120 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The Chantry actually existed before the position of Divine did. which was created by Emperor Drakon.

But sure, if you want to count from the coronation of the First Divine, that is still over 950 and years. Such a big difference, whooo.

 

Tell you what, you find me evidence that celibacy is not a practice that has been in vigor since the First Divine.

Well... no, as a matter of fact, I'm not going to prove a negative. You made the positive claim.

 

 

http://dragonage.wik...eliana/Dialogue

For two years you had no contact with anyone but men and women who... who are promised to some uncaring god?

 

http://dragonage.wik..._note-dgaider-0
According to the Chant of Light, Andraste had a spiritual marriage with the Maker. All Andrastian priests are therefore symbolically wedded to the Maker and sworn to celibacy.

For the first line, assuming that "promised" refers to marriage is saying that the Chantry's men are engaged in a gay marriage to the Maker, which seems less probable than them just being generically sworn to the Maker's service. For the second line, Gaider said nothing of the sort in the original cited source. The entire idea is nonsensical anyway, given that Andraste herself also had an earthly marriage (with sex and babies).

 

 

It only exists in a save where the Warden romanced Leliana and survived ergo, it is based on it.

 

Or are you implying that Leliana actually gave this "reform" some thought in other universes but then the lack of the Warden's loins prevented her from going ahead with it?

Because that does nothing to change the fact that what determines whether she makes an unilateral decision for her whole faith that goes against its very tenets is whether she is getting laid or not.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Leliana removing the celibacy requirement isn't pertinent to the story unless the Hero of Ferelden is involved, but if you wish to break this impasse, I'd be happy to ask Sheryl Chee about it.

 

 

The Grand Clerics didn't sit around a table and thought to themselves "Oh, this girl is really heroic. Maybe she could be Divine.", it was an entirely political decision centered around her status as the former Left Hand of the Divine and the actions of the Inquisitor himself.

Being the spymaster, her job description entails not being the hero in the spotlight. Do you somehow believe that the people like or even know of Leliana unless she becomes Divine?

 

What exactly are you trying to argue? That the people of Thedas receive the daily news of what Leliana did to defeat Corypheus and if she decides to overthrow traditions "a bit under a thousand years" old, they will think "ok, so this goes against everyt tradition that my forefathers lived under but you know, she sent saboteurs to the Arbor Wilds so, let's just accept this."

One thing I don't believe is that the people of Thedas give two shits about clerical marriage rules. Do you know how little that sort of thing mattered to the common folk in the Middle Ages (not to mention that clerical celibacy is relatively recent anyway)? The only people it would matter to are others of the clergy.

[MisterJB]

Well... no, as a matter of fact, I'm not going to prove a negative. You made the positive claim.

Well, let's see we have absolutely no indication whatsoever that the celibacy rule was introduced anywhere between the First Divine and Victoria therefore we have no reason to believe it was anymore than we have reason to believe that fire became an important symbol of the faith only after many centuries.

 

If you wish to prove otherwise, go ahead.

 

 

For the first line, assuming that "promised" refers to marriage is saying that the Chantry's men are engaged in a gay marriage to the Maker, which seems less probable than them just being generically sworn to the Maker's service. For the second line, Gaider said nothing of the sort in the original cited source. The entire idea is nonsensical anyway, given that Andraste herself also had an earthly marriage (with sex and babies).

1-Promised to someone and you can't have sex with other people. Yeah, that does not sound like a marriage at all.

 

2-Brothers are promised to Andraste, not the Maker.

 

"I knelt and swore before the Maker that I would take no bride but Andraste."

 

3-Being "generically sworn to the Maker's service" still requires one to be celibate. Leliana declares that it doesn't. Therefore, she is breaking the Chantry's tenets.

 

4-Andraste was betrayed by her earthly husband. It makes perfect sense for the Chantry to attempt to prevent the clergy from making the same mistake.

 

 

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Leliana removing the celibacy requirement isn't pertinent to the story unless the Hero of Ferelden is involved, but if you wish to break this impasse, I'd be happy to ask Sheryl Chee about it.

 

This does not happen "after the fact". This happens only if the fact exists. Ergo, there is no fallacyjust as there is no impasse. You yourself even acknowledge that this particular reform only become pertinent if Leliana is herself enganging in a romantic relationship. Therefore, Leliana changes tenets in order to get laid.

 

 

One thing I don't believe is that the people of Thedas give two shits about clerical marriage rules. Do you know how little that sort of thing mattered to the common folk in the Middle Ages (not to mention that clerical celibacy is relatively recent anyway)? The only people it would matter to are others of the clergy.

Oh yeah, divergences in religious teachings neved ended up with people being burned alive in the Middle Ages.

Just ask the Catharians. Oh wait...

[Master Warder Z_]

._. I never thought the Chantry would need to lead a exalted march upon itself.

That said: having the scripture defaced to suit vanity is just plain heretical.

[Xilizhra]

Well, let's see we have absolutely no indication whatsoever that the celibacy rule was introduced anywhere between the First Divine and Victoria therefore we have no reason to believe it was anymore than we have reason to believe that fire became an important symbol of the faith only after many centuries.

 

If you wish to prove otherwise, go ahead.

We have no indication of when it was introduced at all, and have no reason to believe that it was introduced at any time in particular. Including your "thousand year" assertion. Also, we do have proof that fire was an important symbol early on: http://dragonage.wik...y_of_the_Circle mentions the eternal flame as a symbol in the Divine Age.

 

 

1-Promised to someone and you can't have sex with other people. Yeah, that does not sound like a marriage at all.

So, Catholic priests are married to Jesus?

 

 

2-Brothers are promised to Andraste, not the Maker.

"I knelt and swore before the Maker that I would take no bride but Andraste."

And yet, he does anyway. Which is apparently fine by the Chantry? So either Sebastian is telling a very strange lie, or the entire system is absurd, as a chaste marriage wouldn't actually help any hypothetical jealousy issues as mentioned in point 4.

 

 

3-Being "generically sworn to the Maker's service" still requires one to be celibate. Leliana declares that it doesn't. Therefore, she is breaking the Chantry's tenets.

She's changing them. Which we already knew.

 

 

4-Andraste was betrayed by her earthly husband. It makes perfect sense for the Chantry to attempt to prevent the clergy from making the same mistake.

It's the only possible excuse for this, and it still doesn't make much sense, see point 2.

 

 

This does not happen "after the fact". This happens only if the fact exists. Ergo, there is no fallacyjust as there is no impasse. You yourself even acknowledge that this particular reform only become pertinent if Leliana is herself enganging in a romantic relationship. Therefore, Leliana changes tenets in order to get laid.

It only becomes pertinent there; we don't know if it only happens there.

 

 

Oh yeah, divergences in religious teachings neved ended up with people being burned alive in the Middle Ages.

Just ask the Catharians. Oh wait...

At the behest of the Pope and the clergy, not the laypeople. We already know how Leliana deals with attempts at clerical insurrection.

[ModernAcademic]

Jesus, people. It's a video game. All options for Divine are valid. And none are valid.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I just love how people criticize Leliana for not being celibate yet nobody has said a peep about Divine Vivienne breaking that whole "magic must serve man and never to rule over him" line, plus Divine Vivienne stated to be a tyrant who abuses the Chant for her own benefit.

 

 

Apparently Divine Leliana is the only one who can be criticized here. Don't you just love hypocrisy?

[MisterJB]

I just love how people criticize Leliana for not being celibate yet nobody has said a peep about Divine Vivienne breaking that whole "magic must serve man and never to rule over him" line, plus Divine Vivienne stated to be a tyrant who abuses the Chant for her own benefit.

 

 

Apparently Divine Leliana is the only one who can be criticized here. Don't you just love hypocrisy?

 

Leliana abuses the Chant to get laid. You said you support her. And yet you constantly repeat "Vivienne abuses the Chant for her benefit."

 

Who is being an hypocrite? Seriously man, self awareness.
 

[Xilizhra]

Leliana abuses the Chant to get laid. You said you support her. And yet you constantly repeat "Vivienne abuses the Chant for her benefit."

 

Who is being an hypocrite? Seriously man, self awareness.
 

Citation needed on the Chant requiring celibacy.

[MisterJB]

We have no indication of when it was introduced at all, and have no reason to believe that it was introduced at any time in particular. Including your "thousand year" assertion. Also, we do have proof that fire was an important symbol early on: http://dragonage.wik...y_of_the_Circle mentions the eternal flame as a symbol in the Divine Age.

Therefore we must assume it always existed unless given reason to believe otherwise. We know that Teodosia II was actually removed from her position for breaking her vows meaning it is, at the very least, centuries old and important enough to remove people who are supposed to serve for life.

 

 

So, Catholic priests are married to Jesus?

Jesus is the Son of God.

 

Andraste was the bride of the Maker. Not only are the two theologies entirely different, so are the history behind them.

 

 

And yet, he does anyway. Which is apparently fine by the Chantry? So either Sebastian is telling a very strange lie, or the entire system is absurd, as a chaste marriage wouldn't actually help any hypothetical jealousy issues as mentioned in point 4.

It's the only possible excuse for this, and it still doesn't make much sense, see point 2.

It has to do with Sebastian being a man and a noble. He was sent to the Chantry specifically to avoid the issue of heritage, if he is actually married and has heirs, it defeats the whole purpose. If, on the other hand, the marriage is chaste, who cares if a Brother in one Chantry has a marriage?

 

Historically, clerics were forbidden from marrying exactly to try and prevent this sort manipulation of temporal power. It didn't always work, of course. The Borgias being a good example.

 

 

It only becomes pertinent there; we don't know if it only happens there.

 

1-It's enough of a big deal that it would be mentioned in every playthrough if it was always part of her "reforms".

 

2-Everytime this issue is mentioned, the disapproval she was receiving due to appearing side by side with the Warden is the reason she feels the nee to justify her actions. Ergo, he is the reason; if he is not there, she has no reason.

 

 

She's changing them. Which we already knew.

At the behest of the Pope and the clergy, not the laypeople. We already know how Leliana deals with attempts at clerical insurrection.

 

And THAT is the whole point and problem.

 

Leliana is making unilateral decisions that chang tenets that have existed for centuries based upon nothing but her own vision or even her libido and she slits the throat of or discredits anyone who disagrees.

This is the behavior of a despot, far more interested in self aggrandizing than in the faith she is supposed to represent.

 

If anyone else was having this precise behavior but arguing for things you disagreed with, they would be worst than Satan.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana abuses the Chant to get laid. You said you support her. And yet you constantly repeat "Vivienne abuses the Chant for her benefit."

 

Who is being an hypocrite? Seriously man, self awareness.
 

I never criticized Vivienne for that, I said it's hypocritical to criticize Leliana for doing something that Vivienne also does. Learn to read or is that too difficult for you?

 

Also, at least Leliana's "selfishness" is shared with the rest of the Chantry while what Vivienne is doing would likely only help herself. I'll take the selfishness that helps everyone else as opposed to the selfishness that helps only one person.

 

Considering your blatant hypocrisy before, you should take your own advice Mr. "every mage should go to the Circle except my family".

[MisterJB]

Citation needed on the Chant requiring celibacy.

 

Abusing the Chant does not mean going against it. In fact, one can use the words of the Chant to go against Chantry tenets which would be abusing the Chant.

And that is exactly what Leliana does. She picks the parts of the Faith that she likes and keeps them and the ones that she doesn't, she throws away. Naturally, this is not the behavior of one of the faithful but in truth, Leliana's story has always been about how her beliefs differ from those of the Chantry.

 

This was evident in DAO when the Warden can actually say that he prefers her beliefs to those of the Chantry, when Leliana says that her beliefs were frowned upon by the other members of Lothering's Chantry and when the Guardian points out sheis going against Andraste's teachings.

 

And then it is also evident in DAI when the Inquisitor can say that the Chantry Leliana remembers is very different from the Chantry they know and Leliana does not deny this. She simply says "But it could be that way, couldn't it?"

 

So, when Leliana breaks the tenets of the Chantry by not beint celibate, she quotes the Chant and thus abuses it to justify her cupidity.

[MisterJB]

I never criticized Vivienne for that, I said it's hypocritical to criticize Leliana for doing something that Vivienne also does. Learn to read or is that too difficult for you?

 

Also, at least Leliana's "selfishness" is shared with the rest of the Chantry while what Vivienne is doing would likely only help herself. I'll take the selfishness that helps everyone else as opposed to the selfishness that helps only one person.

 

Considering your blatant hypocrisy before, you should take your own advice Mr. "every mage should go to the Circle except my family".

 

My good and honest friend, your second paragraph is criticism heaped upon Vivienne. Again, I urge you to work on some self awareness.

I mean, I don't try to quote everytime you criticized Vivienne and quoted Cassandra's "abusing the Chant for her own benefits" because we would be here all night.

 

 

 

Considering your blatant hypocrisy before, you should take your own advice Mr. "every mage should go to the Circle except my family".

My brother in all but blood, you are making two mistakes here.

 

The first one is to assume that Morrigan and Kieran are of the same importance as the other mages. They are not, in fact, they are not of the same importance as Thedas. They stand very much above the rest of the world.

 

The second one is to think that I care. You see, mein freund, I am aware of my hipocrasy regarding Morrigan and Kieran.

I just don't care.

 

See, like I said, self awareness is a wonderful thing.

[Xilizhra]

Therefore we must assume it always existed unless given reason to believe otherwise. We know that Teodosia II was actually removed from her position for breaking her vows meaning it is, at the very least, centuries old and important enough to remove people who are supposed to serve for life.

No, we mustn't. That'd be like assuming that, well, Catholic celibacy was part of the church from the beginning, which it decidedly was not.

 

 

Jesus is the Son of God.

 

Andraste was the bride of the Maker. Not only are the two theologies entirely different, so are the history behind them.

My point being that there are ways of being sworn to someone that aren't marriage.

 

 

It has to do with Sebastian being a man and a noble. He was sent to the Chantry specifically to avoid the issue of heritage, if he is actually married and has heirs, it defeats the whole purpose. If, on the other hand, the marriage is chaste, who cares if a Brother in one Chantry has a marriage?

 

Historically, clerics were forbidden from marrying exactly to try and prevent this sort manipulation of temporal power. It didn't always work, of course. The Borgias being a good example.

If he's in the clergy, he's not eligible for inheritance anyway, so it doesn't matter, does it?

 

 

And THAT is the whole point and problem.

 

Leliana is making unilateral decisions that chang tenets that have existed for centuries based upon nothing but her own vision or even her libido and she slits the throat of or discredits anyone who disagrees.

This is the behavior of a despot, far more interested in self aggrandizing than in the faith she is supposed to represent.

I like how you tried to spin actual diplomacy into something negative with "discredits." I also like how you seem to believe that merely existing for a long time makes an idea more inherently correct.

 

 

If anyone else was having this precise behavior but arguing for things you disagreed with, they would be worst than Satan.

I have no idea what this is supposed to prove. Am I to put the Inquisition's spies and the Venatori on the same moral plane because they use similar tactics?

 

 

Abusing the Chant does not mean going against it. In fact, one can use the words of the Chant to go against Chantry tenets which would be abusing the Chant.

And that is exactly what Leliana does. She picks the parts of the Faith that she likes and keeps them and the ones that she doesn't, she throws away. Naturally, this is not the behavior of one of the faithful but in truth, Leliana's story has always been about how her beliefs differ from those of the Chantry.

 

This was evident in DAO when the Warden can actually say that he prefers her beliefs to those of the Chantry, when Leliana says that her beliefs were frowned upon by the other members of Lothering's Chantry and when the Guardian points out sheis going against Andraste's teachings.

 

And then it is also evident in DAI when the Inquisitor can say that the Chantry Leliana remembers is very different from the Chantry they know and Leliana does not deny this. She simply says "But it could be that way, couldn't it?"

 

So, when Leliana breaks the tenets of the Chantry by not beint celibate, she quotes the Chant and thus abuses it to justify her cupidity.

Aside from the fact that virtually every faithful person in the history of the world picks and chooses which parts of the faith to emphasize, and deals with tenets that contradict each other, Leliana's hardly lacking in faith; she's just not completely orthodox. Which is hardly a strike against her, unless you're in love with the status quo for its own sake.

[jlb524]

Leliana abuses the Chant to get laid. You said you support her. And yet you constantly repeat "Vivienne abuses the Chant for her benefit."

Who is being an hypocrite? Seriously man, self awareness.

She can still get laid without changing the rule.

Wait, you probably believe every Divine in history followed that rule.

[Xilizhra]

She can still get laid without changing the rule.

Wait, you probably believe every Divine in history followed that rule.

Going by Leliana's Song, Justinia certainly didn't.

[thesuperdarkone2]

She can still get laid without changing the rule.

Wait, you probably believe every Divine in history followed that rule.

Apparently the Divine is only wrong when it's Leliana. Guess that Divine who had a knight-vigilant lover or the Divine who gave birth while walking up the stairs of the grand cathedral.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Here's another fun fact:

 

In WOT, you can find the New Cumberland Revision of the Chant of Light which also includes the Canticle of Shartan AND Silence and was published in 9:38 by Justinia.

 

 

Looks like reform isn't strictly with Leliana 

[Shechinah]

Apparently the Divine is only wrong when it's Leliana. Guess that Divine who had a knight-vigilant lover or the Divine who gave birth while walking up the stairs of the grand cathedral.

 

Theodosia II was removed from her position as Divine for breaking her vow of chastity.

 

The other example you mentioned I could not find the name or an account of. Do you remember her name?
 

[jlb524]

Theodosia II was removed from her position as Divine for breaking her vow of chastity.

Because she got caught. Getting pregnant will do that.

"No, no, 'this the Maker's child! I'm still a virgin, honest!"

[Shechinah]

Going by Leliana's Song, Justinia certainly didn't.

 

"Leliana's Song" was before Divine Justinia V as she was a Revered Mother known as Mother Dorothea during this time and it was Divine Beatrix III who held the position of Divine.
 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Theodosia II was removed from her position as Divine for breaking her vow of chastity.

 

The other example you mentioned I could not find the name or an account of. Do you remember her name?
 

It was Divine Amara III.

[Shechinah]

It was Divine Amara III.

 

Thank you.

 

"Amara III: Elected in 5:71 Exalted. Died in 5:85 Exalted. A sister of Emperor Alphone Valmont, Amara III's electrion was controversial because of her close connection to the Emperor, and the fact that she never even attained the rank of Revered Mother. She was known as a tyrant and a sadist who enjoye bonfires fueled by the bodies of the maleficarum. She eventually died under suspecious circumstances, leading her brother to commission a witch hunt to find her killer, to no avail." - Divine (Dragon Age Wikipedia)

 

I could not, however, find anything in regards to her supposedly breaking a vow of chastity. Does the information stem from one of the World of Thedas books?
 

[Xilizhra]

"Leliana's Song" was before Divine Justinia V as she was a Revered Mother known as Mother Dorothea during this time and it was Divine Beatrix III who held the position of Divine.
 

Oh, I know. But Dorothea was still a priest and still banged Marjolaine.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Thank you.

 

"Amara III: Elected in 5:71 Exalted. Died in 5:85 Exalted. A sister of Emperor Alphone Valmont, Amara III's electrion was controversial because of her close connection to the Emperor, and the fact that she never even attained the rank of Revered Mother. She was known as a tyrant and a sadist who enjoye bonfires fueled by the bodies of the maleficarum. She eventually died under suspecious circumstances, leading her brother to commission a witch hunt to find her killer, to no avail." - Divine (Dragon Age Wikipedia)

 

I could not, however, find anything in regards to her supposedly breaking a vow of chastity. Does the information stem from one of the World of Thedas books?
 

It's stated on the Armor of the Knights-Divine looted from Sandy Howler that one of the Knights-Divine was her lover.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because she got caught. Getting pregnant will do that.

"No, no, 'this the Maker's child! I'm still a virgin, honest!"

 

I'd have had her beheaded. To have a body that is supposed to solely beholden to the Maker defaced and defiled?

 

._.

 

I'm not joking, that is just a mockery of everything the Chantry has to say on the priesthood.