120 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

Oh, I know. But Dorothea was still a priest and still banged Marjolaine.

 

Arguably not an example of it working out seeing as Marjorie sucessfully seduced Mother Dorothea to steal important documents from her that could potentially start a new war between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

An excerpt from Leliana's Song in which Mother Dorothea shares dialogue with Leliana about it:

 

Mother Dorothea: "The papers Marjolaine sold to Commander Raleigh were mine. The papers used against you."

Leliana: "You did this? Those were Orlesian military! It is treason!"

Dorothea: "My temple recieves troop movements so we can minister in the field. They were stolen... in a moment of weakness. I didn't know why Marjolaine wanted to be so close to me. But it felt like... youth."

Leliana: "So this is your fault?"

Dorothea: "It would be more appropriate to say I share responsibility. As do you. When someone takes advantage of your weakness, it is still your weakness"

[Shechinah]

It's stated on the Armor of the Knights-Divine looted from Sandy Howler that one of the Knights-Divine was her lover.

 

Ah, thank you once again.

 

"Within the Templar Order are the Knights-Divine, those templars who serve the Divine directly, both as her personal guard as well as the enforcers of her will. Usually these men and women prefer to fade into the background, their positions granted as rewards for service. At least one Knight-Divine, Ser Nolan Brisson, was notorious in the late Exalted Age for being both the lover and the alleged puppet master of Divine Amara III" - The description of Armor of the Knights-Divine (Dragon Age Wikipedia)
 

[Xilizhra]

Arguably not an example of it working out seeing as Marjorie sucessfully seduced Mother Dorothea to steal important documents from her that could potentially start a new war between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

An excerpt from Leliana's Song in which Mother Dorothea shares dialogue with Leliana about it:

 

Mother Dorothea: "The papers Marjolaine sold to Commander Raleigh were mine. The papers used against you."

Leliana: "You did this? Those were Orlesian military! It is treason!"

Dorothea: "My temple recieves troop movements so we can minister in the field. They were stolen... in a moment of weakness. I didn't know why Marjolaine wanted to be so close to me. But it felt like... youth."

Leliana: "So this is your fault?"

Dorothea: "It would be more appropriate to say I share responsibility. As do you. When someone takes advantage of your weakness, it is still your weakness"

Obviously it didn't work out, but it still happened, and was hardly prevented by any celibacy vows.

[jlb524]

Apparently the Divine is only wrong when it's Leliana.

Well yeah...it's okay for the Warden to ****** all over the cornerstone of Chantry beliefs by taking part in a blood magic sex ritual with an apostate in order to produce a powerful Mage child with the soul/power of an Old God so they could 'get laid' (also fun to mention that this Old God soul ultimately ends up in possession of an elven 'god' hellbent on destroying the world, but the Warden doesn't know that at the time.)

Leliana, who changes one dumb rule instead of breaking it like others have, is the real villian here.

People who love their rules tend to love breaking the rules when it suits them even more.

[Master Warder Z_]

Leliana, who changes one dumb rule instead of breaking it like others have, is the real villian here.

 

Pretty much, selfish abuses of power are to be shunned.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Pretty much, selfish abuses of power are to be shunned.

Confirmed: Leli is the Donald Trump of Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

Confirmed: Leli is the Donald Trump of Thedas.

If we're going by standards that far, Vivienne is Hitler and Cassandra is Chief Wiggum.

[Master Warder Z_]

Confirmed: Leli is the Donald Trump of Thedas.

 

Pfft at least Trump inspires mildly amusing knock off parodies of him playing video games...just saying.

 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Pretty much, selfish abuses of power are to be shunned.

Is it really selfish when Leliana lets all the other priests have romantic relationships as well? Oh wait, since its Leliana, anything she does is wrong in your eyes?

 

Guess ignoring a rule is ok but trying to change it somehow makes Leliana the worst person in Thedas? Some people just find any excuse to hate on Divine Leliana

[MisterJB]

I also like how you seem to believe that merely existing for a long time makes an idea more inherently correct.

Time itself may not make an idea inherently correct but the norms, traditions, ideals, beliefs, tenets, practices, culture that have dictacted the behavior of millions of people for hundreds of years deserve more care, consideration, respect, deliberation, attention, argument, debate on both a theological and practical level than one singular woman deciding what and what not to change on a whim; especially when these decisions will risk the lives and freedoms of millions upon millions such as those involving the Circle; with her response to

 

 

 

move that divided Andrastians deeply. A rebellion to renounce her and return the Chantry to its former state arose, beginning first in Orlais, then spreading to other parts of Thedas.

 

being

 

 

 

she held up the hostility levelled against her as proof that she was on the right path.

 

So basically "I am right, everyone else in Thedas is wrong"

And that is when she is feeling merciful. Otherwise:

 

 

 

blood runs through the halls of the Grand Cathedral.

 

This is the behavior of a tyrant with enormous hubris.
 

[MisterJB]

She can still get laid without changing the rule.

Wait, you probably believe every Divine in history followed that rule.

 

Not at all. I may believe that the woman who becomes Divine; or Grand Cleric or Mother; should have more respect towards her position; hence why Cassandra is my chosen Divine even if that means the end of the Romance; but I do understand if they keep a lover on the side. People will be people.

 

However, there is quite a bit of difference between a Divine keeping a hidden lover and the heretic becoming Divine and using this position to change the extablished faith to suit her own beliefs.

 

And let us make no mistake, Leliana can be considered an heretic. Her beliefs are completely different from those of the Chantry and even of Andraste herself. One good example being her assertion that the Maker still watchs and cares about the world where Andraste taught that the Maker abandoned the world. Even the Guardian, who knew Andraste, will point this out.

 

Virtually every religion that has ever existed has given certain roles to certain genders based upon how this fit into the theology. Under Leliana, Andrastianism would become a banana republic where everyone can just be everything, whatever, don't care.

 

I do believe that is more grave than an hidden lover.
 

[MisterJB]

Because she got caught. Getting pregnant will do that.

"No, no, 'this the Maker's child! I'm still a virgin, honest!"

 

It's not even just getting pregnant but actually giving birth in front of the faithful.

 

That was probably hilarious to watch, at least.
 

[ModernAcademic]

Celibacy doesn't work. Priests and nuns end up having secret homosexual affairs when the option to engage with the opposite gender is unavailable. Often children are abused by elder priests.

Having a religious life shouldn't exclude bodily functions, such as sex. Human beings can't be deprived of basic functions. The right thing to do is for there to be norms regarding sex and romance. A Divine can have an affair, as long as she's discreet and doesn't show promiscuity (have more than one lover at a time).

[The Baconer]

"Banana republic"? Whaaaaaat. 

[Master Warder Z_]

"Banana republic"? Whaaaaaat. 

 

[Xilizhra]

Time itself may not make an idea inherently correct but the norms, traditions, ideals, beliefs, tenets, practices, culture that have dictacted the behavior of millions of people for hundreds of years deserve more care, consideration, respect, deliberation, attention, argument, debate on both a theological and practical level than one singular woman deciding what and what not to change on a whim; especially when these decisions will risk the lives and freedoms of millions upon millions such as those involving the Circle; with her response to

Since when did the amount of sex allowed to the clergy impact the lives of anyone beyond the clergy themselves?

 

 

So basically "I am right, everyone else in Thedas is wrong"

And that is when she is feeling merciful. Otherwise:

Aside from the fact that you think that an easily-talked-down bunch of angry southern clerics is "everyone else in Thedas," and aside from the fact that you apparently believe that politicians should only make decisions that no one dissents, this had nothing to do with her sex policy, by your own standards, since it happens regardless of whether the romance with the Hero of Ferelden brings that up or not.

 

 

However, there is quite a bit of difference between a Divine keeping a hidden lover and the heretic becoming Divine and using this position to change the extablished faith to suit her own beliefs.

One of them isn't hypocritical?

 

 

And let us make no mistake, Leliana can be considered an heretic. Her beliefs are completely different from those of the Chantry and even of Andraste herself. One good example being her assertion that the Maker still watchs and cares about the world where Andraste taught that the Maker abandoned the world. Even the Guardian, who knew Andraste, will point this out.

That's like saying the original Cole was a serial killer.

 

 

Virtually every religion that has ever existed has given certain roles to certain genders based upon how this fit into the theology. Under Leliana, Andrastianism would become a banana republic where everyone can just be everything, whatever, don't care.

Assuming that you meant "autocracy with a leader who has unpopular opinions," which is the only possible explanation I can see for "banana republic," you speak as though she wasn't popular enough to A. be elected, and B. remain in power with, if inspired, full support.

[The Baconer]

post

 

Yeah, pretty much. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Confirmed: Leli is the Donald Trump of Thedas.

She is more like this guy pretty much sums up her policies.

[Malthier]

Celibacy doesn't work. Priests and nuns end up having secret homosexual affairs when the option to engage with the opposite gender is unavailable. Often children are abused by elder priests.

Having a religious life shouldn't exclude bodily functions, such as sex. Human beings can't be deprived of basic functions. The right thing to do is for there to be norms regarding sex and romance. A Divine can have an affair, as long as she's discreet and doesn't show promiscuity (have more than one lover at a time).

 

yeah this thread just wouldn't have been complete without someone linking homosexuality and child molestation. 

[ModernAcademic]

yeah this thread just wouldn't have been complete without someone linking homosexuality and child molestation. 

 

What does homosexuality have to do with the abuse of children by priests? Don't force a purposeful misinterpretation of my words using prejudice against homosexuals as an excuse to start a futile online fight.

 

Go find someone else to fall for that idiotic provocation.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Those drakes in the Haven temple were descendants of Andraste.