185 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

Tevinter Imperium, there isn´t even a question about it. Like so many said, the Imperium at least gives a option to live your life whereas the Qun lives it for you. I have no wish to support such system. That, and I am sucker for fantasy Rome. Qun needs to be eradicated and wiped off the face of Thedas.

[straykat]

Tevinter Imperium, there isn´t even a question about it. Like so many said, the Imperium at least gives a option to live your life whereas the Qun lives it for you. I have no wish to support such system. That, and I am sucker for fantasy Rome. Qun needs to be eradicated and wiped off the face of Thedas.

 

I'm still unsure whether it's fantasy Rome though. It looks more... colorful or something.

 

Totally talking out of my ass. I don't have much to go on.

 

I suppose I imagine them more as Byzantines, so that's still Rome in a sense. Except I always considered the Byzantine church pretty chill. While the Roman bishops more controversial. It's reversed in this setting.

[Uccio]

Yes Tevinter was supposed to be closer to Byzantium, but I bundle Byzantium into the same pile as Rome in this game. 

[Arvaarad]

I just completely dehumanize them though. Qunari at least press my buttons in a real way. They "trigger" me, to use a popular word. lol. Like one of those cops at parades in mirrored sunglasses, who can't be bothered to say hello and constantly acts like his **** doesn't stink. Like some of my stoic family. Like any totalitarian regime. lol.. Among other things.

Part of what makes totalitarian regimes so awful is that they're covering up incompetence. The aggression and the scapegoating that happens in an evil regime happens because they're trying, desperately, to redirect their people's attention from their own mismanagement.

Even religious extremism doesn't emerge on its own. It typically arises when people have some real-life dissatisfaction (like a drought, or famine, or war near their homes), and violence seems like the only way to survive. But normal people don't like doing violence, so it helps if the violence is dressed up in a way that feels moral.

I don't mind the Qunari government being militaristic and restrictive. That's a thing that happens in real life. But for me, it would sell the evil better if there were some underlying unrest which caused them to be that way. Some incompetence or scarcity that they're covering up.

[straykat]

Part of what makes totalitarian regimes so awful is that they're covering up incompetence. The aggression and the scapegoating that happens in an evil regime happens because they're trying, desperately, to redirect their people's attention from their own mismanagement.

Even religious extremism doesn't emerge on its own. It typically arises when people have some real-life dissatisfaction (like a drought, or famine, or war near their homes), and violence seems like the only way to survive. But normal people don't like doing violence, so it helps if the violence is dressed up in a way that feels moral.

I don't mind the Qunari government being militaristic and restrictive. That's a thing that happens in real life. But for me, it would sell the evil better if there were some underlying unrest which caused them to be that way. Some incompetence or scarcity that they're covering up.

 

I always thought totalitarians were just hung up on ordering their environment. Like a crazy housemaid, but on a government scale. For some reason, that's my first thought looking at Polpot, for exaple. I don't know if that sounds silly, but I think some people are just comfortable with orderliness, and this is the dark side of it. And how some develop political systems around the essential idea. While a place like America was founded on more chaotic principles. Indepedence and freedom (even those aren't entirely true in practice, it's still the basic impetus behind the spirit of the land).

 

Militaristic and restrictive isn't a problem to me either though... not in themselves.

[Fredward]

The Qun is an answer for a lot of people, if they weren't expansionist and they let those who questioned the Qun go and not 're-educated' I'd let them be. As is? Ehhhhhhh. Tevinter is an icky oligarchy that defines worth by what you're born as, something you have no control over which isn't cool either. The slavery isn't terribly kosher either. But! I find the Qun the bigger issue, it subsumes all. It has no place for compromise or mercy or pity, it's rigid control does not allow for anything that isn't it and that is a much bigger threat than Tevinter.

[QueenCrow]

I think part of my perception of Qunari is full-on wishful thinking. Some part of me really, really wants the ultimate message to be something other than "your fear of people who don't look like you or share your religion is 1,000,000% justified. They're perfectly organized, they're hidden among us, they're advancing a secret agenda right under our noses, and their ultimate goal is to convert or kill everyone in their path. Your grandad's incoherent dinner table rant was correct after all!"

I'd love to see more nuance in the Qun, schisms within the philosophy. I mean, looking directly into Koslun's writing, the aggression and war seems tacked on. Koslun was all about mastering oneself, proselytization, even peaceful proselytization, seems so opposed to that. Not that this has ever stopped religious leaders in real life.

And I would be esctatic if some of their "oops, disavowing time" moments are genuine screwups, rather than their shadowy network of sleepers behaving exactly as planned. I would love if their pushes for invasion are either (1) mostly for show or (2) reflective of some scarcity in Par Vollen, a way of dressing up resource grabs in the Qun to make the aggression look more palatable to their own citizens. I want to see incompetence and corruption, rather than vast, well-planned conspiracy of fanatics.

That's what I'd like to see, and I'll admit that colors my view of their culture. I look for the traits I want to see, and emphasize them.

Your post is really impressive and the feelings you communicate are ones to which I can relate - perhaps because it sounds as if my granddad was rather like yours, and my reluctance validate the dinner table rants is like yours.

 

Sometimes when playing DA:I, I see the gears in the plots - the codes on the Storm Coast that suggested Qunari are inspired by the waste and devastation of locusts.

http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_The_Qun

 

...Or the conscious decision to portray Qunari association with terrorist acts - barrels of Gaatlok hidden in important human edifices in Trespasser.

 

I don't really enjoy feeling overtly manipulated, and I certainly don't want my grandfather's racist ideology to be somehow validated - it was only ever destructive. But if the creators of DA4 decide that they're going to portray the Qunari as "them" (them are those who are most different from us) in a game of "us vs. them", all understanding directed toward the Qunari may well turn out to be just wishful thinking.

 

P.S.  I've noticed quite a few of your other posts too and they give the impression that you're a smart, thoughtful person.  Your voice is a positive contribution here, in my opinion.

[Qun00]

Most people under the Qun don't really suffer because of it.

If you actually agree with its philosophy you're gonna do just fine as Sten and Tallis did.

I find Tevinter harder to accept. Human sacrifices are absolutely repulsive. It is important to be free but there are worse evils.

[Arvaarad]

Your post is really impressive and the feelings you communicate are ones to which I can relate - perhaps because it sounds as if my granddad was rather like yours, and my reluctance validate the dinner table rants is like yours.

Sometimes when playing DA:I, I see the gears in the plots - the codes on the Storm Coast that suggested Qunari are inspired by the waste and devastation of locusts.
http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_The_Qun

...Or the conscious decision to portray Qunari association with terrorist acts - barrels of Gaatlok hidden in important human edifices in Trespasser.

I don't really enjoy feeling overtly manipulated, and I certainly don't want my grandfather's racist ideology to be somehow validated - it was only ever destructive. But if the creators of DA4 decide that they're going to portray the Qunari as "them" (them are those who are most different from us) in a game of "us vs. them", all understanding directed toward the Qunari may well turn out to be just wishful thinking.

P.S. I've noticed quite a few of your other posts too and they give the impression that you're a smart, thoughtful person. Your voice is a positive contribution here, in my opinion.

I'm optimistic that we'll get to see the other side. This is our chance, isn't it? Going to northern Thedas, a place where we might actually meet Qunari civilians rather than soldiers and spies. In southern Thedas, it would be natural for us to get a skewed perception - the only people we'd meet are people who are there for military reasons, or people who left Qunari lands.

Most factions would look like oppressive, freedom-hating warmongers if we judged them only on their spies and military. Those jobs have a rigid hierarchy and can easily slide into promoting toxic patriotism ("how do we convince decent people to kill other people for reasons other than self-defense?"), no matter what the culture.

[QueenCrow]

Arvaarad, on 22 Oct 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

 

I'm optimistic that we'll get to see the other side. This is our chance, isn't it? Going to northern Thedas, a place where we might actually meet Qunari civilians rather than soldiers and spies. In southern Thedas, it would be natural for us to get a skewed perception - the only people we'd meet are people who are there for military reasons, or people who left Qunari lands.

Most factions would look like oppressive, freedom-hating warmongers if we judged them only on their spies and military. Those jobs have a rigid hierarchy and can easily slide into promoting toxic patriotism ("how do we convince decent people to kill other people for reasons other than self-defense?"), no matter what the culture.

 

 

Exactly!  Anyone who has been through military boot camp knows you're right.  That's what military indoctrination and training is for - stripping one of their individuality and forming them into a cohesive group that has been given every reason to go into other countries and kill other people for reasons other than self defense.

 

Again, I truly appreciate that you are willing to share your thought process!

 

Edits to add:  I really hope that your optimism pays off and we do get to see a side of the Qunari rather than just soldiers and spies!

[straykat]

Most people under the Qun don't really suffer because of it.

If you actually agree with its philosophy you're gonna do just fine as Sten and Tallis did.

I find Tevinter harder to accept. Human sacrifices are absolutely repulsive. It is important to be free but there are worse evils.

 

Of course it's OK, if you agree with it.

 

But in reality, few would. I guess in Thedas, there's a higher number of autistic and obsessive people who sooo desperately need to order and categorize everything around them. Else their lives are without meaning or something.

 

Generally though, you'd be put in a mental hospital for that. Not to mention you're just plain unfun. There's just no excitement in it. Most people actually prefer living freely, going with the flow, and not being  goddamn finger wagger about everything.

[Ashagar]

Most people under the Qun don't really suffer because of it.

If you actually agree with its philosophy you're gonna do just fine as Sten and Tallis did.

I find Tevinter harder to accept. Human sacrifices are absolutely repulsive. It is important to be free but there are worse evils.

 

 

The Qun inflects things worse than death on people. Permanently breaking peoples minds and brainwashing people are perfectly acceptable in the qun and then there is what they do to mages that makes even the worse anti-mage fanatics in the southern Chantry and Templar horrified.

 

Its physical death and enslavement of some but with everyone having free will vs the mental enslavement of everyone with some being inflected with fates that make death kind in comparison for the crime of being simply born, being a creative or inquisitive personality or not conforming exactly to caste rules.

[Heimdall]

Most people under the Qun don't really suffer because of it.

If you actually agree with its philosophy you're gonna do just fine as Sten and Tallis did.

I find Tevinter harder to accept. Human sacrifices are absolutely repulsive. It is important to be free but there are worse evils.

Its not as if that's a part of their national religion (now), its something a single class of people do behind closed doors, and not even all of them.

 

While its terrible, for me it doesn't compare to what the Qun inflicts as a society on anyone that disagrees.

[straykat]

It'd be nice to play a city elf who plays the two sides against each other.

 

And then even screw over the trickster himself, if he shows up. Out dread wolf the dread wolf.

 

 

I can't find much potential otherwise though. Like someone told me above. Kill em all. This world sucks. I had a decent time in Southern Thedas , before DAI trashed that as well.

[MortallyDead]

I think part of my perception of Qunari is full-on wishful thinking. Some part of me really, really wants the ultimate message to be something other than "your fear of people who don't look like you or share your religion is 1,000,000% justified. They're perfectly organized, they're hidden among us, they're advancing a secret agenda right under our noses, and their ultimate goal is to convert or kill everyone in their path. Your grandad's incoherent dinner table rant was correct after all!"

I'd love to see more nuance in the Qun, schisms within the philosophy. I mean, looking directly into Koslun's writing, the aggression and war seems tacked on. Koslun was all about mastering oneself, proselytization, even peaceful proselytization, seems so opposed to that. Not that this has ever stopped religious leaders in real life.

And I would be esctatic if some of their "oops, disavowing time" moments are genuine screwups, rather than their shadowy network of sleepers behaving exactly as planned. I would love if their pushes for invasion are either (1) mostly for show or (2) reflective of some scarcity in Par Vollen, a way of dressing up resource grabs in the Qun to make the aggression look more palatable to their own citizens. I want to see incompetence and corruption, rather than vast, well-planned conspiracy of fanatics.

That's what I'd like to see, and I'll admit that colors my view of their culture. I look for the traits I want to see, and emphasize them.

As far as proselytization goes, I don't see it as such a stretch for the Qunari. The Qunari are all about order, duty/service to the whole, and of course the Qun. If you compare the political backstabbing and scheming of Orlais, Tevinter and Ferelden, the events in Kirkwall, the mage rebellion, the Breach...the south is total chaos. I think the Qunari see it as their duty to bring order to chaos, thus they need to spread the Qun. So I don't think that their expansion conquests are going to be written off as just for show, or simply a resource grab. Rather I hope that a strike against the south/Inquisition is a genuine effort to remove an obstacle in their quest to enlighten. Anything else seems like an attempt to 'humanize' the Qunari, to make their actions, their society and their beliefs more palatable to the players. That being said, I am far from convinced that the Qun is a perfect system of beliefs, if it was then there would be no reason for Qunari to become Tal-Vashoth. 

 

If we were able to play under the Qun, which I don't think will ever happen unfortunately, I hope that we are just thrust into that world. That way, the pc can really struggle with the ideas of the Qun, or simply reject them and play as the rebel. But if you are able to try to understand what it is to submit to the Qun, accept your place even if that means you are a mage with your mouth sewn shut, then I think it could really be a one of a kind experience. 

[straykat]

As far as proselytization goes, I don't see it as such a stretch for the Qunari. The Qunari are all about order, duty/service to the whole, and of course the Qun. If you compare the political backstabbing and scheming of Orlais, Tevinter and Ferelden, the events in Kirkwall, the mage rebellion, the Breach...the south is total chaos. I think the Qunari see it as their duty to bring order to chaos, thus they need to spread the Qun.

 

The chaos and backstabbing is what made any of this series potentially fun.

 

Last thing I want is it fixed too much. Situationally, of course, that's a good thing to do sometimes... but not as a total thing. Not in the sense that I  strip why I even found the setting interesting and exciting in the first place. Why would I want to change Orlais' backstabbing, for example? Or The Game? That's what makes Orlais what it is.

 

My guess is this is why a majority of people aren't going to be big Qunari fans. The whole purpose for the Qunari even existing is to destroy anything resembling Dragon Age and remake it all in their image. That's boring. People actually LIKE Dragon Age. They don't buy it because they hate it.

 

Sarcastic Hawke said it best to the Arishok. Hawke had no interest in changing Kirkwall. He loved both the "beauty and ugliness" of the world. The only thing that makes the Qunari cool is the Arishok's reaction. "You..... like it?"

[Arvaarad]

As far as proselytization goes, I don't see it as such a stretch for the Qunari. The Qunari are all about order, duty/service to the whole, and of course the Qun.

Right, the Qun as it exists today encourages proselytization, but the Qun as it exists today != the writings of Koslun.

A traveler asked the Ashkaari: "What was your vision of our purpose?"
The Great Ashkaari replied: "I will tell you a story."

A vast granite stature stands on an island, holding back the sea.

The heavens crown its brow. It sees to the edge of the world.

The sea drowns its feet with every tide.

The heavens turn overhead, light and dark. The tide rises to devour the earth, and falls back.

The sun and the stars fall to the sea one by one in their turn, only to rise again.

The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless.

Struggle is an illusion. There is nothing to struggle against.

The deception flows deeper. The statue resists the ebb and flow of the sea.

And is whittled away with each wave.

It protests the setting sun, and its face is burned looking upon it. It does not know itself.

Stubbornly, it resists wisdom and is transformed.

If you love purpose, fall into the tide. Let it carry you.

Do not fear the dark. The sun and the stars will return to guide you.

You have seen the greatest kings build monuments for their glory

Only to have them crumble and fade.

How much greater is the world than their glory?

The purpose of the world renews itself with each season. Each change only marks

A part of the greater whole.

The sea and the sky themselves:

Nothing special. Only pieces.

I think what happened is the modern leaders viewed themselves as the tide, rather than the tide representing the world, which seems to be the intent of the text. There's an artificial creation, the statue, being worn away by the tide, by nature. Koslun makes it clear that order arises naturally.

There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.

"Trying to impose order" sounds more like the statue than the tide.

But that's the thing with religious texts, they're chameleons. This is what makes popular religious texts so popular - they can be bent to fit any world view. Just like Tevinter sees "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him," while the southern Chantry sees "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him."

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Tevinter, while I respect Qunari as individuals, their whole ideology is BS and has no place in Thedas.

 

For all of his racist bias, the only thing I can certainly agree with Solas on is that the Qun rob people of their free will and try to pass that as a good thing.

 

Dragon Age II made the Qunari look good because the Arishok and his entourage were the most reasonable fellows out of the entire mess called Kirkwall but Inquisition and Trespasser made it abundantly clear that the only reason that happened was because he was there only for the book Isabela stole.

 

Qunari don't see people as people, they see themselves as tools whose lifes are defined by a system which must be obeyed unquestionably while others are seen like unshaped rocks whose existence must be assimilated to the Qun.

 

For all their decadence, Tevinter knows that slaves have agency and hate being treated like crap, they just don't end slavery because of cultural bias and economic dependence on it.

 

Still, there are voices of reform in Tevinter and everyone born with magic, even a slave, has the slightest chance of climbing up for a better place in life.

 

Qunari have no voices of reform and no way to change your social status, if you are born a mage they stitch your mouth and collar you like a mad dog and if you're a woman who wants to be a soldier or a man who wants to be a teacher then the thing between your pants is the opposite of what it looks like.

 

Case in point, after all the crap the HoF went through with Sten the guy still attacked Thedas as Arishok, Ben-Hassrath will love you until told to stab you and the Qunari definition of an alliance is to send a few token resources to fight against an ancient force of evil then try to blow you up and take over your organization.

 

On the other hand, Dorian and Maevaris are cinnamon rolls who learned from their friends to try and change their countries, Alexius can be made one again and their definition of an alliance is to actively hunt down the backers of the split faction trying to kill you.

 

All in all, Tevinter >>> Qunari.

[Medhia_Nox]

I would side with the Qunari.  

 

Thedosian history has, so far, ridden the same currents as our own world... and Tevinter is a civilization in decline, the Qunari are a civilization in their ascendancy. 

[Cute Nug]

If our choice is Tevinter or the Qun then I say just let Solas win.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Cute Nug:  I would side with Sister Petrice or Rendon Howe before Solas. 

[Cute Nug]

@Cute Nug:  I would side with Sister Petrice or Rendon Howe before Solas. 

 

I agree if you add in harvester Orsino with Sister Petrice and Rendon Howe.

 

They would be better than the Qun, Tevinter, and Solas.  

[MortallyDead]

I think what happened is the modern leaders viewed themselves as the tide, rather than the tide representing the world, which seems to be the intent of the text. There's an artificial creation, the statue, being worn away by the tide, by nature. Koslun makes it clear that order arises naturally.

The tide isn't the world. The tide is a part of the world. The point of this parable is, in my mind, to expose the illusion of struggle against/in the world. The statue only seems to be struggling against the world. In reality the tide, the sun, the erosion, stars, everything is just a part of the whole. So while it may seem the case that the statue is struggling against the world, because as the Ashkaari said "Each change only marks a part of the greater whole". The natural state of the world is one of order, and from the Qunari perspective, the rest of the world has deluded themselves into thinking that they can change that. What they need to do is to "...fall into the tide. Let it carry you". However, the ideas of free will and self-determinism that are prevalent in southern Thedas runs counter to this idea, which is why the Qun seems so counterintuitive. 

 

What this parable does not make clear, is how those beyond the Qun ought to be brought to this revelation. In this case, it seems that the Qunari feel that violence is key to beginning this self-realization. 

 

I think what happened is the modern leaders viewed themselves as the tide, rather than the tide representing the world, which seems to be the intent of the text. There's an artificial creation, the statue, being worn away by the tide, by nature. Koslun makes it clear that order arises naturally.

Koslun's claim here is that the world is naturally one of order. That if one wants to find their purpose, they need simply submit to their role in the world. Ideally that would be a natural process of self realization. So yes, it should arise in a natural way, in fact, the Qunari likely believe that their actions (violent as they may be) is how they fulfil their purpose. If that is the case then it is arguable that everything the Qunari do to spread the Qun, is a natural thing as they are simply doing what their purpose is. But no one is claiming that what is natural is peaceful. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Part of what makes totalitarian regimes so awful is that they're covering up incompetence. The aggression and the scapegoating that happens in an evil regime happens because they're trying, desperately, to redirect their people's attention from their own mismanagement.

Even religious extremism doesn't emerge on its own. It typically arises when people have some real-life dissatisfaction (like a drought, or famine, or war near their homes), and violence seems like the only way to survive. But normal people don't like doing violence, so it helps if the violence is dressed up in a way that feels moral.

I don't mind the Qunari government being militaristic and restrictive. That's a thing that happens in real life. But for me, it would sell the evil better if there were some underlying unrest which caused them to be that way. Some incompetence or scarcity that they're covering up.

 

They're violent savages tainted by dragon blood, so they require the fascist and Orwellian structure of the Qun to keep them in line.

 

No, seriously, I think that's exactly why Koslun came up with it and why it was accepted by the Kossith, as sad, simplistic and stupid as it sounds.

 

Both Iron Bull and Sten mention the need to maintain self control and both went through psychotic episodes, with Bull needing brainwashing to fix himself. If the Bull is right about the Qunari having dragon blood in them then that would mean that their a race of Reavers. And we all know how dragon blood leads people to go crazy with the benefit of extra strength and power. 

[Almostfaceman]

They're violent savages tainted by dragon blood, so they require the fascist and Orwellian structure of the Qun to keep them in line.

 

No, seriously, I think that's exactly why Koslun came up with it and why it was accepted by the Kossith, as sad, simplistic and stupid as it sounds.

 

Both Iron Bull and Sten mention the need to maintain self control and both went through psychotic episodes, with Bull needing brainwashing to fix himself. If the Bull is right about the Qunari having dragon blood in them then that would mean that their a race of Reavers. And we all know how dragon blood leads people to go crazy with the benefit of extra strength and power. 

 

I think you may be on to something here.