192 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

lol... I always saw Hawke as Che Guevara. Pablo Escobar.. not so much.

 

Or at least, the male one.

 

I see my female Hawke as the daughter Flemeth wished she had.

 

Nah, Hawke's not a rebel. Just look at his crew.

 

Corrupt police officer who looks the other way and even is participates in crimes? Professional blackmailer with working ties with the underworld? Emo assassin? Eccentric mad scientist into forbidden research? Corrupt and occasionally murderous clergy member with political ties? Smuggler and human trafficker? Terrorist connections?

 

Hawke's not a rebel- Hawke's story is the rise of a crime boss.

 

Dragon Age II: Corruption Is Cool

[Iakus]

a complex approval system would be great, but that's something i wouldn't expect from bioware. 

I think the rivalry path was an attempt at a more complex system.  Something that doesn't require you to say whatever the companion wants to hear in order to deepen the relationship.

 

Unfortunately, it's still pretty binary, where you have to go full out in one direction or another to "complete" their arc.

[Iakus]

I have a rather hard time blaming Gamlen of 'robbing' his sister of her inheritance when, by all accounts, she not only fled it gladly, but he was jilted despite being the loyal son. Or 'taking advantage' of his family's plight when he didn't have any other way to help them.

 

Heck, if he hadn't had those particular debts and was just plain poor, he wouldn't have had the leverage to convince people to get the Hawke's into the city... when he really had no obligation to anyway, since, again, Leandra showed back up on the doorstep expecting help after abandoning the family long ago. And if he had had the money, there's no indication he wouldn't have spent it on them. Blaming a man for lacking the means to help family is bizzar to me.

 

Gamlen's certainly a racist (not sure about homophobic) SOB... but so what? The worst thing he does is be contemptible in character, and that alone doesn't hurt people. Compared to Hawk, who helped screw up the world, or Leandra, who ran away from home and will blame her own child for Darkspawn killing another, or half the companion cast of corrupt and occasionally murderous companions, he's a nobody on the morality scale of deserving damnation- and someone who repeatedly got shat on by the family he still went out of his way to help.

 

Gamlen's a pretty bitter man, though not entirely without cause.  Looking at his biography in WoT II, he's had a pretty hard life.  Some of it he brought upon himself, but a lot of it, well, if he didn't have bad luck he'd have no luck at all.  his life was full of misfortune.  I actually feel kinda sorry for him.

[Catilina]

Nah, Hawke's not a rebel. Just look at his crew.

 

Corrupt police officer who looks the other way and even is participates in crimes? Professional blackmailer with working ties with the underworld? Emo assassin? Eccentric mad scientist into forbidden research? Corrupt and occasionally murderous clergy member with political ties? Smuggler and human trafficker? Terrorist connections?

 

Hawke's not a rebel- Hawke's story is the rise of a crime boss.

 

Dragon Age II: Corruption Is Cool

This is simply not true.

 

1. I can playing Hawke as rebel.

2. Aveline law-abiding

3. Only Sebastian blackmailer in the game, you can playing with Hawke as a honest man. If you decide to play him as a criminal, then do it, but it is your choice. Just in Act1 you must have to play as smuggler, thanks for Uncle Gamlen.

4. Fenris are not emo (otherwise, what's moral complaint with emo? It is not a criminal), and nor assassin...  Fenris really not a cheerful man, and he has his reason, but he have a sense of humor.

5. Okay, Merrill are mad scientist, its true.

6. Another point for you: Sebastian is a vengeful hypocrite.

7. Yes, you are in connection with smugglers, but you dont necessary trading with human traffickers.

8. Terrorist connections? Plural? I know only one who blew up a building, but you don know this from Anders before he did it...

 

Dragon Age II: A story of a man who got involved in anything, everything went wrong. Sad story, but not from a villain.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is simply not true.

 

1. I can playing Hawke as rebel.

2. Aveline law-abiding

3. Only Sebastian blackmailer in the game, you can playing with Hawke as a honest man. If you decide to play him as a criminal, then do it, but it is your choice. Just in Act1 you must have to play as smuggler, thanks for Uncle Gamlen.

4. Fenris are not emo (otherwise, what's moral complaint with emo? It is not a criminal), and nor assassin...  Fenris really not a cheerful man, and he has his reason, but he have a sense of humor.

5. Okay, Merrill are mad scientist, its true.

6. Another point for you: Sebastian is a vengeful hypocrite.

7. Yes, you are in connection with smugglers, but you dont necessary trading with human traffickers.

8. Terrorist connections? Plural? I know only one who blew up a building, but you don know this from Anders before he did it...

Avalenie is a corrupt cop. She is a willing accomplice to various crimes, ignores rapes within her own ranks out of political expediancy,  makes special favors for friends, willingly employs Hawk as a fixer on the side for things she's not allowed to do, all while turning a blind eye to dangerous apostates legitimately sought by lawful parties.

 

Varric is a professional blackmailer. It's part of why he's a leaisulely merchant-prince with his own spy network and tags along on crimes while shooting mostly poor people with a crossbow for the fun of it. He gets paid to spill secrets, and to not spill secrets.

 

The complaint about Fenris is murder, not emo- that's just a sardonic zinger.

 

Isabella is a human trafficker. She's been engaged in the slave trade.

 

Anders, besides what he ultimately does, is an established member of the mage underground resistance network to Templar activities.

 

 

Dragon Age II: A story of a man who got involved in anything, everything went wrong. Sad story, but not from a villain.

 

Arguable, and mostly because Hawk was the protagonist.

 

It wasn't Breaking Bad proportions, but it'd be easy to depict Hawke as a villain from an outside perspective. An ambitious immigrant, seeking wealth and power to exploit corruption for personal and familial advantage, always one step ahead of the long arm of the law until (s)he gets in a position to make an attempt at becoming the law, to shape the city according to his or her will...

 

 

Gamlen's a pretty bitter man, though not entirely without cause.  Looking at his biography in WoT II, he's had a pretty hard life.  Some of it he brought upon himself, but a lot of it, well, if he didn't have bad luck he'd have no luck at all.  his life was full of misfortune.  I actually feel kinda sorry for him.

 

He deserves more pity than scorn. He gets plenty of that even when he does the right thing.

[Catilina]

Avalenie is a corrupt cop. She is a willing accomplice to various crimes, ignores rapes within her own ranks out of political expediancy,  makes special favors for friends, willingly employs Hawk as a fixer on the side for things she's not allowed to do, all while turning a blind eye to dangerous apostates legitimately sought by lawful parties.

 

Varric is a professional blackmailer. It's part of why he's a leaisulely merchant-prince with his own spy network and tags along on crimes while shooting mostly poor people with a crossbow for the fun of it. He gets paid to spill secrets, and to not spill secrets.

 

The complaint about Fenris is murder, not emo- that's just a sardonic zinger.

 

Isabella is a human trafficker. She's been engaged in the slave trade.

 

Anders, besides what he ultimately does, is an established member of the mage underground resistance network to Templar activities.

 

Arguable, and mostly because Hawk was the protagonist.

 

It wasn't Breaking Bad proportions, but it'd be easy to depict Hawke as a villain from an outside perspective. An ambitious immigrant, seeking wealth and power to exploit corruption for personal and familial advantage, always one step ahead of the long arm of the law until (s)he gets in a position to make an attempt at becoming the law, to shape the city according to his or her will...

 

 

 

He deserves more pity than scorn. He gets plenty of that even when he does the right thing.

If Aveline is not only naive, I accept it. My Hawke questioned her at the Arishok... and I still think that Aveline is not corrupt.

Isabela is expressly not agree to human trafficking

Yes, Fenris are murder, but not enjoying it. Most games have a similar character in the Origin toom and the Inquisition... How much more moral have they, than DA2? Remember Zevran... Fenris are an innocent lamb!

Oh, yes, Varric, ok, hes connections are really interest. But Zevran again, and "Red Jenny"?

Anders and his underground resistance: Why would it be immoral to support an underground resistance in a repressive regime?

 

So? Why more immoral the DA2, than the Origin or the Inquisition?

 

"Easy to depict Hawke as a villain from an outside perspective." And how easy it is to depict same the Warden, or the Inquisitor... Especially the latter one have too much political power for enforce his own interests.

Hawke do not had much political power, he just had some respect... With all he had can access that he and Anders and Merrill did not locked into the Circle and allowed to stay free.

[springacres]

'Take advantage of' implies that Gamlen had some other alternative. Taking advantage of someone is the alternative to not taking advantage of someone- it is, by necessity, a contrasting position. If you don't have an alternative course of action available, you can't be taking the contrast.

 

Gamlen's arrangement does resolve one (and only one) of his debts, yes- because that debt is all that Gamlen has to offer. Gamlen is poor- he can't pay for the bribes himself. But he can convince someone else to, by framing the Hawke's services as the only way they could ever collect from him, effectively lying his ass off for someone he's never met before and has no reason to actually have faith in. The deal only work, and only occurs, and only really benefits the Hawkes because they are family, because when all is said and done Gamlen is still poor and in debt to the person you don't choose. And then he still lets his newly returned family stay in his home for a year without them even contributing to rent.

 

Gamlen isn't some mustache-twirling opportunist who goes 'I could let you in, but I'll make you work for it.' That would be taking advantage of the Hawke family's need to get into Kirkwall. The alternative to Gamlen making arrangements to get into Kirkwall is that the Hawke family doesn't get into Kirkwall.

I didn't think about it in quite this way, obviously, but you make some excellent points, especially about Hawke and Gamlen both being out of other options.  I guess that does move it into the realm of Gamlen working things out for both his and Hawke's mutual benefit, as opposed to strictly him taking advantage of Hawke.  It still feels to me like he's taking advantage of Hawke's need to get into Kirkwall, but I suppose it's hard to argue that he's being totally selfish either.

[straykat]

Nah, Hawke's not a rebel. Just look at his crew.

 

Corrupt police officer who looks the other way and even is participates in crimes? Professional blackmailer with working ties with the underworld? Emo assassin? Eccentric mad scientist into forbidden research? Corrupt and occasionally murderous clergy member with political ties? Smuggler and human trafficker? Terrorist connections?

 

Hawke's not a rebel- Hawke's story is the rise of a crime boss.

 

Dragon Age II: Corruption Is Cool

 

I'd hardly call it a "boss". Crime, sure..

 

My preferred Hawke is my female though. I never intended her to be a rebel. She tries to play it cool until Anders forces her hand. Also sarcastic and wishy washy.

[Catilina]

I'd hardly call it a "boss". Crime, sure..

 

My preferred Hawke is my female though. I never intended her to be a rebel. She tries to play it cool until Anders forces her hand. Also sarcastic and wishy washy.

I play mostly rebels, wherever possible. Of course, sarcastic, but not a jerk (okay, but just a bit...), so sometimes diplomatically and sometimes direct.

[GoldenGail3]

I play mostly rebels, wherever possible. Of course, sarcastic, but not a jerk (okay, but just a bit...), so sometimes diplomatically and sometimes direct.

My Hawkes are also rebels - with good intentions! And humor! My Hawke can't help himself with the humor part though; it's who he is...

[Dean_the_Young]

If Aveline is not only naive, I accept it. My Hawke questioned her at the Arishok... and I still think that Aveline is not corrupt.

 

Your thoughts are irrelevant. Aveline's actions, and inactions, are what make her corrupt.

 

 

Isabela is expressly not agree to human trafficking

 

 

Isabella's backstory entails it. It's canonical, albeit with outside material.

 

 

Yes, Fenris are murder, but not enjoying it.

 

 

Whether he does it or not is irrelevant to him, you know, actually doing it willfully.
 

 

Most games have a similar character in the Origin toom and the Inquisition...

How much more moral have they, than DA2? Remember Zevran... Fenris are an innocent lamb!

 

 

And Gamlen is above Zevran as well.
 

 

Oh, yes, Varric, ok, hes connections are really interest. But Zevran again, and "Red Jenny"?

 

 

Racing to the bottom doesn't make Varric any better, or Gamlen any worse.

 

 

 

 

Anders and his underground resistance: Why would it be immoral to support an underground resistance in a repressive regime?

 

Plenty of reasons, but all irrelevant to (1) the analogy of Hawke's rise and (2) Gamlen's relative virtue to an insane mass-murderer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So? Why more immoral the DA2, than the Origin or the Inquisition?

 

 

Who said they were?

 

Other than you, I mean.

 

 

"Easy to depict Hawke as a villain from an outside perspective." And how easy it is to depict same the Warden, or the Inquisitor... Especially the latter one have too much political power for enforce his own interests.

 

 

Significantly harder, since the Inquisitor is practically a canon saint of heroism with minor blemishes, and even the worst Wardens are still Big Goddamn Heroes with the gratitude of 3-4 major players (the Treaty Quests and the Kingdom of Ferelden as a whole).

 

They saved the world, or significant parts of it. Hawke helped it break.

 

 

 

Hawke do not had much political power, he just had some respect... With all he had can access that he and Anders and Merrill did not locked into the Circle and allowed to stay free.

 

The game disagrees with you when it calls Hawke the second-most powerful person in Kirkwall by Act 3, behind only Meredith. His friends and accomplices control the police, have ties throughout the underworld, a private spy network, personal apostates at call, and contacts within the Chantry and Circle.

 

But yes, looks like you're finally starting to acknowledge Hawke's corruption in using power and wealth to seek personal exemption for self and favored associates from the laws and rules of Thedas.

[Catilina]

[...]

Of course. Hawke is the second man. However, only the first one have real political power there. Hawke's own "corrupt network" just enough to rein in the madness. In certain periods of time. Anders self-propelled.

The whole city is corrupt, measured at their Hawke and his team specifically righteous.

 

@Dean_the_Young: „Who said they were?”

 

You. Here:

 

Dragon Age II: Corruption Is Cool

 

@Dean_the_Young: „Significantly harder, since the Inquisitor is practically a canon saint of heroism with minor blemishes, and even the worst Wardens are still Big Goddamn Heroes with the gratitude of 3-4 major players (the Treaty Quests and the Kingdom of Ferelden as a whole).
They saved the world, or significant parts of it. Hawke helped it break.”

 

Hawke constantly trying to protect Kirkwall, but s/he fail. Why s/he would be malignant (if you do not play in that way ...)? S/he kills all the abomination. Sent the Qunari to home.Tracked the serial killer (even if a bit late). Fight against the bandits, for protect the city. Whats wrong with him/her?

 

Okay, I think we need to finish it, does not make sense. Deadlock.

 

But yes: Hawke is not world-saving hero. S/he fighting for his own family, mates, city. A refreshing change!

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course. Hawke is the second man. However, only the first one have real political power there. Hawke's own "corrupt network" just enough to rein in the madness. In certain periods of time. Anders self-propelled.

The whole city is corrupt, measured at their Hawke and his team specifically righteous.

 

None of which really refutes or even really challenges anything I said, so... what's the point you think you're making?

 

@Dean_the_Young: „Who said they were?”

 

You. Here:

 

 

 

Strangely, 'Corruption is Cool' does not mean 'the cast of DA2 is more immoral than the cast of DAO or DAI.' Bit of reading comprehension fail there.

 

I'd generally agree they are, if you want to make the claim- Morrigan's more bight than bark, Shale hasn't had free will long enough to really be bad with it, so really the worst character in terms of consequence is Leliana and she's very much on a reformist bent- but what you quoted does not mean or even imply what you said it did.

 

 

 

@Dean_the_Young: „Significantly harder, since the Inquisitor is practically a canon saint of heroism with minor blemishes, and even the worst Wardens are still Big Goddamn Heroes with the gratitude of 3-4 major players (the Treaty Quests and the Kingdom of Ferelden as a whole).
They saved the world, or significant parts of it. Hawke helped it break.”

 

Hawke constantly trying to protect Kirkwall, but s/he fail. Why s/he would be malignant (if you do not play in that way ...)? S/he kills all the abomination. Sent the Qunari to home.Tracked the serial killer (even if a bit late). Fight against the bandits, for protect the city. Whats wrong with him/her?

 

 

 

Hawke failing, of course. And Hawke's failings, but when you try to justify by the good things you do you also get to be responsible for the not so good things you do. Hawke generally meandered from one thing to the next, without a real goal or gameplan even for the crisis of the hour. He was reactive, not proactive, and Act 3 in particular was rather sad. No matter what you felt Hawke should be aiming to achieve, Hawke's actions don't actually further it in any significant way.

 

Plus, the bits of carelessness, corruption, and occasionally actively making things worse along the way. A few good deeds and good intentions don't necessarily balance out bad actions, especially systemic corruption that enables future greater harms.

 

 

 

Okay, I think we need to finish it, does not make sense. Deadlock.

 

But yes: Hawke is not world-saving hero. S/he fighting for his own family, mates, city. A refreshing change!

 

I agree. I think Bioware needs more petty criminals and explorations of mundane corruption in it's cast. Maybe next time time they'll be more self-aware about it, too. Between DA2 and the ME trilogy, I think Bioware's a bit overdue for recognizing the frequent corruption on the part of the player characters.

[Catilina]

[...]

 

Plus, the bits of carelessness, corruption, and occasionally actively making things worse along the way. A few good deeds and good intentions don't necessarily balance out bad actions, especially systemic corruption that enables future greater harms.

 

 

I agree. I think Bioware needs more petty criminals and explorations of mundane corruption in it's cast. Maybe next time time they'll be more self-aware about it, too. Between DA2 and the ME trilogy, I think Bioware's a bit overdue for recognizing the frequent corruption on the part of the player characters.

How good for you! If you think, Hawke and his team had corrupted Kirkwall, you never in your life have not seen corruption! If I were not so incredibly altruistic, I would envy you so...

 

(Or, on the contrary, you have seen too much corruption... then I do not envy you so.)

 

Hawke's story is not the story of an evil gang, and Hawke not a selfish a**hole (though you can play such a way).

Modifié par Catilina, 19 avril 2016 - 11:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

How good for you! If you think, Hawke and his team had corrupted Kirkwall, you never in your life have not seen corruption! If I were not so incredibly altruistic, I would envy you so...

 

Who said I think Hawke and his team had corrupted Kirkwall? Besides you, again.

 

Kirkwall is corrupt. This isn't particularly surprising. Hawke and friends are corrupt, and this is only surprising because typically heroic RPG protagonists and their good/nice companions are supposed to be above such things, at least on the noble/nice routes, rather than engaging in them as a matter of course. Usually corruption by an RPG protagonist is cast as the dirty/evil option, not so unremarkable it isn't even remarked upon.

 

What is surprising, on the other hand, is that the antagonists of the game are anti-corruption actors. Totalitarians, to be sure, but Kirkwall's corruption is one of the rallying points of the Arishock, while a large part of the political tensions with Meredith is that she stops corruption by and with the Templars. She does other criminal things, yes, but the sort of casual corruption that kept the civil peace- when Templars could be bribed to look the other way and the Mage Underground had smuggling routes straight into the Circle- end under her watch, and is generally treated as a bad thing.

 

If Meredith had just been rhetoric, corruption could have undermined her positions and let things continue as they were. It's a rare game in which anti-corruption is used as a bad thing that leads to disaster.

 

Really sends mixed messages, if you think about it.

[Catilina]

[...]

Kirkwall is corrupt. This isn't particularly surprising. Hawke and friends are corrupt, and this is only surprising because typically heroic RPG protagonists and their good/nice companions are supposed to be above such things, at least on the noble/nice routes, rather than engaging in them as a matter of course. Usually corruption by an RPG protagonist is cast as the dirty/evil option, not so unremarkable it isn't even remarked upon.

[...]

But that's the essence of DA2! It is not heroic RPG ...

 

(I still persevere in addition to Hawke and her/his companions are not "bad", and even in their own way trying to fight against the "bad" things of Kirkwall.)

 

However, I know this is not gonna convince. It was a pleasure...

[Shechinah]

But that they are rebels and trying to do good in Kirkwall as well as trying to stop the bad in the city does not change that they are breaking the law more often than not which makes their actions crimes and that figures of authority such as Aveline looks away or even partakes in said crimes.

 

Example; by law, Bethany, Anders and Merill should be in the Circle. That they are not and that they are apostates by choice is a crime. It does not matter why they do not wish to be there nor whether the law itself is oppression: it is law and they are breaking it. That Aveline looks away is corruption because she is knowingly conducting herself dishonestly by making exceptions for the people she knows when it comes to the law even when she takes the office of Guard Captain.   

 

This should not be taken as me being or not being supportive of the Circles or my opinion in regards to the related law: it's merely to show that Hawke and their band are criminals and do create corruption regardless of of their well-intending motives.      

[Catilina]

But that they are rebels and trying to do good in Kirkwall as well as trying to stop the bad in the city does not change that they are breaking the law more often than not which makes their actions crimes and that figures of authority such as Aveline looks away or even partakes in said crimes.

 

Example; by law, Bethany, Anders and Merill should be in the Circle. That they are not and that they are apostates by choice is a crime. It does not matter why they do not wish to be there nor whether the law itself is oppression: it is law and they are breaking it. That Aveline looks away is corruption because she is knowingly conducting herself dishonestly by making exceptions for the people she knows when it comes to the law even when she takes the office of Guard Captain.   

 

This should not be taken as me being or not being supportive of the Circles or my opinion in regards to the related law: it's merely to show that Hawke and their band are criminals and do create corruption regardless of of their well-intending motives.      

The law are necessary, without it would be chaos.

Nevertheless the law often does not serve the good. The people should not adopt any laws, because the law is made for man, not man for the law. If the law is bad, man's duty to change.
If the lawmakers fail to do so, then the civil disobedience are necessary. I think. 

 

The rebellion and the underground movements may disapprove, and they can agree. But it is not a crime categories, but political.

 

The Circle, in the form as in Kirkwall did not work.

[Shechinah]

And that would still be illegal.

 

Civil Disobedience, I should note, is peacefully and openly violating the law as a means of protesting it which excludes quite a number of the acts commited by Hawke and their band. That is as far as I know the definition of it.

[Catilina]

And that would still be illegal.

 

Civil Disobedience, I should note, is peacefully and openly violating the law as a means of protesting it which excludes quite a number of the acts commited by Hawke and their band. That is as far as I know the definition of it.

Hawke can support also the Templars, which is legal in principle.

 

And: which is illegal, it is not necessarily a crime. Then what do you call it when the law-abiding citizens are silent, like fried fish, and/or informs the police because their mother/father/sibling have "heretic" thoughts ...?

 

The law-abiding lifestyle is not always clearly good. (Truly: there is a situation where co-operation with "law" enforcement are the guilty deed.)

[GoldenGail3]

But that they are rebels and trying to do good in Kirkwall as well as trying to stop the bad in the city does not change that they are breaking the law more often than not which makes their actions crimes and that figures of authority such as Aveline looks away or even partakes in said crimes.
 
Example; by law, Bethany, Anders and Merill should be in the Circle. That they are not and that they are apostates by choice is a crime. It does not matter why they do not wish to be there nor whether the law itself is oppression: it is law and they are breaking it. That Aveline looks away is corruption because she is knowingly conducting herself dishonestly by making exceptions for the people she knows when it comes to the law even when she takes the office of Guard Captain.   
 
This should not be taken as me being or not being supportive of the Circles or my opinion in regards to the related law: it's merely to show that Hawke and their band are criminals and do create corruption regardless of of their well-intending motives.

Shouldn't Hawke also be in the circle with that logic as well? And were does that leave us... Hmm.....

[Shechinah]

Shouldn't Hawke also be in the circle with that logic as well? And were does that leave us... Hmm.....

 

If Hawke is a mage then yes, of course. That there is no option for Hawke to do so means that Hawke is always breaking that law and so is always a criminal in the game. If Hawke is not a mage then Hawke remains always criminal because of Bethany.
 

[Catilina]

If Hawke is a mage then yes, of course. That there is no option for Hawke to do so means that Hawke is always breaking that law and so is always a criminal in the game. If Hawke is not a mage then Hawke remains always criminal because of Bethany.
 

It is natural. That in real life, when a government chased a minority group of people (ethnic group, political opposition group, religious group etc.), and one-two of them escape, they are criminals? And also criminals, who help them?

I'm right?*

 

*Let me help! The answer (in most instances): NOT.

 

(Question: what viewpoint we look at – the repressive organisation's point of view or the moral point of view. In the game the mages are a minority group, without personal freedom. Fight for their freedom are not crime. If Hawke try to protect her/himself or his sister from this jail, his/her action i can't call "crime")

[Illegitimus]

But that they are rebels and trying to do good in Kirkwall as well as trying to stop the bad in the city does not change that they are breaking the law more often than not which makes their actions crimes and that figures of authority such as Aveline looks away or even partakes in said crimes.

 

Example; by law, Bethany, Anders and Merill should be in the Circle. That they are not and that they are apostates by choice is a crime. It does not matter why they do not wish to be there nor whether the law itself is oppression: it is law and they are breaking it. That Aveline looks away is corruption because she is knowingly conducting herself dishonestly by making exceptions for the people she knows when it comes to the law even when she takes the office of Guard Captain.   

 

This should not be taken as me being or not being supportive of the Circles or my opinion in regards to the related law: it's merely to show that Hawke and their band are criminals and do create corruption regardless of of their well-intending motives.      

 

There's no indication that Aveline goes after any apostates (who are not serial killers or something).  It's not her job.  Homicide cops can arrest drug dealers just for drug dealing, but they usually don't.  

[GoldenGail3]

If Hawke is a mage then yes, of course. That there is no option for Hawke to do so means that Hawke is always breaking that law and so is always a criminal in the game. If Hawke is not a mage then Hawke remains always criminal because of Bethany.

So I'm hearing that either time Hawke is always a criminal for one way or another.... But Bethany gets taken to the circle, so thusly Warrior/Rogue Hawke isn't criminal there - becuase they didn't make her a GW or something, so yeah, their not criminals if Bethany is taken to the Circle...