Aller au contenu

Photo

What is Loghain's story?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
51 réponses à ce sujet

#26
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1 208 messages

I don't blame Loghain one bit for not following through with the plan. The Wardens were late. Duncan and Cailan had no idea the Tower of Ishal was overrun. The Wardens did their best, but the battle was lost. Loghain saved countless lives by retreating, and as mentioned, he DID warn Cailan numerous times to not go on the front lines. "Your fascination with glory will be your undoing, Cailan."

 

If Loghain knew the Wardens were too late then the ever-present question is "Why didn't he attack at the right time?".


  • Akrabra, moogie1963, Xetykins et 1 autre aiment ceci

#27
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
I think the plan itself wasn't working, and Loghain saw just that. Even the small cutscene where Cailan and Duncan die showed just how defeated the armies of Ferelden were. Not saying his intentions were 100% pure. But even before hearing Loghian sympathizers, it looked to me like the Ferelden armies were toast.

#28
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages

I think the plan itself wasn't working, and Loghain saw just that. Even the small cutscene where Cailan and Duncan die showed just how defeated the armies of Ferelden were. Not saying his intentions were 100% pure. But even before hearing Loghian sympathizers, it looked to me like the Ferelden armies were toast.


And you didn't also see that the reason why they were toast was because help that came with the plan did not come.

#29
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
The horde was a Blight. Even Cailan didn't fully believe that, despite Duncan's warnings. He went in way unprepared. Duncan even wanted him to wait for Eamon's forces. That battle was lost before it began. I think Loghain had an idea, hence why he kept telling Cailan not to play hero on the front lines.
  • Vanalia et DollyLlama aiment ceci

#30
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages
If that's the case, it won't have mattered if they wrap Cailan in a cotton wool and placed him right at the back of the very last line of soldier, he'll still be killed. There is absolutely no "wait for Eamon" on that battle. Prepared or not, they are coming.

A poster named Erine made a lovely post about it. If only I knew where to find it again.

#31
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
I'd definitely like to read it for sure! I guess the way the game is, I'm not sure why they HAD to fight at Ostagar. I know it was a defensive stronghold, and that part makes sense. But I recall the Return to Ostagar DLC where that guy who gives you the quest says that Cailan knew it was a lost cause.... Why the heck would they fight instead of gather full strength? Innocent people were going to die. There was no escaping that. And it was not worth the soldiers' lives to throw them into an impossible battle.

#32
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1 208 messages

I think the plan itself wasn't working, and Loghain saw just that. Even the small cutscene where Cailan and Duncan die showed just how defeated the armies of Ferelden were. Not saying his intentions were 100% pure. But even before hearing Loghian sympathizers, it looked to me like the Ferelden armies were toast.

 

How did Loghain see it?  He wasn't there.  And the cutscene where Cailan and Duncan die is a situation where half of the army never showed up for the fight allowing the other half to be defeated in detail so of course their morale was failing by that point.  At the point Loghain gave the order to leave he knew nothing that he didn't know when he concocted his "let's split up our forces and put me in charge in of the force that can just march away without fighting if I feel tired and just want to go home for some tea" plan.  



#33
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
Ok, then why go through the motions? He had his ways, subtle ways, of killing Cailan if he wanted to instead of disposing of half the army. I don't think a military man like Loghain would have set out for all those deaths at the start. He is much too smart for that. He needs that army to battle Orlais in his mind.

He must have observed it was a lost cause when the beacon was finally lit.

#34
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages

Ok, then why go through the motions? He had his ways, subtle ways, of killing Cailan if he wanted to instead of disposing of half the army. I don't think a military man like Loghain would have set out for all those deaths at the start. He is much too smart for that. He needs that army to battle Orlais in his mind.
He must have observed it was a lost cause when the beacon was finally lit.

Because he want the wardens to take the blame? Hence him hunting down the last 2 of thr greenest of the wardens, who by the way are Ferelden too. The ones he's trying to protect... apparently.

Dead men can't tell anyone your durty secret.
  • DollyLlama aime ceci

#35
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1 208 messages

Ok, then why go through the motions? He had his ways, subtle ways, of killing Cailan if he wanted to instead of disposing of half the army. I don't think a military man like Loghain would have set out for all those deaths at the start. He is much too smart for that. He needs that army to battle Orlais in his mind.

He must have observed it was a lost cause when the beacon was finally lit.

 

Loghain is not particularly well equipped to subtly kill people. When he tries to be subtle he does things like taking a bloodmage out of Templar custody, (and leaves the Templar alive to tell the tale) in order to personally ask the bloodmage to poison an important nobleman with a slow but untreatable poison.   But that's beside the point.  Obviously there was a point at which Loghain intended to go through with the plan as written.  And then there was a point at which it occurred to him like a stroke of genius, "All I have to do in order to not have to deal with Cailan again is...nothing.  I won't really be killing him.  I just won't be saving him, again, from his own folly.  By the void, it's own fault for putting himself where he shouldn't be and it does feel that like that signal came a bit late..."



#36
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
You think he would sacrifice soldiers for that? A crap ton of soldiers? Remember, Loghain feared Orlais and knew he needed soldiers in case they were to be attacked. Sacrificing elves in the alienage? Check. Sacrifice Grey Wardens? Check. Heck, even sacrificing an innocent civilian here or there? Check. But Ferelden soldiers? Doesn't fit him or his ambitions.

#37
Illegitimus

Illegitimus
  • Members
  • 1 208 messages

You think he would sacrifice soldiers for that? A crap ton of soldiers? Remember, Loghain feared Orlais and knew he needed soldiers in case they were to be attacked. Sacrificing elves in the alienage? Check. Sacrifice Grey Wardens? Check. Heck, even sacrificing an innocent civilian here or there? Check. But Ferelden soldiers? Doesn't fit him or his ambitions.

 

Given that he DID write off those soldiers, it's not much use asking whether he would.  There are unknowns in this equation.  We don't know how big the bait force was compared to the flanking force or how large either was compared to Loghain's best estimate of the number of darkspawn in the field.  We don't know how many casualties Loghain estimated the flanking force would take if he went through with the plan and it worked as initially intended.  We don't know who in the bait force, like the Wardens and Cailan, were people that Loghain mistrusted for their foreign ties and figured the nation would be stronger without.  It's possible that his best case scenario involved casualties that wouldn't have been that much less than losing the entire bait force.  (The difference being that victory would have inflicted much greater casualties on the enemy in the process and Caillan would have had a chance to survive.)



#38
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages

You think he would sacrifice soldiers for that? A crap ton of soldiers? Remember, Loghain feared Orlais and knew he needed soldiers in case they were to be attacked. Sacrificing elves in the alienage? Check. Sacrifice Grey Wardens? Check. Heck, even sacrificing an innocent civilian here or there? Check. But Ferelden soldiers? Doesn't fit him or his ambitions.


So convenient then that only his soldiers survived. He probably thought that he can replace those men by commandeering the rest of the banorn's men and land without a fight or via mercenaries. Not everyone went to war after all. Boy he's mistaken... again. Those men fought him off with passion, and the way they call Loghain's men "lackeys"and "dogs" makes me wonder why such hostility.

Seriously, he is not very smart. After his timely retreat at Ostagar, the poor man just fooked things up again and again. And he can't seem to control what's happening around him.

#39
The_Mac23

The_Mac23
  • Members
  • 125 messages
Never said he was a capable ruler. Neither was Cailan, nor most who donned the crown. Even our modern day presidents are loved by some, hated with a passion by others. Loghain becoming a Grey Warden was the perfect match; especially after seeing the truth behind the darkspawn threat. What better way to serve and protect Ferelden?

#40
DollyLlama

DollyLlama
  • Members
  • 305 messages

Howe was trash, and the perfect example of what happens when a good man gets mixed up with someone who has a devil within himself.

That's assuming Howe was a good man from the start. He was an opportunist. He'd always wanted Highever, and he used the Blight to steal it from someone he pretended to be friends with. If you take the time to thank Howe (or was it wish him well?) just before he butchers your noble character's family, he's completely caught off guard and basically says there's no need for that. I think he actually stutters.

 

If Loghain knew the Wardens were too late then the ever-present question is "Why didn't he attack at the right time?".

if the Wardens were too late, why did he wait on the beacon to be lit before sounding the retreat? He could have left by the time it felt like the wait was too long. I feel like he waited for the beacon on purpose to make a bold move, even if only the Wardens would have understood. At the same time, his retreat also saved his men, which helped him gain power.


  • paramitch aime ceci

#41
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages

Never said he was a capable ruler. Neither was Cailan, nor most who donned the crown. Even our modern day presidents are loved by some, hated with a passion by others. Loghain becoming a Grey Warden was the perfect match; especially after seeing the truth behind the darkspawn threat. What better way to serve and protect Ferelden?

After Ostagar he was not capable of anything, until my warden's sword was an inch away from his throat. While some spared him, it was too damned late for my warden.

But this is Loghain's story. Let's not derail it because he was an interesting character pre Origin

#42
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

Loghain is the Human Commoner turned Hero story the player never had. I guess the closest thing with him and Maric in the novels is the DAO City Elf with Alistair.

 

And his downfall in DAO. Which kind of carries further his Commoner roots. He believed in essentially good things -- that people can pick themselves up with their own will and with hard work... But in DAO, this became his curse. He refused to believe magic or legends (the Wardens) were needed for the job.

 

Anyways, I think it's only a great story when you put the whole arc together. It's a story of delusion and fallen heroes and how this setting treats anyone remotely non-magical or realistic. How it turns on them and makes all the things most people find admirable in our world into a joke. It even makes Monarchy look good (by pushing Alistair and listening to Eamon) while making the simple patriot who believes in meritocracy a bad thing. lol. With DAO standalone, Loghain can just be appreciated as a gruff "bad guy" that you kill and be done with. It's very black and white that way.



#43
Sifr

Sifr
  • Members
  • 6 725 messages

I can understand her considering political union with Gaspard. It's after all for the benefit of her own country in a sense that she could avoid catastrophic civil war. But I still do not connect Celene with those apparently flirty messages to cailan. First, she does not seem to be the sort. She looks all like an ice queen in inquisition. 2nd she's clearly into Briala and in deep relationship with her during Origins. 3rd, I don't know how much time passes between Ostagar and start of the Masked Empire but I can't see her juggling Cailan and Gaspard at once.

 

That Celene was able to convince one of Gaspard's soldiers to betray him with the promise of kinky sex, leading to said soldier being tied to her bed, stripped down to his frank and beans, then proceed to frankly spill the beans to her about Gaspard's plans...

 

Yeah, I would not put a flirty letter beyond Celene, if it would cement a political alliance between the two countries.

 

:lol:



#44
Vanalia

Vanalia
  • Members
  • 951 messages

That's assuming Howe was a good man from the start. 

I think he was meaning that the good man was Loghain, not Howe. I think he meant that Loghain had noble goals but was then influenced by "someone who has devil within himself" (Howe) and so, took bad decisions because of that.

 

I think Loghain had a noble goal, yes, but followed the wrong road to reach it.

 

It's up to each of us to decide to give him a second chance or not, depending on our point of view and how we see things (and depending on the story of our warden). I'm thanking Bioware for leaving us the choice to spare him, I think it's original and a nice opportunity to roleplay something different than the black & white traditional choices most players like to do at the Landsmeet.


  • sylvanaerie et DollyLlama aiment ceci

#45
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

With the game alone, yeah I think Howe appears to be a bigger influence. I think when you take his whole story into account, it's equally on Loghain's head... for the reasons I stated above. He's a man out of place and time... unfortunately this setting doesn't need heroes like him. It's high fantasy and needs unique snowflakes and magic to solve problems. While he's someone out of Joe Abercrombie novel. Or something (his stuff has magic too, but it's the first thing off the top of my head).



#46
DollyLlama

DollyLlama
  • Members
  • 305 messages

I think he was meaning that the good man was Loghain, not Howe. I think he meant that Loghain had noble goals but was then influenced by "someone who has devil within himself" (Howe) and so, took bad decisions because of that.

 

I think Loghain had a noble goal, yes, but followed the wrong road to reach it.

 

It's up to each of us to decide to give him a second chance or not, depending on our point of view and how we see things (and depending on the story of our warden). I'm thanking Bioware for leaving us the choice to spare him, I think it's original and a nice opportunity to roleplay something different than the black & white traditional choices most players like to do at the Landsmeet.

Ahhh, I was wondering about that. Howe practically had "Bite Me" written on his forehead. I would have let my Mabari do so, but something tells me that's worse than feeding a Mabari Blight meat.

 

Part of me wished we could talk Alistair into accepting Loghain, but without knowing Log's backstory, it wouldn't make any sense. He was blinded by hatred, not mind controlled by blood magic.But I feel like we do see Loghain can have sense talked into him over time.



#47
Ghost Gal

Ghost Gal
  • Members
  • 1 018 messages

The man who spends the whole game whining to anyone who'll listen about how he was "enslaved" and oppressed by Orlesians has no qualms about forcing his regency on the unwilling Ferelden populace and selling his own citizens into actual slavery to fund his regency. Nothing about his backstory will ever make me feel sorry for him or excuse him after that.

 

Part of me wished we could talk Alistair into accepting Loghain, but without knowing Log's backstory, it wouldn't make any sense. He was blinded by hatred, not mind controlled by blood magic.

 

Why would Alistair accept Loghain? He betrayed and killed closest thing to a family Alistair ever had, hunted him like an animal for months, and proved to care about his own power more than his own people. He willingly ignored the darkspawn in favor of fighting the nobles to force them to kneel at his feet, and kept ignoring everyone under the sun telling him the darkspawn was the true threat until it was almost too late.

 

"He was blinded by hatred" is not a valid excuse in my book since he almost got everyone killed for it. What's worse, he ignored everyone warning him that this wouldn't end well to do what he knew wasn't working. "Oh, he has a sad backstory" is no excuse in my book. So what? This is Thedas. Everyone has a sad backstory, but they don't all enslave, oppress, and willfully ignore advice they don't want to hear and get people killed for it.

 

But I feel like we do see Loghain can have sense talked into him over time.

 

What game have you been playing? Loghain spends the entire game shutting his eyes and ears to the reality of darkspawn and willfully ignoring the advice of everyone around him who tries to tell him the darkspawn are the real threat and he should put aside his Orlesian witch-hunting to deal with them first.

 

He ignores Duncan and the Grey Wardens (darkspawn experts) telling him it's a Blight because obviously he knows better. He ignores reports of the darkspawn flooding in from the Kocari Wilds because obviously the imaginary Chivalier army trying to cross in from Orlais is the bigger threat; post soldiers on that border instead of the southern border. (I'm sure the darkspawn horde will wait patiently for him to be done forcing the nobles into line and hunting every last imaginary "Chevalier" before raping, pillaging, and burning their way through the Ferelden countryside.)

 

He ignores his daughter Anora's political advice in favor of Howe's, even though she's been acting queen for five years and he is a minor noble who just butchered the most popular and powerful noble family in broad daylight. We see in cutscenes over the course of the year he ignores Anora warning him that they should deal with the darkspawn first (Anora: "Should we not be fighting the darkspawn instead of each other?" Loghain: "The nobles need to be brought to line, and then the darkspawn"), and ignores both Anora and Howe warning him that his forces are stretched too thin and that he can't fight the civil war and combat the darkspawn (and guard their Ferelden/Orlesian border, apparently) at the same time. (Howe: "We simply do not have the manpower..." Anora: "We need help, father!" Loghain: "Ferelden will stand on its own two feet!") Even right after Eamon calls a Landsmeet, if the Warden offers to join forces against the darkspawn instead of wasting more time fighting each other and dragging out this pointless civil war, Loghain rebukes you and insists on continuing to prolonge the civil war at the expense of dealing with the darkspawn.

 

Loghain is an idiot. It takes the Warden literally beating sense into him with a weapon (apparently the only logic Loghain can understand) for him to see reason, but by that point it's far too little too late. By that point the South had fallen to the darkspawn thanks to Loghain's idiocy and neglect, and it takes the combined forces of Loghain's/Howe's forces, the Bannorn's forces, Eamon's forces, and all the Grey Warden treaties to just barely save the North (and Denerim) from getting swallowed by the Blight. If Loghain had his way, he would have continued to ignore every warning under the sun (including Anora and Howe and the Bannorn trying to talk sense into him) and waited until Ferelden was swallowed by the Blight before even considering, "Maybe this wasn't the best course of action."

 

Loghain constantly ignores all attempts to talk sense into him time and time and time again over the entire game. He cannot be reasoned with, he cannot have sense talked into him. He can only be beaten martially, and since he hid behind his walls and armies most of the game the Warden can't get to him till nearly a year later, and by that point it was almost too late.

 

Loghain's an idiot. I think Alistair was right to reject him, as is any Warden who said, "No, I'm not getting my hands on that train wreck."


  • moogie1963, theskymoves et robertmarilyn aiment ceci

#48
straykat

straykat
  • Members
  • 9 196 messages

The man who spends the whole game whining to anyone who'll listen about how he was "enslaved" and oppressed by Orlesians has no qualms about forcing his regency on the unwilling Ferelden populace and selling his own citizens into actual slavery to fund his regency. Nothing about his backstory will ever make me feel sorry for him or excuse him after that.

 

I'd never say you should feel sorry for him, personally.

 

I only think he's interesting when we take the whole story into account.



#49
DollyLlama

DollyLlama
  • Members
  • 305 messages

*snip*

 

 

Why would Alistair accept Loghain? He betrayed and killed closest thing to a family Alistair ever had, hunted him like an animal for months, and proved to care about his own power more than his own people. He willingly ignored the darkspawn in favor of fighting the nobles to force them to kneel at his feet, and kept ignoring everyone under the sun telling him the darkspawn was the true threat until it was almost too late.

 

*snip*

Just how much of Origins did you play? Did you actually get passed the battle itself? Loghain didn't kill anyone. In fact, all he did was stand there with his troops until he watched the beacon catch fire. Then he turned around and left. Darkspawn killed King Cailan and hung him up Roman style. Duncan died while fighting an ogre. We never even see Loghain get any blood on him. Loghain put Fereldan politics as a top priority. His heart was in the right place as far as protecting his own, but he went about it the wrong way. He didn't become a general just by being born with the right blood. The man does have battle wisdom and is a legend in his own right.

 

Yes, he's still human with his faults. But to go on your whiny rant is ridiculous. He was smart enough not to Agincourt (aka medieval Leeroy Jenkins) the battle at Ostagar.

 

Also, the plot for Origins and Skyrim isn't too far off. Not only is the end of the world happening by an OP dragon creature, but there's a civil war going on. Both need petty politics taken care of before you go off and nearly get yourself killed. Provided you or Alistair bang the mage for the sake of the entire world, of course. It was her mom's idea.


  • Vanalia et straykat aiment ceci

#50
Xetykins

Xetykins
  • Members
  • 2 003 messages

Just how much of Origins did you play? Did you actually get passed the battle itself? Loghain didn't kill anyone.


If your own head cannon is the one absolute set in stone, people would not still be debating about it 6 years later.

Just saying it's all subject to interpretation. To insult someone because they did not get to your same conclusion ain't cool. I played Origins 18x and I still believed he abandoned Cailan. And his actions after that kind of cemented my own opinion on Ostagar. Like... declaring himself regeant over his queen daughter and last and certainly not least..."King Loggy" anyone?