192 respuestas en este tema

[springacres]

Rivalry only works for me if I use a guide, otherwise I feel like I'm being unnecessarily anti-mage with Anders, or fascist with Isabela. Merrill is the only person I feel natural rivalling, but oh the vitriol she throws my way at the end of Act 2 - sheesh.

Or unnecessarily pro-slavery with Fenris.  (This is probably the biggest reason why I can't bring myself to rival him, even as a pro-mage mage Hawke.)

 

Merrill is the only person I've ever been able to bring myself to rival, tbh.  (Although if I could rival Anders without using the console, while still being pro-mage, I'd do it in a heartbeat.)

 

[Edit] I play sarcastic Hawke, and Merrill never threw vitriol my way... gonna have to see if I can manage an aggressive!Hawke playthrough now.

Editado por springacres, 09 abril 2016 - 07:36 .

[Catilina]

Or unnecessarily pro-slavery with Fenris.  (This is probably the biggest reason why I can't bring myself to rival him, even as a pro-mage mage Hawke.)

 

Merrill is the only person I've ever been able to bring myself to rival, tbh.  (Although if I could rival Anders without using the console, while still being pro-mage, I'd do it in a heartbeat.)

 

[Edit] I play sarcastic Hawke, and Merrill never threw vitriol my way... gonna have to see if I can manage an aggressive!Hawke playthrough now.

You do not need to be cruel to Fenris, when you choose the rival path. Not need be pro-slavery. Just every possible situation to pronounce how wrong to keep in jail the mages (first time at Gallows with Fenris +25 rivalry, speak with Cullen after the templar-save quest +10[? maybe]).

 

For 100% rivalry only necessary as described above, and defending Mages always(!), when Fenris scold them. For example, after the death of Hadriana and Danarius, you don't necessary tolerate to scold you, feel free to tell him where to put ...  It is not at all cruelity.

 

With rivalry path after Alone quest, in his Mansion Fenris don't complaints about the mages. (With friendsip path Fenris complaints still...)
 

[springacres]

You do not need to be cruel to Fenris, when you choose the rival path. Not need be pro-slavery. Just every possible situation to pronounce how wrong to keep in jail the mages (first time at Gallows with Fenris +25 rivalry, speak with Cullen after the templar-save quest +10[? maybe]).

 

For 100% rivalry only necessary as described above, and defending Mages always(!), when Fenris scold them. For example, after the death of Hadriana and Danarius, you don't necessary tolerate to scold you, feel free to tell him where to put ...  It is not at all cruelity.

 

With rivalry path after Alone quest, in his Mansion Fenris don't complaints about the mages. (With friendsip path Fenris complaints still...)
 

That still ends up feeling cruel, because I feel like by taking those steps I'm denying that he has every right to feel the way he does given his experience of the Tevinter magocracy.  (All of my Hawkes to date have been pro-mage, and none of them believe Tevinter offers any kind of a solution to the mage question either.)

 

I also take him to the Gallows in Act 1, usually right after recruiting him (which I do fairly early on), so I headcanon that at that point Hawke doesn't yet realize just how bad the Kirkwall Circle is.

[possumpanda]

the trick i found to play around the approval system in this game is to max it as fast as you can in a way that goes along with your hawke. After you manage this you can play the game the way you want, and that makes the game, at least in rping perspective, much more enjoyable.

 

[Edit]: just to add something to make my post more in-topic, I like rivalry with some of the companions more, like Anders and Fenris(Merril and Isabella too, but to a lesser extent), because i find their development more interesting in this path, by challenging their views you create a conflict with them, which leads to a discussion about the flaws in their and our ideas and adds drama to the relation, which makes things more spicy. 

 

That still ends up feeling cruel, because I feel like by taking those steps I'm denying that he has every right to feel the way he does given his experience of the Tevinter magocracy.  (All of my Hawkes to date have been pro-mage, and none of them believe Tevinter offers any kind of a solution to the mage question either.)

 

I also take him to the Gallows in Act 1, usually right after recruiting him (which I do fairly early on), so I headcanon that at that point Hawke doesn't yet realize just how bad the Kirkwall Circle is.

 

I'm pretty sure Hawke doesn't realize how bad the kirkwall circle is until act 3, since act 1 and 2 don't focus too much in the mage-templar problem.

Editado por possumpanda, 12 abril 2016 - 02:43 .

[Catilina]

That still ends up feeling cruel, because I feel like by taking those steps I'm denying that he has every right to feel the way he does given his experience of the Tevinter magocracy.  (All of my Hawkes to date have been pro-mage, and none of them believe Tevinter offers any kind of a solution to the mage question either.)

 

I also take him to the Gallows in Act 1, usually right after recruiting him (which I do fairly early on), so I headcanon that at that point Hawke doesn't yet realize just how bad the Kirkwall Circle is.

You can hear at the beginning of the game about, how fun the life in the Kirkwall Circle.

 

Thats cruel if someone does not like that in exchange for his help, get just scolding? I think not. All other responses are possible, velvety soft and kind.

 

(Otherwise I first thought that the rivalry romance are ruthless, but this is not true. The starting point is a less patient, hot headed Hawke. That does not yet make cruel/evil him. It was not easy to rival, was much more difficult than a friendship for me, precisely for the reason, what you were saying. I have only one rival-Fenris end – this is my last and favorite Hawke –, the rest are all 80-100% friendly.)

[GoldenGail3]

Yes. It's more believable then perhaps even Friendship is - because you test your companion's views with Rivalry, and that's grand that you can make Isabela a better person with Rivalry - that's pretty realistic to me, I suppose.

[springacres]

the trick i found to play around the approval system in this game is to max it as fast as you can in a way that goes along with your hawke. After you manage this you can play the game the way you want, and that makes the game, at least in rping perspective, much more enjoyable.

 

[Edit]: just to add something to make my post more in-topic, I like rivalry with some of the companions more, like Anders and Fenris(Merril and Isabella too, but to a lesser extent), because i find their development more interesting in this path, by challenging their views you create a conflict with them, which leads to a discussion about the flaws in their and our ideas and adds drama to the relation, which makes things more spicy. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure Hawke doesn't realize how bad the kirkwall circle is until act 3, since act 1 and 2 don't focus too much in the mage-templar problem.

By Act 2, Anders is aiding the Mage Underground, and Sir Alrik's dialogue during Anders' personal quest suggests he enjoys taking personal advantage of Tranquil mages.  So my Hawkes usually have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the Kirkwall Circle during act 2.

 

I'm with you on maxing out the Friendship/Rivalry as early as possible - I generally have it locked in by midway through act 2 if not earlier.

 

I guess rivaling him isn't necessarily cruel, it just feels kinder and more natural to me to try to establish a trusting, friendly relationship with him and go from there.  I feel like if he's exposed to a mage that is neither power-hungry, nor a borderline abomination, nor a blood mage, and who treats him like an equal whose opinions and experiences are worth listening to, he's more likely to start to see mages as individuals rather than as a group of people he needs to fear.

 

I think rivaling Anders or Isabela would feel more realistic, though.  I've seen some of Anders' rivalmance, and it does seem pretty believable.  He struggles more with not letting Justice take over, admits to blank spots in his memory, and generally seems more conflicted than he does on the Friendship path.  I think my main problem with rivaling Isabela is that I play so many flirty purple!Hawkes, but I do like the idea of trying to get her to acknowledge that being selfish all the time isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

I guess the bottom line is that while I like the idea of the Rivalry bond, I don't like how it ends up playing out in-game.  I think it would have worked better if it had been somehow used alongside the approval/disapproval mechanic of Origins rather than supplanting it, though I'm not sure how that would have worked.

[Iakus]

I actually tried to do that, but there's never an option to repair the mirror by other means, unfortunately. I wish there was an option to say, "Hey, Merrill, perhaps someone else might have studied these eluvians. Let's ask the Asha'bellanar or even the Circle what they might know."

There is no other option, no.

 

So basically it comes down to "Reclaiming elven heritage is all fine and good, but there are lines you simply should not cross" and it's better not to repair the eluvian at all rather than trust in a demon and blood magic to get it done.

[Catilina]

By Act 2, Anders is aiding the Mage Underground, and Sir Alrik's dialogue during Anders' personal quest suggests he enjoys taking personal advantage of Tranquil mages.  So my Hawkes usually have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the Kirkwall Circle during act 2.

 

I'm with you on maxing out the Friendship/Rivalry as early as possible - I generally have it locked in by midway through act 2 if not earlier.

 

I guess rivaling him isn't necessarily cruel, it just feels kinder and more natural to me to try to establish a trusting, friendly relationship with him and go from there.  I feel like if he's exposed to a mage that is neither power-hungry, nor a borderline abomination, nor a blood mage, and who treats him like an equal whose opinions and experiences are worth listening to, he's more likely to start to see mages as individuals rather than as a group of people he needs to fear.

 

I think rivaling Anders or Isabela would feel more realistic, though.  I've seen some of Anders' rivalmance, and it does seem pretty believable.  He struggles more with not letting Justice take over, admits to blank spots in his memory, and generally seems more conflicted than he does on the Friendship path.  I think my main problem with rivaling Isabela is that I play so many flirty purple!Hawkes, but I do like the idea of trying to get her to acknowledge that being selfish all the time isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

I guess the bottom line is that while I like the idea of the Rivalry bond, I don't like how it ends up playing out in-game.  I think it would have worked better if it had been somehow used alongside the approval/disapproval mechanic of Origins rather than supplanting it, though I'm not sure how that would have worked.

Anders rivalry romance more real than Fenris? I dont think so... Anders rivalry romance much more cruel. Anders' approval system based on his belief, and his belief life-and-death issue for him. Fenris' approval system based only on fear, and the fear is fleeting. Will Anders be able to live with a templar-minded people? Probably not. Fenris would be able to live with a pro-mage? Yes, as long as s/he is not pro-magister.

[Iakus]

By Act 2, Anders is aiding the Mage Underground, and Sir Alrik's dialogue during Anders' personal quest suggests he enjoys taking personal advantage of Tranquil mages.  So my Hawkes usually have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the Kirkwall Circle during act 2.

 

I'm with you on maxing out the Friendship/Rivalry as early as possible - I generally have it locked in by midway through act 2 if not earlier.

 

I guess rivaling him isn't necessarily cruel, it just feels kinder and more natural to me to try to establish a trusting, friendly relationship with him and go from there.  I feel like if he's exposed to a mage that is neither power-hungry, nor a borderline abomination, nor a blood mage, and who treats him like an equal whose opinions and experiences are worth listening to, he's more likely to start to see mages as individuals rather than as a group of people he needs to fear.

 

I think rivaling Anders or Isabela would feel more realistic, though.  I've seen some of Anders' rivalmance, and it does seem pretty believable.  He struggles more with not letting Justice take over, admits to blank spots in his memory, and generally seems more conflicted than he does on the Friendship path.  I think my main problem with rivaling Isabela is that I play so many flirty purple!Hawkes, but I do like the idea of trying to get her to acknowledge that being selfish all the time isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

I guess the bottom line is that while I like the idea of the Rivalry bond, I don't like how it ends up playing out in-game.  I think it would have worked better if it had been somehow used alongside the approval/disapproval mechanic of Origins rather than supplanting it, though I'm not sure how that would have worked.

As someone who has both friendshipped and rivaled Fenris, I can say that he always sees mages like Bethany and Hawke as exceptions rather than the rule.

 

I do enjoy rivaling Isabela, as it feels like she and Hawke end up friends almost by accident (kinda like how she ends up sort-of friends with Aveline).  She comes to see Hawke as somewhat inspiring to her, encouraging her to be a better person.

 

And yes, you can do this as purple-Hawke 

[springacres]

As someone who has both friendshipped and rivaled Fenris, I can say that he always sees mages like Bethany and Hawke as exceptions rather than the rule.

True, but I feel like the difference is that with rivalry, you're telling him (with words) that he's wrong.  Whereas his friendship path, for a mage!Hawke, feels to me like the PC actively trying to show him he's wrong.   It also feels like a healthier path for him, emotionally.  I've seen the cutscenes after A Bitter Pill and Alone, and on rivalry he talks about his hatred and bitterness being "a dark growth" and "like poison, yet I continue to swallow it."  As friends, he mentions that he "thought I'd gotten away from it" and that "if I seem bitter, it's not without cause."  It just feels to me like he's better able to move on with his life when he's friends with a pro-mage Hawke, somehow.  (Although they definitely wouldn't see eye-to eye on the issue of mage freedom.)

 

I do enjoy rivaling Isabela, as it feels like she and Hawke end up friends almost by accident (kinda like how she ends up sort-of friends with Aveline).  She comes to see Hawke as somewhat inspiring to her, encouraging her to be a better person.

 

And yes, you can do this as purple-Hawke 

Really?  Awesome, I'll have to try that sometime.  The Aveline/Isabela dynamic is one of my favorite background relationship dynamics in-game (along with Varric/Merrill and Sebastian/Fenris).

[Dean_the_Young]

For me, the biggest weakness in the Rivalry system is that Rivalry is used for both 'viewpoints I disagree with' and 'things I find bad.' Have a principled disagreement over the trustworthiness of random mages? Rivalry. Kick a kitten into starving orphans? Same thing.

 

To do the system justice, you'd either need to decouple the PC's ability to do truly reprehensible acts- like the Inquisitor in DAI- or add a second alignment bar.

 

Call it 'Regard.' Friendship/Rivalry is ideological, but regard is just if you're an ******* or not. It'd make for more writing- you'd have a quadrant system (friendship-regard, friendship-disregard, etc...), but you could make the distinction between 'person I like who agrees with me', 'person I don't like who disagrees with me', 'person who disagrees with me but I can respect,' and 'total arse.'

[possumpanda]

For me, the biggest weakness in the Rivalry system is that Rivalry is used for both 'viewpoints I disagree with' and 'things I find bad.' Have a principled disagreement over the trustworthiness of random mages? Rivalry. Kick a kitten into starving orphans? Same thing.

 

To do the system justice, you'd either need to decouple the PC's ability to do truly reprehensible acts- like the Inquisitor in DAI- or add a second alignment bar.

 

Call it 'Regard.' Friendship/Rivalry is ideological, but regard is just if you're an ******* or not. It'd make for more writing- you'd have a quadrant system (friendship-regard, friendship-disregard, etc...), but you could make the distinction between 'person I like who agrees with me', 'person I don't like who disagrees with me', 'person who disagrees with me but I can respect,' and 'total arse.'

 

a complex approval system would be great, but that's something i wouldn't expect from bioware. 

[SgtSteel91]

I don't like any of the Rivalry paths. I'd rather Hawke accepts his companions for who they are, and in cases like Anders, Merrill, and Fenris, become emotional pillars to them.

[straykat]

I don't like any of the Rivalry paths. I'd rather Hawke accepts his companions for who they are, and in cases like Anders, Merrill, and Fenris, become emotional pillars to them.

 

You can in Aveline's case. It's less about acceptance of Aveline (which both sides do) and more about Hawke. Aveline assumes much more noble qualities in Friendly Hawke. But assumes criminality on rivalry. So it's good for roleplaying, if you want to be the latter. But even the criminal loves having Aveline around. It's more whether Aveline accepts YOU instead.

[springacres]

For me, the biggest weakness in the Rivalry system is that Rivalry is used for both 'viewpoints I disagree with' and 'things I find bad.' Have a principled disagreement over the trustworthiness of random mages? Rivalry. Kick a kitten into starving orphans? Same thing.

 

To do the system justice, you'd either need to decouple the PC's ability to do truly reprehensible acts- like the Inquisitor in DAI- or add a second alignment bar.

 

Call it 'Regard.' Friendship/Rivalry is ideological, but regard is just if you're an ******* or not. It'd make for more writing- you'd have a quadrant system (friendship-regard, friendship-disregard, etc...), but you could make the distinction between 'person I like who agrees with me', 'person I don't like who disagrees with me', 'person who disagrees with me but I can respect,' and 'total arse.'

I was thinking something that involved mixing Approval/Disapproval with DA2's friendship/rivalry, but also with the quadrant system you described.  Regard seems a much better name for the overall system, using Friendship/Rivalry and Approval/Disapproval as the axes.

[straykat]

I don't think you can avoid revolving around those big issue disagreements in DA2. The characters all seem like representatives of certain points of view. And not mere characters. So the clashes I think would usually be on these high level things. I think that's just the way the story is constructed. I kind of feel like Hawke is our response and criticism to most of the big elements of the DA world. Even disagreeing with Isabela, who is down to earth and mundane, is more about disagreeing with her free spiritedness. Not just her. She represents the antithesis of the Qun. And the game demands we make a stand somewhere.

 

But I do like quadrants over binary systems. I even try to think of Mass Effect that way. Sometimes it mixes the idea of Order and Chaos with a Renegade/Paragon outlook, but I'd rather seperate those in my head. I might make morally "Paragon"/Good choices, but still be chaotic. Or, conversely, I might want to be Renegade, but don't like taking overtly Orderly options.. like telling Gabby and Ken down below to follow orders and be a hardass officer to them. You get Renegade points for that, but to me, it's more of an orderly thing.

[springacres]

Yeah, on my DA2 playthroughs I sort of mentally subdivide things into Friendship+Approval, Friendship+Disapproval, Rivalry+Approval and Rivalry+Disapproval.  So while my canon playthrough says I'm "Friends" with everyone except Merrill, I see myself as being more in the Rivalry/Approval quadrant with Fenris, Sebastian and to some extent Aveline - we disagree on some points, but we respect each other enough to value each other's opinions.  Varric and Isabela are cool, and Carver grew up once he was in the Wardens, so they're all more or less in the Friendship/Approval quadrant.  I like Anders and Merrill as people, but they make such boneheaded decisions... so they're in the Friendship/Disapproval quadrant.

 

And if we count relationships with NPCs... Gamlen's a douche, Meredith is power-mad, and Bartrand's an SOB (with apologies to his and Varric's mother.  Oh, and don't get me started on Hubert.  Rivalry/Disapproval for all of them.

[straykat]

Gamlen truly is my favorite uncle. Sarcastic Hawke isn't really being sarcastic.

[springacres]

Gamlen truly is my favorite uncle. Sarcastic Hawke isn't really being sarcastic.

He does have his uses, I'll give him that.  (He's also the only uncle Hawke has, that we know of anyway.)

 

But he's still the uncle who robbed his sister of her inheritance, then frittered it away, then took advantage of his family's plight to get some of his own debts paid off when said sister and children showed up in Kirkwall.  He's also a racist, homophobic SOB.

[Catilina]

Gamlen truly is my favorite uncle. Sarcastic Hawke isn't really being sarcastic.

Especially his "sweet little joke", if male Hawke love Fenris. Gamlen are really lovely uncle... In fact, such quite a lot happen irl too, so Uncle Gamlen undoubtedly authentic jerk.

[straykat]

He does have his uses, I'll give him that.  (He's also the only uncle Hawke has, that we know of anyway.)

 

But he's still the uncle who robbed his sister of her inheritance, then frittered it away, then took advantage of his family's plight to get some of his own debts paid off when said sister and children showed up in Kirkwall.  He's also a racist, homophobic SOB.

 

It's more that I like his place in the story. He's a good character.

 

But yeah, that's Hawke's only uncle. But also their favorite uncle.

[Catilina]

It's more that I like his place in the story. He's a good character.

 

But yeah, that's Hawke's only uncle. But also their favorite uncle.

Undoubtedly authentic, so he is a good character. But I love? No. The problem with the joke besides the homophobia ofc: that was a terrible sucks joke! Old, cheap... Yes: just as uncle Gamlen...

[straykat]

I never saw that joke. Is it when you do the quest for Charade?

 

Then again, I've never done same sex romance either.

[Catilina]

I never saw that joke. Is it when you do the quest for Charade?

 

Then again, I've never done same sex romance either.

Then you may don't know that "joke", nevermind, do not lose anything with this ...