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[Phoenix_Also_Rises]

 

I think this gets to the increasing issue with the DA series. To my limited gaming knowledge, this is the only game series which has no set number of games (publicly) stated and is dedicated to a new PC each game but have the story, characters, and world build upon previous installments. This seems fairly revolutionary to me in gaming. The problem with that is this introduces problems like you mention: the further into the series we go, the more lore we have and the greater narrative disadvantage new players will have. Old fans will expect continuity and references to their actions in past games. New players will not want to feel like they have to play previous games in order to understand what's going on (though I'm sure Bio would be happy if they bought past games for reference).

 

That's why it makes sense that we have to go to Tevinter for the next game and make as clean a break with the baggage and history from the first three games as possible. It's similar to how MEA had to flee our galaxy in order to feasibly implement the setting we know from the original trilogy without dealing with the Reapers.

 

You're right, it's the nature of the gaming industry (human nature, really) that someone will be upset no matter what Bio does. That's a given. I don't envy them their task of walking such a fine line. I acknowledge that they probably have to deal with these issues more than most game companies, so kudos to them for doing so.

 

For TW3, I should be fair and realize that I won't understand all of the references since it is the third game in a series, based off of a book series. It's ironic, though, as I watched youtube playthroughs of the first two games and never had any inclination to play them, but all of the hype and praise of TW3 convinced me to buy a used copy and try it out. And I am enjoying it.

 

What BioWare is doing with their games, in terms of save imports and choice reactivity in general, is something I have yet to see replicated anywhere else (obligatory TW3 reference - yes, I know this game does it too in a way, by means of asking you questions when Geralt is getting all prim and proper to meet Emhyr, but come on - we all know it is not the same thing). It is my understanding that the Ultima series did one continuous storyline that stretched across its installments, but it also functioned on the basis of a character "import" of sorts (those with better memory, feel free to correct me), and I also understand that it featured a linear story rather than one that was affected by player choice (again, corrections are welcome). Kingdoms of Amalur seemed to be going for something akin to what BioWare is doing in terms of player agency (though to a more limited extent), with the occasional moral choice coming up (e.g. what to you do with the Maid of Windermere, do you kill the Varani ambassador or do you tell her of the plot against her, do you tell everyone about the Big Secret Thing or not, thus possibly making Alyn want to hunt you down and shut you up or not) but sadly, we will never find out where that would have gone (I do love this poor, unfairly unlucky game way too much and everyone should play it because this franchise was taken from us WAY TOO SOON).

 

But as regards Dragon Age, in terms of rotating protagonists with only the world at large reacting to the choices - yeah, that is pretty damn unique. I too have wondered how much longer they can keep the snowball rolling. But it is clear there is a due date for it to end - intertwining storylines are a tricky, tricky thing, and the more strings you have, the easier it is to get entangled. I mean, there is only so far you can go before you need a flow chart, and there is only so far you can go until that flow chart is not enough. On the other hand, they do have that hefty bottleneck thing going on, so who knows? Perhaps it will allow them to avoid reaching Critical Flowchart Mass. Establishing a new protagonist, their background, their ties and links to the larger plot and the world would likely throw another ball of plot-yarn into the mix. The Inquisitor comes pre-packaged, is all - they already have an extensively - told origin story (which could ultimately please the "Bring Back Origins!" crowd - which I am not ashamed to say I am a member of), a pre-established motivation and a place in this world, and they are clueless enough about Tevinter and/or Qunari and/or the rest of Northern Thedas to be a believable outsider and thus accessible to new players as well.

 

But yeah - I do not envy the position of a BioWare dev - one of those who make decisions - listening to things people say about their work, about their choices, scrutinizing them from every angle. Or worse, hearing about these things from the media. Ugh. There is always somebody who gets angry or fundamentally disagrees. It is a crazy place to be.  

 

A side note - I am happy for you enjoying TW3 Funny thing - I pretty much did the same thing - watched LPs of the first two, got TW3 mostly to make my friends who kept nagging me about it shut up, but ended up having a ball. VERY ATTENTION TO DETAIL MUCH IMPRESS SO WOW.

 

I go feel bad now. Sorry. 

[vbibbi]

What BioWare is doing with their games, in terms of save imports and choice reactivity in general, is something I have yet to see replicated anywhere else (obligatory TW3 reference - yes, I know this game does it too in a way, by means of asking you questions when Geralt is getting all prim and proper to meet Emhyr, but come on - we all know it is not the same thing). It is my understanding that the Ultima series did one continuous storyline that stretched across its installments, but it also functioned on the basis of a character "import" of sorts (those with better memory, feel free to correct me), and I also understand that it featured a linear story rather than one that was affected by player choice (again, corrections are welcome). Kingdoms of Amalur seemed to be going for something akin to what BioWare is doing in terms of player agency (though to a more limited extent), with the occasional moral choice coming up (e.g. what to you do with the Maid of Windermere, do you kill the Varani ambassador or do you tell her of the plot against her, do you tell everyone about the Big Secret Thing or not, thus possibly making Alyn want to hunt you down and shut you up or not) but sadly, we will never find out where that would have gone (I do love this poor, unfairly unlucky game way too much and everyone should play it because this franchise was taken from us WAY TOO SOON).

 

But as regards Dragon Age, in terms of rotating protagonists with only the world at large reacting to the choices - yeah, that is pretty damn unique. I too have wondered how much longer they can keep the snowball rolling. But it is clear there is a due date for it to end - intertwining storylines are a tricky, tricky thing, and the more strings you have, the easier it is to get entangled. I mean, there is only so far you can go before you need a flow chart, and there is only so far you can go until that flow chart is not enough. On the other hand, they do have that hefty bottleneck thing going on, so who knows? Perhaps it will allow them to avoid reaching Critical Flowchart Mass. Establishing a new protagonist, their background, their ties and links to the larger plot and the world would likely throw another ball of plot-yarn into the mix. The Inquisitor comes pre-packaged, is all - they already have an extensively - told origin story (which could ultimately please the "Bring Back Origins!" crowd - which I am not ashamed to say I am a member of), a pre-established motivation and a place in this world, and they are clueless enough about Tevinter and/or Qunari and/or the rest of Northern Thedas to be a believable outsider and thus accessible to new players as well.

 

But yeah - I do not envy the position of a BioWare dev - one of those who make decisions - listening to things people say about their work, about their choices, scrutinizing them from every angle. Or worse, hearing about these things from the media. Ugh. There is always somebody who gets angry or fundamentally disagrees. It is a crazy place to be.  

 

A side note - I am happy for you enjoying TW3 Funny thing - I pretty much did the same thing - watched LPs of the first two, got TW3 mostly to make my friends who kept nagging me about it shut up, but ended up having a ball. VERY ATTENTION TO DETAIL MUCH IMPRESS SO WOW.

 

I go feel bad now. Sorry. 

Thanks yeah TW3 is fun. It's funny that it's compared so much to DAI, because there are enough differences about the types of games they are that most comparisons are irrelevant. Combat system is going to be different for a lone PC than to a party set up with three classes. Can't compare them in any great detail. The only strong comparisons (in terms of which was done better) would be side quest content.

 

I wonder how much of the one PC per game, multiple choices impacting future plots, siding with different factions, etc, was decided based on the idea that DAO might be a one off rather than a successful series. It all sounds good on paper, but when faced with potentially five games which need continuity, it becomes very difficult to develop games. Kind of like Gaider's regret that the DAO epilogues went so far in the future, as they now have to be retconned.

 

I really enjoy having choices carried over from game to game, but at the end of the day, those choices can't matter too much or else Bio would have to develop separate quest lines based on diverging choices. So it's ironic that people complain that DA2 is a railroaded plot, since the basic end game world state is going to have to be similar regardless of choices, or else you have people wanting the Warden back despite the option of the Ultimate Sacrifice.

 

Plus, it can be frustrating if we want to see how a character develops based on the PC's influence, only to have the NPC return the next game with a default personality regardless of our actions. It seems like TW3 might have some drastic ending branches for the characters, since they don't need to worry about making a next game. But Alistair and Leliana are the same people in DA2 & DAI regardless of how we completed their personal quests in DAO.

 

For the Inquisitor being an outsider to Tevinter and thus being a good starting point to introducing the environment, yes and no. Yes they are an outsider, but if I'm going to respect my IQ for deciding to work in the field in stopping Solas, I would expect them to have done some homework on the lands they'll be working in. It would be irresponsible and unprofessional for the IQ to go into Tevinter on whatever mission against Solas, and then ask all of the basic questions about Tevinter culture, the cold war with the Qunari, etc etc. Especially since they should have learned a lot of this through Dorian and after the events of Trespasser, they would want to know as much as they could about Qunari military and espionage strategy and how to counter it.

 

I enjoyed Kingdoms of Amalur, but honestly more for the scenery than the story. It felt like a proto-DAI, in that it seems like it was designed to be an MMO but then converted to a single player game, and the environments feel lifeless as a result. I really enjoyed the maps, including the DLC of the floating land, but I missed having any notable NPCs to interact with. It felt very lonely journeying around.

[fangs4fun]

I am actually looking forward to leaving Ferelden and Orlais.  Especially Orlais.  Eff Orlais their Game.  I do agree that I prefer fewer choices that is well realised than multiple choices that is not as well done like the final battle we had in DAI.

 

Bottomline is, if they have a good story to tell with the Inquisitor as the PC again, then I am fine with that. The main attraction of the DA games to me is the world I get to explore and the lore I get to discover. The amazing characters that they have created are just the bonus.

[Corades]

I am actually looking forward to leaving Ferelden and Orlais.  Especially Orlais.  Eff Orlais their Game.  I do agree that I prefer fewer choices that is well realised than multiple choices that is not as well done like the final battle we had in DAI.

 

Bottomline is, if they have a good story to tell with the Inquisitor as the PC again, then I am fine with that. The main attraction of the DA games to me is the world I get to explore and the lore I get to discover. The amazing characters that they have created are just the bonus.

 

 

I know what you mean... For me is the characters and the story. instead. Getting to know interesting companions and the intrigue of the plot. If I don't have that, the game seems pretty dull and empty, so I always tend to go for this kind of genre. The Inquisitor story ended in such an interesting way that I find it difficult to leave it be... 

[lushnight]

The dumb idea I have been quietly wishing for is an option to play as any of the surviving previous PCs.  So, if your Warden is dead, but you have a surviving Hawke, the main protagonist could be Hawke, the Inquisitor, or a completely new character.  It would be hard to pull off, but it could be done Origin style with the different start areas depending on the race & class you picked.  So, if you wanted to play as your Warden, the game would open with you doing whatever it is you are doing in the deep roads.  After a short time of following that arc (and hopefully tying up some dangling narrative ends from the previous games), there would be some major plot point that would tie all the starting stories together and at that point you would begin the game proper.  For easier implementation that plot point would probably have to be something similar to the Conclave, along the lines of "while you were off galavanting in the deep roads, Hawke and the Inquisitor were assassinated while meeting for coffee at a Starbucks, and now the most qualified person we can come up with to lead this campaign is you". 

 

Even if it meant all of my other PCs died, I would prefer that to a meaningless cameo, or even worse the conversion of PC to NPC that then makes choices that are completely contrary to the character I created.  Or worse yet, a war table style text entry, "Our agent reports that the Inquisitor approached Solas without fear and said some silly elven things in a loving voice, to which the Dread Egg responded, "b*tch, how many times do I have to nope the f*ck out of this relationship" and turned her to stone where she stood".  

 

 It would take a little more writing on Bioware's part, but not a ton; a recommit/break up scene with a previous LI, some different dialogue options depending on who died at Starbucks and other than that the same game with the same choices.  Especially considering we all know that the big bad is actually Mythal, not poor little compelled Solas, and can you imagine a more epic end game than a HoF PC confronting Mythal inhabiting a LI Morrigan?!?!

 

Well, I guess that's enough crazy for one post. 

[AEve]

 

 

If it would please a lot of player I don't see how it could work, just imagine the VA costs of all of it. AND complete differents scenario, differents lines, people complaining it's not their HOF anymore, that Hawke was screwed, that those romance scene was not as great as this other romance, just that nightmare.

And Mythal being the big bad ...?

 

Anyway, this is just the idea you dream of and my like goes to you :

 

 "while you were off galavanting in the deep roads, Hawke and the Inquisitor were assassinated while meeting for coffee at a Starbucks, and now the most qualified person we can come up with to lead this campaign is you".

 

Thanks for that, needed to laugh right now!

[Nefla]

Dear BioWare,

 

     Here are some ways to actually make your game about the world of Thedas instead of specific characters:

 

-Stop bringing characters back from one game to the next, especially companions.

-Stop setting up a conflict or villain in one game and continuing their story in the next.

-Don't give your previous protagonist a strong connection to the next conflict and then sideline them in favor of someone new.

-Make each game separate from each other, set in a different country and have each story self contained and relevant to that country. Show us that place's culture and people and problems like you did with Ferelden, the Circle of Magi, the Dalish, Orzammar, etc...in DA:O. In DA2 and DA:I we were shown hardly anything new about Thedas because the games focused on the characters and the conflict.

-Maybe take a page out of TES' book and make each game separated by a significant amount of time.

[Corades]

Dear BioWare,

 

     Here are some ways to actually make your game about the world of Thedas instead of specific characters:

 

-Stop bringing characters back from one game to the next, especially companions.

-Stop setting up a conflict or villain in one game and continuing their story in the next.

-Don't give your previous protagonist a strong connection to the next conflict and then sideline them in favor of someone new.

-Make each game separate from each other, set in a different country and have each story self contained and relevant to that country. Show us that place's culture and people and problems like you did with Ferelden, the Circle of Magi, the Dalish, Orzammar, etc...in DA:O. In DA2 and DA:I we were shown hardly anything new about Thedas because the games focused on the characters and the conflict.

-Maybe take a page out of TES' book and make each game separated by a significant amount of time.

 

Hahhahaha, no way, I hope you said that with sarcams xD 

 

If the dragon age saga were about the "World of Thedas" then we would have an Elder Scrolls, as you said. I don't want an Elder Scrolls. Even if the devs say that the game is about the world, I see way more character building and development than any of that, which is, in the end, what people are looking for in Bioware games. That's why Origins had so much success. Bioware excels at writing stories and characters, and I don't imagine their games without sweet moments getting to know them. I was dying of boredom in some areas of DAI, waiting for some exciting second mission to arise, to some interesting NPC to speak with... and instead I only spent time closing rifts and conquering fortresses that yes, were pretty and with difficult bosses, but ultimately I wondered what that had to do with the story, which is, again, what I look for in Bio games. The storylines you refer of to(circle of magi, orzammar, etc) were brilliant because they offered good characters and stories as well, that were also tied with your pc/companions. 

 

People, myself included, were amazed by Trespasser because it offered a powerful story without too many distractions (the secondary missions were up to you to do) without sacrificing open world scenarios and the freedom they offered. And suddenly our inky became interesting. 

 

Which is why I'm dying to play as my Lavellan again. 

[Riot Inducer]

So just finished my playthrough of the DLCs and got to the end of Trespasser and wow, that's a doozy. How do you proceed from there? Keep the inquisitor as the protagonist with a hopefully much more personal second arc to their story? Or start fresh in a new land with a new character again?

 

I can certainly see the arguments for both, although I do feel it would be a wasted opportunity of the Inquisitor's potential if there is a final confrontation with Solas in DA4 and the Inquisitor is reduced to a quest NPC similar to Hawke. Honestly I was fine with a new PC for the next DA game before Trespasser, the Inquisitor's story seemed done for what it was, they could easily have joined The Warden in codex legend and I wouldn't have batted an eye. Now though, it does feel like there's a larger story for the Inquisitor at work. We got the triumphant heroic first act with Corypheus, with Trespasser we've delved into the brutality of a darker second act, to just drop the protagonist at this stage seems...bizarre.

 

On the flip side though a lot seems to be trying to set up the idea that the personal connection to the antagonist is the very reason why we need a new protagonist. Which, I can see it for the intermediate story stuff (Qunari vs Tevinter, etc.). Alongside the amputee status and (conditional) statement of "My adventuring days may be behind me" do point to the Inquisitor taking a back seat in the next installment. (As a side note if the amputee thing is in fact used as a reason to "retire" the Inquisitor then it sends a rather shitty message about people with physical disabilities, so I hope that isn't the case and whatever form we see the Inquisitor in next they continue to kick ass with the best of em).

 

So, I would love the Inquisitor's story to continue if it has to take a backseat I can deal with it as long as what's established is treated respectfully. Which is to also say that if the Inquisitor isn't the PC for the next game I'll be a lot more cautious with my purchase of the game.