527 réponses à ce sujet

[CardButton]

@Ariella 

 

You broke so many of my rules! 

 

1) The "Sole PC per Game" argument. 

 

2) True, but doesn't really support the need for a new PC.

 

3) Very vague, but also true. But again arguing against why the Inquisitor shouldn't return does not support having a new PC.

 

4) OK, then the Inquisitor doesn't solve every problem?  In fact narratively they only have one more problem to solve.  And again this is primarily why you don't want the Inquisitor as a PC, rather than telling us what you want to see from a new one.

 

5) Right.  Your right, but no-one is suggesting the Inquisitor should come back for multiple games, just for one more because if may make sense for the setting.  "One PC per Game argument", "Wanting a clean break from previous games argument",

 

6) Again, arguing against the Inquisitor.  Your right it is possible the New PC could be better suited, but I was hoping for was how YOU think they would be better suited.

 

7) Budget, development issue arguments.  

 

All I asked for was what you wanted to see from a New PC and what you wanted from the story, but most of what you gave were vague, default answers (many of which still focused on either why you want a clean break from previous games or why you don't want the Inquisitor as a PC).  What was asked for was your vision of what DA4 could be in regards to a New PC, why is that so hard? 

[Ariella]

Not exactly. They left her fate ambiguous on purpose in case they might develop plans for her in future. At the point in time when they decided this, it was probably nothing more than "She has potential, let's keep her in the game."

That is if she survived. I never got the sense that if you side with the mages, Cal makes it anymore than Samson does if you side with the templars. I don't see Cory as an understanding soul about failure. A part of my reasoning for this is that Cal makes a much better candidate for Vessel in general, I'd think.

Samson doesn't have all that much to recommend him except for a resistance to red lyrium, but even that can be overcome.

[Heimdall]

That is if she survived. I never got the sense that if you side with the mages, Cal makes it anymore than Samson does if you side with the templars. I don't see Cory as an understanding soul about failure. A part of my reasoning for this is that Cal makes a much better candidate for Vessel in general, I'd think.

Samson doesn't have all that much to recommend him except for a resistance to red lyrium, but even that can be overcome.

There is a codex in the Western Approach that mentions her even if you choose the mages.  The implication is that the Venatori as a whole is out of favor with him, but she is still apparently leading the after Alexius' failure.

[PsychoBlonde]

Now imagine if in a tabletop RPG campaign, your GM did to your character what was done to the Inquisitor with no input at all from you. I don't know about others, but in that situation, I consider it very likely I'd say "Not with me, I'll make a new character". In that way, Trespasser made the Inquisitor less my character - and thus less "relatable" as the protagonist of a game - than she had been before, and it would be an uphill battle to remake the connection. Again, I'd rather start the game without that kind of ballast.

 

It's the GM's JOB in a tabletop game to present you with challenges, problems, opportunities, and adventures, not to sit by passively and have you dictate what happens to your character to them.  So, yeah, if a GM presented me with something that interesting, I'd be like, WOW, AWESOME.  Character transformations are great!

 

That being said, I think the quizzy will be best as a background character for future games.  I like having a new protagonist every game.

 

My favorite idea would be for the Quizzy to open an academy and teach their skills to whoever comes along.  This would be a great way to recruit for the battle against Solas and also to stay informed of what's going on in Thedas without having to stir about much personally.  People are coming and going from prestigious schools all the time--students, instructors, visitors of all kinds.  You could host regular tournaments with prizes, too.  It'd be perfect.

[AresKeith]

Not exactly. They left her fate ambiguous on purpose in case they might develop plans for her in future. At the point in time when they decided this, it was probably nothing more than "She has potential, let's keep her in the game."

 

True, but knowing Bioware they're gonna use her lol

[CardButton]

 

My favorite idea would be for the Quizzy to open an academy and teach their skills to whoever comes along.  This would be a great way to recruit for the battle against Solas and also to stay informed of what's going on in Thedas without having to stir about much personally.  People are coming and going from prestigious schools all the time--students, instructors, visitors of all kinds.  You could host regular tournaments with prizes, too.  It'd be perfect.

OK I won't get into the whole, there is better timing for settling down and building a new organization/altering an old organization when you know the world is coming to an end, but don't know how soon or where that will occur thing.

 

So all I gotta say is ... your Inquisitor's retirement plan is to make Hogwarts?!  It may be poorly timed IMO, but THAT IS AWESOME!  

[Ariella]

@Ariella 
 
You broke so many of my rules! 
 
1) The "Sole PC per Game" argument. 
 
2) True, but doesn't really support the need for a new PC.
 
3) Very vague, but also true. But again arguing against why the Inquisitor shouldn't return does not support having a new PC.
 
4) OK, then the Inquisitor doesn't solve every problem?  In fact narratively they only have one more problem to solve.  And again this is primarily why you don't want the Inquisitor as a PC, rather than telling us what you want to see from a new one.
 
5) Right.  Your right, but no-one is suggesting the Inquisitor should come back for multiple games, just for one more because if may make sense for the setting.  "One PC per Game argument", "Wanting a clean break from previous games argument",
 
6) Again, arguing against the Inquisitor.  Your right it is possible the New PC could be better suited, but I was hoping for was how YOU think they would be better suited.
 
7) Budget, development issue arguments.  
 
All I asked for was what you wanted to see from a New PC and what you wanted from the story, but most of what you gave were vague, default answers (many of which still focused on either why you want a clean break from previous games or why you don't want the Inquisitor as a PC).  What was asked for was your vision of what DA4 could be in regards to a New PC, why is that so hard? 

I wasn't playing by any set of rules. I was giving my opinion. I apologize but I see this as a conversation, which shouldn't be constrained, because if it is, what's the point?

There is a codex in the Western Approach that mentions her even if you choose the mages.  The implication is that the Venatori as a whole is out of favor with him, but she is still apparently leading the after Alexius' failure.

Nod, I've caught that, but I always got the sense it was before Haven. Alexius either didn't lure the IQ to Redcliffe or was taken by the Inquisition.

The biggest problem I have always had with these games is timing. Could you really march an army from either Redcliffe or Therifal and get to Haven in that small amount of time? Same with Adamant, the damned place should have been overrun by the time the army got to the fortress.

I've spent more hours than I care to count trying to figure this out. It made my ears bleed.

[CardButton]

I wasn't playing by any set of rules. I was giving my opinion. I apologize but I see this as a conversation, which shouldn't be constrained, because if it is, what's the point?
 

 

To be honest the reason I tried to switch gears is it simply more constructive to discuss what we do want to see in a new game, rather than what we don't (because its too easy for the latter to turn into arguments and bickering).  Besides, you've been using the same points (I want a clean break from previous Content, the Inquisitor's arm, the Budget/production difficulty, or "One PC per Game") for pages now in multiple threads and no matter how many reasonable ways, or how many times people have tried to discuss or refute those points with you ... you seem to simply seem not to care.  It's not a conversation when one side is immovable on their stance and you cannot advocate for something, simply by denying something else.

 

Plus, to be fair, it did look like you formatted that post as a response to my questions. 

[Eivuwan]

Pet peeve:

 

Please stop using "IQ" as an abbreviation for Inquisitor. "IQ" is so commonly used to mean "intelligence quotient" that it is jarring to my brain every time I see it used in this way. Inky or Quizzy are so much better as abbreviations.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@cardbutton they left her fate ambiguous on purpose because they have plans for her

If she does show up, hopefully we can make her fate not be ambiguous by bringing that monster to justice or putting her down like the rabid animal she is. 

[Heimdall]

Nod, I've caught that, but I always got the sense it was before Haven. Alexius either didn't lure the IQ to Redcliffe or was taken by the Inquisition.

The biggest problem I have always had with these games is timing. Could you really march an army from either Redcliffe or Therifal and get to Haven in that small amount of time? Same with Adamant, the damned place should have been overrun by the time the army got to the fortress.

I've spent more hours than I care to count trying to figure this out. It made my ears bleed.

Well the Venatori are present at the Still Ruins (just outside of which the codex is found), and Corypheus still deploys them to look for relics in the Forbidden Oasis (I tend to do it late game) and Hissing Wastes.  And its not like it was Calpernia's failing at Redcliffe.  So I think it makes sense that she's still in charge of the Venatori, they all just got demoted to the B Team as far as Cory is concerned.

 

Part of it is the necessity of allowing for the player to explore other areas and do sidequests.  That's the issue with Redcliffe and Therinfal.  Adamant is a problem, but I can only assume all the mages being bound over a span of time in codex entries found during the siege indicates they Grey Wardens didn't just jump to the big ritual.  They had their mages summon demons only a few at a time, over a week or two, maybe more.  We just have phenomenal timing to arrive at the climax, or they accelerated their plans when they knew the Inquisition was coming to stop them.

[Super Drone]

Pet peeve:

 

Please stop using "IQ" as an abbreviation for Inquisitor. "IQ" is so commonly used to mean "intelligence quotient" that it is jarring to my brain every time I see it used in this way. Inky or Quizzy are so much better as abbreviations.

 

Cute diminutives are my pet peeve.

[AresKeith]

If she does show up, hopefully we can make her fate not be ambiguous by putting that monster down like the rabid animal she is. 

 

jeez tell us how you really feel

[Absafraginlootly]

Nice!  This is the kind of stuff I was hoping for, though some of you did still use the whole "I want a clean break from the previous content" argument a bit. For-shame LOL! 

 

So then couple of questions if your all-right with them?

 

1) Those of you who want a break from the whole organization angle (which I am on board with), how would the game handle referring to the character?  Would they run off their last name (sort of like they did with Hawke)?  If they did, would you be OK having less options for Origins, because that is simply more feasible story/dialogue-wise (it wouldn't limit them entirely I just wouldn't expect them to have as many as DA:O)?  Like for example. 1 for Elf, 1 for Dwarf, 1 for Human, 1 for Mage? Maybe ... 1 for a Slave Qunari (due to the setting and the fact that even Dorian Romanced Iron Bull can't do it, I doubt any Qunari who wasn't in chains of some sort would be allowed to just waltz around Tevinter).  This is actually the type of New-PC I was hoping for in regards to my ideal Dual-PC DA4 anyway, so I'm interested in your responses!

 

2) Solas is a bit more difficult a character to write around than Corypheous because of his personality and tactics (preferring to stay in the shadows/wanting the world as stable as possible before the end/not really caring about the Elves of current Thedas, at all).  It's doubtful he would be making his presence known (and I do admit that I'm not really into the whole "protege" angle, because it does beg the question why the Inquisitor isn't just their themselves and removes some of the independence naturally inherent to a new PC).  So then (without changing his character) whats your plan on getting not just the New PC, but the world involved with the Solas problem (and remember not even Fereldon or Orlais seemed to consider him a real threat)?

 

3) While I like the idea of Calpernia coming back in some form, making her a companion seems a bit much because of her potential ending if you choose to side with the Templars in DA:I.  If you'd like her as a Companion (and not just a Cameo NPC) then what ways could you deal with her Templar ending?

 

 

Calpernia falling off a cliff doesn't seem a problem to me since in that very same quest you see two different characters fly, Morrigan as a bird, and Corpheus, her master, just straight zooming towards you under his own power. I'm more concerned about a Calpernia who was talked down and went off to confront Corypheus. Such a confrontation would likely lead to her death, of course she may not even have found him before he reached the well the fled the field.

 

With regards to names, I expect Tevinter has some form ser/serah, mr./ ms., we don't know whether the New Protagonist will have some from of title or not. But frankly, if fallout 4 can have 1000 first names recorded, DA4 can probably manage like, 4 different last names.

 

With regard to how the inquisitor/newbie might interact and why the inquisitor wouldn't be present. I could see the inquisitor having sent agents all over Thedas to spy and try to figure out what Solas is doing, not just Tevinter. One of Newbies companions is an inquisitor agent, though newbie doesn't know it, who is doing some good while observing events in tevinter. Then some part of Solas's plot comes into play, and the agent reveals what they are, the inquisitor is weeks or months of travel away depending on where in Thedas they are so Newbie and Agent must deal with it. Later in the plot the inquisitor does show up, whether for the final confrontation, or to talk to Newbie and then have both go off to deal with different plot threads in different locations (this could be done as either an npc Inq whose dialogue you control, or as a dual protagonist after this point).

[Ariella]

Well the Venatori are present at the Still Ruins (just outside of which the codex is found), and Corypheus still deploys them to look for relics in the Forbidden Oasis (I tend to do it late game) and Hissing Wastes.  And its not like it was Calpernia's failing at Redcliffe.  So I think it makes sense that she's still in charge of the Venatori, they all just got demoted to the B Team as far as Cory is concerned.

(nod) The thing is, why kill Samson, who wasn't at Therinfal and had as much to do with the failing there as Calpernia's with the Venatori. The implication in Emprise is that he's dead, so I have to wonder why she'd still be alive, if Corypheus is using what looks like the "you're the leader, your responsibility" theory.
 

Part of it is the necessity of allowing for the player to explore other areas and do sidequests.  That's the issue with Redcliffe and Therinfal.  Adamant is a problem, but I can only assume all the mages being bound over a span of time in codex entries found during the siege indicates they Grey Wardens didn't just jump to the big ritual.  They had their mages summon demons only a few at a time, over a week or two, maybe more.  We just have phenomenal timing to arrive at the climax, or they accelerated their plans when they knew the Inquisition was coming to stop them.

I know . Some of the dialogue though is jarring, especially around In Hushed Whispers, considering it makes it sound like Alexius arrived really recently. A lot of people seem too surprised still at his arrival when the IQ has been backing and forthing to Val Royeaux. In that time I would have expected more resignation in their lot.

It's more of an annoyance than anything else. DAO was the same way. DA2 annoyed me for much different reasons in that regard... Everything important happens within one year. Actually it feels more like a few weeks sometimes but. And I know, they could't do otherwise, but it makes my ears bleed every so often.

[Heimdall]

(nod) The thing is, why kill Samson, who wasn't at Therinfal and had as much to do with the failing there as Calpernia's with the Venatori. The implication in Emprise is that he's dead, so I have to wonder why she'd still be alive, if Corypheus is using what looks like the "you're the leader, your responsibility" theory.

*Shrug* Maybe he just likes her better.  She's a mage, she's a Tevinter.

 

Samson's only useful because of his resistance to the side effects of lyrium, when it comes down to it.

[vbibbi]

OK here is a challenge for those Pro-New PC advocates out there.  Without using the concept "I want a clean break from previous games" or bringing in arguments why you do not want to the Inquisitor to return as a PC (I've stated why I disregard the Missing Arm, the Budget, and the "One PC Per Game" arguments at this point, they are easy excuses and all can be gotten around in a number of ways to facilitate a returning Inquisitor PC) give us reasons and story elements why you want a new PC.  After all, arguing against something old does not innately support the benefits of having something new.

 

Because of some people giving these positives of what a New PC could bring to the story, I've found myself strongly on the dual PC crowd now (when I started I was hard core sole Inquisitor PC) and I do see the genuine merit of have a New PC (twice that level of merit if they come with the elusive "Insiders Perspective"). I know you guys have great reasons for this, I just wish you'd use them more.  So rather than harping on the same tired 3 default excuses as to why you don't want a Quizzy PC again, give us your best shot on what you simply want to see from a New PC!  What do you see as their story?  What do you want them to be? 

 

It's alot more fun to debate potentials after all!

There have been many more reasons than those three, and also you not accepting those three reasons doesn't mean that you've convinced everyone else that they're invalid.

 

As others have said, if we have the same PC, the history and relationships with returning characters will be the same, which is stale. Calpernia is a good example, as an Inquisitor couldn't reasonably have anything other than an antagonistic relationship with her, at best a wary tentative truce. A new PC can have any kind of relationship with her.

 

To me, having the Inky as protag in Tevinter translates into one PC background, regardless of our race. Because we will play at the southern Thedas outsider working for a shadow organization dedicated to stopping Solas. This is the same if we're Qunari, mage Trevelyan, Solas-romanced Lavellan, chose to disband or remain as the Divine's honor guard. The Inquisitor-as-PC has the same role imported into DA4, so it would be like Hawke all over again. New PC allows for much more freedom of storytelling, multiple backgrounds, new view of Thedas and the nations the game will take place in.

 

And your argument goes both ways: there are any number of ways for Bioware to get around the pro-Inquisitor PC arguments, as well. We just don't know enough at this point to make any reasonable assumptions.

 

I just want to see ONE plausible way that Solas would care about the new PC and not simply kill him for getting in the way. Or ONE plausible situation in which the new PC could care about redeeming Solas and not just killing him as some big bad. Every new-PC scenario I've read so far involves Solas being dumb or acting out of character.

How about an infinite number of reasons how a new PC could interact with Solas? We have no idea what the plot of the next game is going to be, so Bioware could make any number of ways for a new PC to establish a rapport with Solas (positive or negative) and have a reason to work against his plans. It is futile to provide concrete examples at this point, since we don't know what is going to happen in the next game, other than (most likely) Tevinter and Qunari and Solas' plots.

 

If you asked me five years ago how I could conceivably have a non-Hawke protagonist deal with Corypheus, I can guarantee I would not have said "OK so there's this peace conference we're at, but it asplodes and we get stuck with a piece of the Fade in our hand, and it turns out Corypheus was behind this except it turns out Solas was really behind it except Solas is really the Dread Wolf and has been plotting this since before DAO"

 

I've said something to this effect before but..

 

I like making a new character, I like making multiple characters and seeing how that changes the story. I like the fact that each dragon age game has a new/multiple new protagonists, I love getting new backgrounds, perspectives, story, companions, and relationships. That's pretty much why I want a new protagonist, its not that I have any problem with the inquisitor, it's just that the returning of any protagonist would cause me to miss out on some of the things I love about this franchise.

 

As for what I might want specifically for Dragon Age 4 : 

 

I want origins back, I want multiple different starting points that give my character a different identity, and show case a different part of Tevinter society. 

 

I want to see a slave rebellions and the Qun conquer more vint territory because these are things that could vastly effect my character because this is their home and these things will change that home.

 

I want to see Calpernia again. Not as an old rival but as a slave freedom fighter and potential companion. And I want to see Lace Harding because she would be a good way of connecting us to the Solas plotline (if indeed there's going to be any/much of that plotline in DA4) and because I just like her.

 

And someone posted a thread a little while ago suggesting all origins start in the same city, doing different things, but are all in the end forced to defend their city from a qunari siege, only to flee with the main plot hook character when the qun wins - I love this idea.

Yes.

 

I would like it if Calpernia is a separate political faction to Dorian's, and perhaps we could choose to side with one or the other, or she provides some side quest chains. I don't know if I'd want her to work with Dorian and Mae, or keep with her more conservative military methods for reforming Tevinter. I like the idea of several groups dedicated to reform but using different methods, and having different ideas of what those reforms would be like. It could set up a good moral choice of Calpernia's group being staunchly anti-slavery but pro-magocracy while Dorian's group is focused more on equal rights for all citizens, mage and non-mage, but not addressing slavery, or not to as much of an extent as Calpernia would.

 

No offense, but that all sounds terrible. The only one that sounds sort of tolerable is the second. The first and fourth just sounds like Dragon Age: Origins 2.0, and the third involves an absolutely terrible person being a companion and Bioware doing the whole "morally grey is good" thing. 

So you would rather than DAI:2 than DAO:2.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So you would rather than DAI:2 than DAO:2.

I would easily rather have a Dragon Age: Inquisition 2 than a Dragon Age: Origins 2.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Inquisitor was less my hero cos of Herald and other Orlais and Orlais Chantry bulls*t, and allies with companion what i never wanted since first games...especially Lelianna, Cullen and Cole....glad that we can deal with 2 of them forever

 

I never want those what happened and i am not find any sense to stop Solas to heal all elves and have their knoledge again...i just not want Solas to be in charge after fade will be destroyed and i will support Elgarnan rule

 

 

I would like to never see Orlais and Antiva content but not mind to kill Orlais peoples and their Chivaliers with survived Templars with Qunari...i am not have any deals with them other than killing them

 

In Tevinter i am sure not want to have connection with Maevaris and Dorian and i would never be their friend and kill them if i can

 

I want to play as elf mage and i would be a magister and try to have a only human and qunari slaves....i would deal with Qunari army

 

want to have blood magic and real sword for mages cos in Tevinter Archonts and other magisters use swords as elven mages do

 

 

In the end i would not stop fade destruction....i am not sure if we have this option but i am not want to stop this

[d1ta]

Dual protag may be the middle road, though..

I thought I've red somewhere about devs being interested about the idea but promises nothing about doing it (dont cite me on this one. Memory's kinda fuzzy)

I'd be okay with dual protagonist. But with huge chunk of the pie being given to the new guy.
Thought about Inqui as npc and it frightens me.

If Inqui returns, then I'd damn well will want to be in control of her dialogue wheels. No auto dialogue. Not ever. I don't want to see her in DA4 and thought, "who the bloody *bleep* is this person?"

But if we're stuck with 1 protag, then I prefer a new face with a whole new cast of 'crew members'.

Edit: sigh. Phone typing >_< you know how it is..

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I don't understand how people can say Calpernia is "too important" to be a companion...? Our companions always either start out as, or end up becoming, the movers and shakers of Thedas. 

[Ieldra]

I don't understand how people can say Calpernia is "too important" to be a companion...? Our companions always either start out as, or end up becoming, the movers and shakers of Thedas. 

While they're with us, they do nothing important in their own right. If Calpernia is some kind of leader in her own right, she can't be a companion or she'll have to stop doing important things in her own leadership role while she's with us, like the others. And I wouldn't like that.

[ottffsse]

While they're with us, they do nothing important in their own right. If Calpernia is some kind of leader in her own right, she can't be a companion or she'll have to stop doing important things in her own leadership role while she's with us, like the others. And I wouldn't like that.

Don't have an opinion one way or other other than both versions can be written. In a way she can be an interesting type of Vivienne replacement for instance as allying and helping the PC in da4 may look like a chance to her to get involved in important politics again in tevinter because after coryfish or Redcliffe the venetori probably lost some influence in tevinter anyways whatever they had.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

While they're with us, they do nothing important in their own right. If Calpernia is some kind of leader in her own right, she can't be a companion or she'll have to stop doing important things in her own leadership role while she's with us, like the others. And I wouldn't like that.

I don't know. Mass Effect 3 had a few of our companions doing important stuff while they were with us. Liara was operating as the Shadow Broker to help with the war effort, and Garrus and Tali were helping their peoples. 

[Iakus]

While they're with us, they do nothing important in their own right. If Calpernia is some kind of leader in her own right, she can't be a companion or she'll have to stop doing important things in her own leadership role while she's with us, like the others. And I wouldn't like that.

While that is true from a logical perspective, that isn't necessary the case as far as gameplay goes.

 

I mean, look at some of the companions in DAI:

 

Vivienne, who is a First Enchanter

Iron Bull, the leader of the Bull's Chargers

Cassandra, one of the leaders of the Inquisition, and the de facto head of its inner circle until the Inquisitor is formally named

Varric:  who is the head of his House as well as the owner of a variety of businesses, as well as a writer/publisher.  Oh, and he runs a little spy network on the side

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd rather not see her as a companion, I'm all for a clean cut.  But I don't think being "too important" would be a factor in whether this happens or not.