 

Or if you killed her in Origins, she's resistant because Leliana isn't really her, but some kind of Spirit of Faith impersonating her, Lyrium Ghost, or whatever it really was that Starbuck became at the end of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica?

 

[AkaFox]

One of the reasons I pick her as the Divine in DAI is because of this possible familial link between her and Andraste. I like to think it helps to cement the truth of her vision in DAO as well.

[Andromelek]

One of the reasons I pick her as the Divine in DAI is because of this possible familial link between her and Andraste. I like to think it helps to cement the truth of her vision in DAO as well.

The Guardian said such vision was a lie that Leliana invented.

[Iakus]

The Guardian said such vision was a lie that Leliana invented.

Actually, the Guardian accused Leliana of craving attention, of placing herself as the equal of Andraste.  Leliana vehemently claims her visions were real.  But in conversations both in DAO and DAI she said she felt she was special and destined for great things, which backs what the Guardian said.  But she neverbacked down from saying the visions were real.

 

Not that they are real, but she definitely believes them to be.

[straykat]

Actually, the Guardian accused Leliana of craving attention, of placing herself as the equal of Andraste.  Leliana vehemently claims her visions were real.  But in conversations both in DAO and DAI she said she felt she was special and destined for great things, which backs what the Guardian said.  But she neverbacked down from saying the visions were real.

 

Not that they are real, but she definitely believes them to be.

 

I don't see what's to lie about anyways. She had a dream of being swallowed up by darkness. There's nothing far fetched about that. If I was to "make up a dream", I'd be a little more dramatic. Her story is plain (especially for a bard). I think it's real, and she just interprets it a particular way. At worst, it's merely coincidental, and she mistook the darkness for the coming blight. Yet it was still a good motivator for things to come.

[Windwalker57]

Recap:

 

According to the Codex, both of Andraste's daughters had children, but the lineage of the eldest died out.  The younger, Vivial, and her husband (a Tevinter mage), went into hiding somewhere in northern Ferelden as Andraste and Maferath began the Exalted March, and she never saw her mother again.  The bloodline was known to have daughters as far as Andraste's great-grandchildren, but there the trail goes cold.  It was the opinion of the codex writer (a Chantry scholar) that the bloodline is exclusively female.  Might be true, might be a red herring, might be irrelevant and have no bearing on any plot.  The fact that they can't remember their mothers isn't really important; neither one is a direct descendant, after all.  Red hair is a fairly good clue, actually, if Andraste actually had it.  Red hair is a very rare genetic trait.

 

I also have wondered about the descendant theory, but only for Leliana.  Aveline doesn't have prophetic dreams, and if you kill Leliana during the Ashes quest, she is revived miraculously.  Yes, that's a BioWare handwave for making sure she's in the game, but still...

[ModernAcademic]

The Guardian said such vision was a lie that Leliana invented.

 

 

Actually, the Guardian accused Leliana of craving attention, of placing herself as the equal of Andraste.  Leliana vehemently claims her visions were real.  But in conversations both in DAO and DAI she said she felt she was special and destined for great things, which backs what the Guardian said.  But she neverbacked down from saying the visions were real.

 

Not that they are real, but she definitely believes them to be.

 

 

I don't see what's to lie about anyways. She had a dream of being swallowed up by darkness. There's nothing far fetched about that. If I was to "make up a dream", I'd be a little more dramatic. Her story is plain (especially for a bard). I think it's real, and she just interprets it a particular way. At worst, it's merely coincidental, and she mistook the darkness for the coming blight. Yet it was still a good motivator for things to come.

 

Leliana lost everything after being betrayed. She enjoyed being a bard because Marjolaine was training her to be a skilled player at the Game. She felt as though her actions had a significant impact in Orlesian politics and she enjoyed watching the effects of her deeds. It increased her sense of self importance.

 

She was young, ambitious and remained so even as she was rescued by Mother Dorothea. She didn't become a humble Chantry sister. This was just a cover up, so she could survive in the religious environment, where ambition and greed were viewed as wrong, while a humble spirit and innocence were considered virtuous. Desperate for not having such attributes, she faked them. And feeling she was going to disappear in that cloistered life - because the life of a sister is that of eternal servitude, both to the Maker and his people. A person doesn't join the Chantry seeking personal recognition -, she began to claim the Maker spoke to her and gave her a holy assignment. 

 

This is what the Guardian criticized. Leliana is not a humble, innocent girl. She's ambitious, competitive while pretending to be harmless and sweet. I bet she readily jumped to serve as Divine Justinia's Left Hand when the woman made her the offer.

 

If the Chantry changed anything in her, it's that it made her lose a bit of her selfishness and made her realise the suffering in the world, but only because she suffered herself. So Marjolaine's betrayal made her learn to be more compassionate toward other people's pain. Which is why, if unhardened, she rebuilds the Chantry and turns it into an altruistic, inclusive institution, open to all the peoples of Thedas.

 

 

Of course, all of the above is just my opinion, though.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Hear, hear.

 

I would vastly prefer if characters were just allowed to be themselves, no matter how mundane or ordinary they may be, instead of everyone now needing to be a ultra extra special snowflake descended from Andraste, or yet another elvhen divinity in disguise, or the fifth cousin twice removed of Koslun himself, or super secretly carrying dragon blood from the hidden lineage of Dumat, etc etc.

 

You know, these characters are already cool for who they are. Everyone doesn't need to be super blessed and divine and special to be interesting.

 

Precisely. The revelation that Solas is the Dread Wolf worked because it was unique and unexpected. Having every second character be the heir to some ancient lineage or possess some unique bloodline or be a god in disguise just waters it down. A character doesn't need to be an ancient spirit in disguise or what have you to be interesting.

 

Apophenia seems to be a common problem around here.

 

That, and the tendency to wholly overestimate Bioware's capability for effective, long-term storytelling. Mage-Templar War, anyone?

 

Hawke: Met a god, got played.

 

Inquisitor: Met a god, got played.

 

Warden: Met two gods, murdered the hell out of both* of them.

 

*First one optionally.

 

Right on. Don't forget the Warden conceivably fathering a god too.

 

I don't see what's to lie about anyways. She had a dream of being swallowed up by darkness. There's nothing far fetched about that. If I was to "make up a dream", I'd be a little more dramatic. Her story is plain (especially for a bard). I think it's real, and she just interprets it a particular way. At worst, it's merely coincidental, and she mistook the darkness for the coming blight. Yet it was still a good motivator for things to come.

 

Very true. Besides, what does it matter if Leliana lied or not? She still fought to end the Blight and served the Warden faithfully, all the while repeatedly risking her life in doing so. Maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer someone who does good for selfish reasons over someone who is honest about not giving a damn,

[Ghost Gal]

Just because they're devout doesn't mean they're her descendants.

[Heimdall]

Just because they're devout doesn't mean they're her descendants.

Aveline isn't even devout.

There doesn't seem much reason to suspect them unless we're going to assume all redheaded women are descended from Andraste. Since there are redheaded men, she obviously isn't the only source of red hair.

[Master Warder Z_]

Which is why, if unhardened, she rebuilds the Chantry and turns it into an altruistic, inclusive institution, open to all the peoples of Thedas.

 

You seen the new Hellsing Abridged?
 

My opinion mirrors that of Maxwell.

 

Never thought I'd be playing advocate for the Catholic church being a Orthodox man myself but...times are what they are.

 

The Chantry was open enough as it was, the heathens, heretics and etc aren't worthy of salvation, the Qunari are monsters to be destroyed same as darkspawn, the dwarves and elves already have place. She overturns centuries of tradition, and teachings because of whim, risking schism and revolt because she thinks she can bloody change the damn world. and in her other incarnation I'd be surprised if she isn't assassinated inside of a decade.(I hope she'd be anyway)

 

Seriously, the Chantry needs to overthrow that lady and replace her immediately because she's wrong, her opinions are wrong and she's not intelligent enough to run a bakery little lone a religious order of millions.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You seen the new Hellsing Abridged?

My opinion mirrors that of Maxwell.

Never thought I'd be playing advocate for the Catholic church being a Orthodox man myself but...times are what they are.

The Chantry was open enough as it was, the heathens, heretics and etc aren't worthy of salvation, the Qunari are monsters to be destroyed same as darkspawn, the dwarves and elves already have place. She overturns centuries of tradition, and teachings because of whim, risking schism and revolt because she thinks she can bloody change the damn world. and in her other incarnation I'd be surprised if she isn't assassinated inside of a decade.(I hope she'd be anyway)

Seriously, the Chantry needs to overthrow that lady and replace her immediately because she's wrong, her opinions are wrong and she's not intelligent enough to run a bakery little lone a religious order of millions.

Watching ignorant racists rant is quite funny

[MisterJB]

"ignorant racist" is not an argument, it's an insult.

 

Warder Z has valid points even if he could be more contained in how he expresses them.

 

For instance, unilaterally deciding to overturn thousand year old tenets such as the celibacy of clerics in the Chantry which existed due to them being, in theory, spiritually married to the Maker would be bad enough since it's clearly evidence of a despotic rule. To base this decision entirely upon whether the Warden is there to have sex with Leliana or not defies description.

It is certainly evidence of self aggrandizing and placing her own gratifications above the actual Chantry as an institution of faith.

 

Just imagine if tomorrow the Pope, without even a discussion, announced the priesthood, at all levels, could marry and then appeared in public with his lover. The backlash from clerics all over the world could very well make the Church implode.

[Xilizhra]

Warder Z has valid points even if he could be more contained in how he expresses them.

Not really.

 

 

For instance, unilaterally deciding to overturn thousand year old tenets such as the celibacy of clerics in the Chantry which existed due to them being, in theory, spiritually married to the Maker would be bad enough since it's clearly evidence of a despotic rule.

Citation needed on that being a thousand years old (the Chantry itself isn't a thousand years old). A citation on "spiritually married to the Maker," given that the celibate marriages Sebastian can participate in are a thing (not to mention the extreme unlikelihood that brothers would be married to the Maker anyway), would be nice too.

 

 

To base this decision entirely upon whether the Warden is there to have sex with Leliana or not defies description.

Citation needed on that being the entirety of the basis of the decision.

 

 

Just imagine if tomorrow the Pope, without even a discussion, announced the priesthood, at all levels, could marry and then appeared in public with his lover. The backlash from clerics all over the world could very well make the Church implode.

Well, remember that for the analogy to work, the Pope would A. have been a layperson elected for heroic service to the Church after virtually all of the cardinals were killed in a nuclear explosion, B. have played a major role in saving Europe from the reign of wizard zombie Hitler, and C. not have authority over anyone outside Europe anyway. Also, the Church would be a bit under a thousand years younger than it is IRL.

[thesuperdarkone2]

"ignorant racist" is not an argument, it's an insult.

 

Warder Z has valid points even if he could be more contained in how he expresses them.

 

For instance, unilaterally deciding to overturn thousand year old tenets such as the celibacy of clerics in the Chantry which existed due to them being, in theory, spiritually married to the Maker would be bad enough since it's clearly evidence of a despotic rule. To base this decision entirely upon whether the Warden is there to have sex with Leliana or not defies description.

It is certainly evidence of self aggrandizing and placing her own gratifications above the actual Chantry as an institution of faith.

 

Just imagine if tomorrow the Pope, without even a discussion, announced the priesthood, at all levels, could marry and then appeared in public with his lover. The backlash from clerics all over the world could very well make the Church implode.

Except you know, the people support that destruction of the celibacy rule. Funny how you left that one out.

 

 

Also, Trespasser has caused me to not give a damn what other people say. The Chantry is rotten to the core and I don't give a damn what Leliana does to bring her reforms to root. If some bigots get mad, I don't particularly care. If they are dumb enough to actually try attacking, the Inquisition will happily be sure to end their idiotic existence. 

 

Leliana is the Divine that Thedas needs if you actually give a damn about fixing any of the prejudices that Thedas has.

 

Also, yes, Warder is acting like an ignorant racist with comments like those about elves only being suitable as essentially a slave race or how every qunari should be killed regardless of whether they are tal-vashoth or not. Seriously, it's like saying every arab is a ISIS supporter and should be placed in an internment camp. To be honest, I think Warder would honestly support that.

[MisterJB]

Citation needed on that being a thousand years old (the Chantry itself isn't a thousand years old).

The Chantry actually existed before the position of Divine did. which was created by Emperor Drakon.

But sure, if you want to count from the coronation of the First Divine, that is still over 950 and years. Such a big difference, whooo.

 

Tell you what, you find me evidence that celibacy is not a practice that has been in vigor since the First Divine.

 

A citation on "spiritually married to the Maker," given that the celibate marriages Sebastian can participate in are a thing (not to mention the extreme unlikelihood that brothers would be married to the Maker anyway), would be nice too.

http://dragonage.wik...eliana/Dialogue

For two years you had no contact with anyone but men and women who... who are promised to some uncaring god?

 

http://dragonage.wik..._note-dgaider-0
According to the Chant of Light, Andraste had a spiritual marriage with the Maker. All Andrastian priests are therefore symbolically wedded to the Maker and sworn to celibacy.

 

 

Citation needed on that being the entirety of the basis of the decision.

It only exists in a save where the Warden romanced Leliana and survived ergo, it is based on it.

 

Or are you implying that Leliana actually gave this "reform" some thought in other universes but then the lack of the Warden's loins prevented her from going ahead with it?

Because that does nothing to change the fact that what determines whether she makes an unilateral decision for her whole faith that goes against its very tenets is whether she is getting laid or not.

 

Well, remember that for the analogy to work, the Pope would A. have been a layperson elected for heroic service to the Church after virtually all of the cardinals were killed in a nuclear explosion, B. have played a major role in saving Europe from the reign of wizard zombie Hitler, and C. not have authority over anyone outside Europe anyway. Also, the Church would be a bit under a thousand years younger than it is IRL.

The Grand Clerics didn't sit around a table and thought to themselves "Oh, this girl is really heroic. Maybe she could be Divine.", it was an entirely political decision centered around her status as the former Left Hand of the Divine and the actions of the Inquisitor himself.

Being the spymaster, her job description entails not being the hero in the spotlight. Do you somehow believe that the people like or even know of Leliana unless she becomes Divine?

 

What exactly are you trying to argue? That the people of Thedas receive the daily news of what Leliana did to defeat Corypheus and if she decides to overthrow traditions "a bit under a thousand years" old, they will think "ok, so this goes against everyt tradition that my forefathers lived under but you know, she sent saboteurs to the Arbor Wilds so, let's just accept this."

[MisterJB]

Also, Trespasser has caused me to not give a damn what other people say. The Chantry is rotten to the core and I don't give a damn what Leliana does to bring her reforms to root. If some bigots get mad, I don't particularly care. If they are dumb enough to actually try attacking, the Inquisition will happily be sure to end their idiotic existence. 

 

Leliana is the Divine that Thedas needs if you actually give a damn about fixing any of the prejudices that Thedas has.

 

Also, yes, Warder is acting like an ignorant racist with comments like those about elves only being suitable as essentially a slave race or how every qunari should be killed regardless of whether they are tal-vashoth or not. Seriously, it's like saying every arab is a ISIS supporter and should be placed in an internment camp. To be honest, I think Warder would honestly support that.

You basically just said:

 

"Yes, you're right but I don't care. I don't like the Chantry anyway.

 

Also, Warder is racist."

 

We're clear on this, right? I mean, if that is your opinion, that is your opinion but at least let's recognize that you are applying a double standard here.
You so vitriously accuse Vivienne of perverting the Chantry to serve her purpose and maybe she does. But then you are 100% behind Leliana making unilateral decisions that go against the Chantry's tenets to serve her own purposes. One of which is getting laid.

 

 

Except you know, the people support that destruction of the celibacy rule. Funny how you left that one out.

 

I have two things to say to this:

 

1-Saying "the people support" is an exageration. The only evidence of such a claim would come from Leliana herself; which can easily be simply wishful thinking on her part; and the epilogue which says "many in the Chantry came to accept".

"Many in the Chantry" is not "the people". It is not even "most of the Chantry,

 

2-Since when did popular opinion matter to you, mate? If I said "people support the Circle", you would accept the Circle then?

We both know you wouldn't.