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[The_Mac23]

I know he is definitely one of the most hated or loved character in the franchise. I like him a lot... I'm in Operations for my career and I understand how difficult it can be to make tough decisions. Loghain retreating at Ostagar was honestly brilliant and showed his knack for knowing war. His actions afterward were heinous, but in Inquisition, he's my favorite character.

What is his full backstory? I have ever read anything other than codex entries and such. But I'm very curious to how he and Maric became so close, despite him being a commoner. And also why he despised Cailan... Who did come across somewhat like a tool.

[Taki17]

It is detailed in The Stolen Throne novel. Short summary:

Loghain and his family were commoners, they had a land where they'd farm. During the orlesian occupation, the orlesians tried to overtax them, but they resisted. So the orlesian soldiers took their farm, and raped and killed Loghain's mother. In retribution, Loghain's father killed an orlesian officer and they had to flee. They banded together with other people and lived as outlaws.

 

When the rebel army was ambushed and the rebel queen (Maric's mother) was killed, Maric was forced to flee and he was rescued by Loghain's group. Loghain's father and the others distracted the orlesians and sent Loghain with Maric to protect him and escort him back to the rebels. Maric has given a noble title to Loghain's father, but he most likely died covering their escape, as he's never to be heard from again.

 

Loghain joined the rebel army, led an elite black ops unit made of elves and became Maric's close friend and most trusted advisor. The future queen Rowan (the mother of King Cailan) was betrohed to Maric from an early age, but she fell in love with Loghain and they began a romantic relationship when Maric was pursuing other women. Eventually, Loghain encouraged Rowan to marry Maric for the sake of Ferelden.

 

After the war, Loghain was given a teyrnir and became the leader of Ferelden's armed forces and continued to serve as Maric's advisor. When Maric disappeared during a sea voyage, Loghain spent years searching for him and blamed Orlais for sinking his ship.

 

In these background materials, Loghain is portrayed in a much more positive light, and in the knowledge of these things, it is much more understandable why he has become the person he is in Origins.

 

And Loghain's disapproval of Cailan is explained in the game, as the king wanted an alliance with the nation that had committed atrocities against Loghain.

[The_Mac23]

Nice, I like it. Wasn't sure if there was more disapproval besides the Orlesian history or not. I know Howe hated Cailan too, and was it verified that Cailan was having an affair on Anora?

[Vanalia]

Good summary. Loghain appears also in the book "The Calling" but I didn't read it yet. He is a complex and interesting character, and reading the books helps seeing the character under a new light. To understand better how and why he became who he is.

 

Loghain didn't "hate" Cailan, he was just thinking that he was not a good king and not very intelligent, always searching for glory because he spent his childhood hearing stories of .the adventures and victories of his father Maric (and Loghain). Loghain was strict with Cailan because he wanted him to be a good leader, or at least to be the King Maric was, but Cailan thought that Loghain was boring and was not listening to him.

 

Loghain of course was not happy about Cailan cheating on Anora, and even less happy to see Calan befriending the Orlesians Maric and him fought for years

[Taki17]

Loghain plays little role in the Calling, so don't expect any character developement there.

 

In letters found in Return to Ostagar it is hinted that Cailan was having an affair with Celene, though it is unknown if they really had romantic interest in eachother or it was only for political purposes. The letters confirm that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora (as she's rumored to be barren) and marry Celene in order to cement an alliance between Ferelden and Orlais.

[Illegitimus]

Loghain plays little role in the Calling, so don't expect any character developement there.

 

In letters found in Return to Ostagar it is hinted that Cailan was having an affair with Celene, though it is unknown if they really had romantic interest in eachother or it was only for political purposes. The letters confirm that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora (as she's rumored to be barren) and marry Celene in order to cement an alliance between Ferelden and Orlais.

 

That is an overstatement.  The letters indicate that possibility was on the table but are clear that they were still in negotiations.  There is no way to know whether Cailan was actually considering the idea, or was just avoiding saying "no" to the idea because he figured he needed or might need Celene's help against the blight.   

[Xetykins]

How could they be having an affair when they haven't even met? Political alliance does not mean only that they marry each other. It could be marrying Celene's line of succession with Cailan's. Anyway, those "flirting" letters does not at all coincide with Celene's portrayal in DAI. To start with, she seemed to be into women.

[Illegitimus]

How could they be having an affair when they haven't even met? Political alliance does not mean only that they marry each other. It could be marrying Celene's line of succession with Cailan's. Anyway, those "flirting" letters does not at all coincide with Celene's portrayal in DAI. To start with, she seemed to be into women.

 

She was into Briala.  That has no bearing on possible dynastic marriages.  

[The_Mac23]

So is he a good man or no prior to possibly becoming a Warden? Him as a Warden is a nastily amazing combination in my opinion.

[sylvanaerie]

So is he a good man or no prior to possibly becoming a Warden? Him as a Warden is a nastily amazing combination in my opinion.

 

He is like all men.  There is both good and evil in him.  

 

*Edit* It is up to the individual to decide if he is good or evil.  Certainly he does a lot of evil things when the Blight was overtaking Ferelden.  He clings to patriotism as his excuse, but do ends justify the means?  We all know how the road to hell is paved.  His pragmatism would certainly make him a good grey warden, but does that fit that a tyrant, even a well meaning one, is also a 'good man'? 

 

That is a question only you can answer for yourself.

[Illegitimus]

So is he a good man or no prior to possibly becoming a Warden? 

 

No, not really.  He's a man who is really slow to realize or admit that he was wrong about something, and that makes him a wrongheaded ruthless pragmatist.  So a natural fit for the Wardens who are filled with wrongheaded ruthless pragmatists.    

[DollyLlama]

This quote from outside the forums had me laughing.

 

 

Cailan had long blonde hair, and a hero complex, so yes, of course he had affairs.

 

Personally I thought Cailan was overly dandy. Sure, Maker save the King and all that junk, but he acted like quite the spoiled brat who had no choice but to become king. And being a king sounded super fab because people dote on you.

 

But Cailan a ruthless pragmatist? No. Loghain was more likely to be shrewd and pragmatic. Being pragmatic isn't bad, it's how you use it. Cailan honestly sounded like he wanted the glory without the hard work behind it.

[Xetykins]

Cailan honestly sounded like he wanted the glory without the hard work behind it.

That would be true if he did not go to the front line every battle at Ostagar and just looked pretty. Fact that he did and lived til that time we saw loghain decided not to follow through the with the plan. Cailan is still a naab for riding out without successor.

[Sifr]

How could they be having an affair when they haven't even met? Political alliance does not mean only that they marry each other. It could be marrying Celene's line of succession with Cailan's. Anyway, those "flirting" letters does not at all coincide with Celene's portrayal in DAI. To start with, she seemed to be into women.

 

At the start of The Masked Empire, Celene did actually give a moment's consideration to accepting Gaspard's proposal of a political marriage, as it would have been one way to prevent him leading the country into Civil War in his bid to take the throne from her.

 

While never stated, it's my suspicion that the only reason she decided against it was because Celene was savvy enough to know that Gaspard would never be happy just being the Consort and would likely arrange some "accident" to befall her to allow him to seize power in the event of her death.

 

That Celene is implied to be a lesbian probably factors far less into the equation, since political marriages to gain or maintain one's power are normal in medieval societies. As Dorian tells us, his own parents got married despite utterly loathing each other and he was expected to do the same, despite being gay, simply in order to continue the family line.

 

I doubt that Celene was having an actual affair with him, but I do reckon she was testing the waters to arrange a political union with Cailan, in the hopes that she could use her political savvy to unite their two countries peacefully. Rather than declare war, she merely had to declare, "I do".

[DollyLlama]

That would be true if he did not go to the front line every battle at Ostagar and just looked pretty. Fact that he did and lived til that time we saw loghain decided not to follow through the with the plan. Cailan is still a naab for riding out without successor.

Well, I guess making the effort to climb out of bed with his lovers from the comfort of his warm sheets would be hard work. Plus his hair did need to glisten in the sun and look like the golden mane of a fabulous lion. With the Wardens to take the fall, Loghain had an easy way out. Plus, Cailan did get himself killed. Loghain did say it was a bad idea. So we can't totally blame the guy.

 

Also, who said he had no successor? Loghain was the master of pulling out at the last second.

[Xetykins]

Well, I guess making the effort to climb out of bed with his lovers from the comfort of his warm sheets would be hard work. Plus his hair did need to glisten in the sun and look like the golden mane of a fabulous lion. With the Wardens to take the fall, Loghain had an easy way out. Plus, Cailan did get himself killed. Loghain did say it was a bad idea. So we can't totally blame the guy.
 
Also, who said he had no successor? Loghain was the master of pulling out at the last second.

Head cannon is a wonderful thing, innit?

[Xetykins]

At the start of The Masked Empire, Celene did actually give a moment's consideration to accepting Gaspard's proposal of a political marriage, as it would have been one way to prevent him leading the country into Civil War in his bid to take the throne from her.
 
While never stated, it's my suspicion that the only reason she decided against it was because Celene was savvy enough to know that Gaspard would never be happy just being the Consort and would likely arrange some "accident" to befall her to allow him to seize power in the event of her death.
 
That Celene is implied to be a lesbian probably factors far less into the equation, since political marriages to gain or maintain one's power are normal in medieval societies. As Dorian tells us, his own parents got married despite utterly loathing each other and he was expected to do the same, despite being gay, simply in order to continue the family line.
 
I doubt that Celene was having an actual affair with him, but I do reckon she was testing the waters to arrange a political union with Cailan, in the hopes that she could use her political savvy to unite their two countries peacefully. Rather than declare war, she merely had to declare, "I do".

I can understand her considering political union with Gaspard. It's after all for the benefit of her own country in a sense that she could avoid catastrophic civil war. But I still do not connect Celene with those apparently flirty messages to cailan. First, she does not seem to be the sort. She looks all like an ice queen in inquisition. 2nd she's clearly into Briala and in deep relationship with her during Origins. 3rd, I don't know how much time passes between Ostagar and start of the Masked Empire but I can't see her juggling Cailan and Gaspard at once.

[The_Mac23]

I don't blame Loghain one bit for not following through with the plan. The Wardens were late. Duncan and Cailan had no idea the Tower of Ishal was overrun. The Wardens did their best, but the battle was lost. Loghain saved countless lives by retreating, and as mentioned, he DID warn Cailan numerous times to not go on the front lines. "Your fascination with glory will be your undoing, Cailan."

[The_Mac23]

Cailan struck me as the know it all guy we all hate to work with. You can't tell him anything he doesn't already know, and he's too blinded by his own arrogance and pride to listen, despite the warnings from those with far more experience.

[Vanalia]

Cailan had lovers and was cheating on Anora, and not with Celene but with other lovers, I don't remember where we learn that but everyone seem to know he's not a faithful guy. And it seems that he was the one to be barren, because he got no bastards from all the lovers he had (and in medieval ages, there was no contraception)

 

I don't hate him, I just think that he is a fool (obsessed with glory, not listening to veteran's advices, wanting to be on the front line to be remembered in the tales and songs, risking a civil war - and it did happen - if he stupidly died, etc...)

[DollyLlama]

I don't blame Loghain one bit for not following through with the plan. The Wardens were late. Duncan and Cailan had no idea the Tower of Ishal was overrun. The Wardens did their best, but the battle was lost. Loghain saved countless lives by retreating, and as mentioned, he DID warn Cailan numerous times to not go on the front lines. "Your fascination with glory will be your undoing, Cailan."

I wouldn't say the Wardens were late. In the cutscene, as soon as Loghain saw the beacon, he actually sounded the retreat. Even his 2nd was like, "Wtf bro?" but went with it, 'cause orders.

[Vanalia]

I wouldn't say the Wardens were late. In the cutscene, as soon as Loghain saw the beacon, he actually sounded the retreat. Even his 2nd was like, "Wtf bro?" but went with it, 'cause orders.

 

And it was so illogical and so cliché. Like screaming "HEY LOOK, I AM THE ANTAGONIST HERE, PLEASE HATE ME"

 

"hey you had all these fights against darkspawn and spent 30 minutes in that tower for nothing, haha, I was just waiting for you to finish to make you mad by retreating for no reason just when you're finally up there. Oh, no, wait, it's because I'm the antagonist and Bioware wanted you soooo hard to hate me. Like if there were not so many reasons already, or just in case you player was too stupid to understand that I'm the bad guy here."

 

It was not subtle from Bioware, really. Just an old big cliché.

[sylvanaerie]

Cailan had lovers and was cheating on Anora, and not with Celene but with other lovers, I don't remember where we learn that but everyone seem to know he's not a faithful guy. And it seems that he was the one to be barren, because he got no bastards from all the lovers he had (and in medieval ages, there was no contraception)

 

I don't hate him, I just think that he is a fool (obsessed with glory, not listening to veteran's advices, wanting to be on the front line to be remembered in the tales and songs, risking a civil war - and it did happen - if he stupidly died, etc...)

 

Anora is the one who tells you Cailan was running around on her.  Not to say he wasn't, he wouldn't have been the first person to do so, won't be the last.  It's just we have only Anora's word for it, and I tend to take anything she says with a grain of salt.

I believe casting all the blame on Anora or Cailan for the problem is assuming a lot because technically there is no proof either way for either of them being fertile.  Anora doesn't have any children with the Cousland or Alistair either, though that could also be due to the diminished fertility caused by the taint.  I tend to think it was a combination of both of them having fertility issues, and it's as likely a reason as any.  Bioware's intention obviously is no ruler after this generation, possibly leading to some kind of power vacuum/struggle in a few years for a sequel down the road maybe.  

 

Wynne tells you there are means to prevent pregnancy they use in the Circle all the time, so there was some method of birth control available.  Either herbal or magical, in which case, Cailan may have practiced birth control with these alleged mistresses to prevent the problem of bastard children.

[DollyLlama]

And it was so illogical and so cliché. Like screaming "HEY LOOK, I AM THE ANTAGONIST HERE, PLEASE HATE ME"

 

"hey you had all these fights against darkspawn and spent 30 minutes in that tower for nothing, haha, I was just waiting for you to finish to make you mad by retreating for no reason just when you're finally up there. Oh, no, wait, it's because I'm the antagonist and Bioware wanted you soooo hard to hate me. Like if there were not so many reasons already, or just in case you player was too stupid to understand that I'm the bad guy here."

 

It was not subtle from Bioware, really. Just an old big cliché.

Actually, a lot of major plot points in dozens of stories is what you consider cliché. Perhaps that's the wrong word. It's just a very common story device. Someone's always going to betray someone else. But Is Loghain simply an antagonist? No, he wants what's good for his country, but takes it too far. Is Cailan the golden king? Not really. The real bad guy was Howe, who was nothing more than a power hungry nug-humper.

[The_Mac23]

Howe was trash, and the perfect example of what happens when a good man gets mixed up with someone who has a devil within himself.