527 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

I agree that Bioware has played it safe in that regard, but perhaps they've finally understood that it's almost impossible to do a heroic sacrifice right in a crpg. The basic problem is this: a sacrifice is only valid if it's made freely, based on the player character's perception that something is worth giving their life for, and the player must never feel they're pushed into it by presenting a bad alternative. In fact, the only way I've ever seen this work even in tabletop rpgs is when the decision for the sacrifice was made spontaneously, without the GM setting you up for it. Because if you're set up for it, then this comes across as heavy-handed messaging, an anvil dropped on your head about the virtue of sacrifice, and everyone hates that.
 

 

I think they do sacrifice pretty well. It's characters who live in some dark manner that they don't do well. i.e. Like an evil Warden who did the ritual. Or a psycho Shep. It can be fun in the moment, but that story tends to fall flat, where there no consequences and questionable things get underused. Storywise, US Wardens are fleshed out better.

[darkway1]

No, since Solas/Fen'Harel isn't the hero nor the villain of the series. Thedas is. What you want is an extended expansion, not a new game. Solas' conflict has next to nothing to do with Tevinter, Qunari or Northern Thedas.

 Actually you are bang-on the button,the only way Bioware could continue the DAI story and maintain continuity (all your choices and game states) is to use the same DAI game,rip-out all old content (or build upon) and replace it with new,which technically would make it an expansion.....as an idea,it's do-able,relatively cheap when compared with creating a sequel from scratch and bypasses all the import/export problems.

[Ieldra]

DAI is my favorite game. I like the Inquisitor, but the writers need a really smart protagonist up against Solas or they risk making Solas look lame. They have spent several games and books telling us how clever the trickster was. Now you need a person to outwit him.

I agree....but has Bioware EVER done "smart" right? The best they've done so far is "not completely stupid", and the Inquisitor is actually rather well written in that regard. Not that this is reason enough to want her back.

[vbibbi]

I agree that Bioware has played it safe in that regard, but perhaps they've finally understood that it's almost impossible to do a heroic sacrifice right in a crpg. The basic problem is this: a sacrifice is only valid if it's made freely, based on the player character's perception that something is worth giving their life for, and the player must never feel they're pushed into it by presenting a bad alternative. In fact, the only way I've ever seen this work even in tabletop rpgs is when the decision for the sacrifice was made spontaneously, without the GM setting you up for it. Because if you're set up for it, then this comes across as heavy-handed messaging, an anvil dropped on your head about the virtue of sacrifice, and everyone hates that.

It might actually have worked in ME3 - you didn't have an alternative choice with no sacrifice, but you had three futures that overcame an existential threat, and it's quite plausible that most Shepards would consider at least one of them worth giving their life for, except that the Catalyst poisoned all three alternatives and invalidated the whole scenario.

Anyway, I think you're right and they were in a bind about what to do: It wouldn't be plausible for most Inquisitors to walk away from this problem after everything they've done before, so they couldn't simply make them go away like the Warden. On the other hand, they'd be too powerful if they stayed in the story with all their powers intact. If your reasoning is right, we won't see the Inquisitor as the PC again, and that would be good. I detest the depowering, but I can live with it if I'm not reminded of it by playing the Inquisitor again in the next game.


One can hope. I would need several aspects of my main Inquisitor to be respected if she appeared as an NPC and the topic comes up: She didn't believe in the Maker, she rejected her role as Andraste's Herald, she was pro-mage, and she told Solas she'd try to show him a better way.

Given some of the options in the Keep about whether we're friendly with Solas or not, romanced him or not, kept or disbanded inquisition, and our stance on stopping or redeeming Solas, I think those are the flags that will import into the next game and shape the relationship NPC Inquisitor has with Solas. Why would we need to record these attitudes and choices if we were just going to play as the character again and make our opinions known in-game? Bioware wouldn't need to capture our worldstate on these issues if we were going to play at the Inquisitor again and be able to voice the Inquisitor's stance on the issues.

[Ieldra]

Given some of the options in the Keep about whether we're friendly with Solas or not, romanced him or not, kept or disbanded inquisition, and our stance on stopping or redeeming Solas, I think those are the flags that will import into the next game and shape the relationship NPC Inquisitor has with Solas. Why would we need to record these attitudes and choices if we were just going to play as the character again and make our opinions known in-game? Bioware wouldn't need to capture our worldstate on these issues if we were going to play at the Inquisitor again and be able to voice the Inquisitor's stance on the issues.

Those flags are stored in case they need to be referenced in the Codex, by NPCs or by the protagonist's autodialogue, in any DA game they might want to make in future, not just the next one. They indicate nothing at all about who's going to be protagonist in the next game.

[vbibbi]

Those flags are stored in case they need to be referenced in the Codex, by NPCs or by the protagonist's autodialogue, in any DA game they might want to make in future, not just the next one. They indicate nothing at all about who's going to be protagonist in the next game.

My point is that they would use these flags to determine how an NPC Inquisitor will act in the next game. So we have sufficient information stored in the Keep to (hopefully) keep each player's Inquisitor faithful to how they played DAI. It's more in depth than the three personalities of Hawke recorded in the keep, which did not seem to actually change that much of his/her dialogue in DAI.

[Wren]

I'm torn on this issue.  

I feel very strongly that Trespasser left more loose ends than closures and I would like to see these resolved, however, I just don't see how being the Inquisitor again with all of his/her associated baggage will work out for brand new players to the franchise.

It could be potentially alienating, which would be a shame.

I really, really wish BW would just release a few more DLCs for Inquisition and then be done with it.

In my opinion, the only other reasonable option will be dual protagonists, which I generally do not enjoy.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Given some of the options in the Keep about whether we're friendly with Solas or not, romanced him or not, kept or disbanded inquisition, and our stance on stopping or redeeming Solas, I think those are the flags that will import into the next game and shape the relationship NPC Inquisitor has with Solas. Why would we need to record these attitudes and choices if we were just going to play as the character again and make our opinions known in-game? Bioware wouldn't need to capture our worldstate on these issues if we were going to play at the Inquisitor again and be able to voice the Inquisitor's stance on the issues.

They tried that with Hawke. Did not turn out well at all. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

It wasn't quite as difficult for ME2 since it was the second of a trilogy, and I think the starting comic did a good job of catching the new player up to speed. But if DA is not advertised as a sequential game series, they can't assume people who purchase DA4 will be longtime fans. That's part of the issue with DA2, where people expected the Warden to return at the PC, or for the game to be very similar to its predecessor. I don't think Bioware is going to ever make that false advertising mistake again and lead buyers to believe the game is a direct sequel.

Well if the comic was acceptable to catch people up with, then the Keep with its choice tiles and video narration is, too, really. Also, the Genesis interactive comic was DLC you had to purchase. The Keep would be free, making it more accessible, in theory.

 

The start of ME2 was terrible too.

 

Hilarious actually. It grew on me. Jacob and his lines. "The best scientists money could buy".

 

Ah, I see.. Jacob. Resurrection isn't a big deal. The best scientists. Gotcha.

 

But it grew on me as the game moved on. Loved the characters. And the hodgepodge nature of the group fit that better than Inquisition trying to touch all bases.

TIM and Miranda's narration, the opening cinematics with Joker, Shepard, et. al.  before/during/after the Collector attack, the Miranda narration as you saw the implants implanted, the fight through the base explaining combat, and the questions on the shuttle to TIM regarding the major basic choices of ME1 and discussing them to give them context for newbies-- the ME2 starting hour or two did a great job introducing people to the ME universe's setting, interface, and combat mechanics. It also provided exciting action and engaged the player into the story. The only thing it didn't have was aliens straight off the bat, but that was what Freedom's Progress/Omega was for. And I think that pacing worked out well, too. 

 

The fact that you might think "resurrection from the dead is just a matter of cost" is silly, while a valid opinion, wasn't my point when I mentioned ME2.

[AresKeith]

They tried that with Hawke. Did not turn out well at all. 

 

And it's called improving on past mistakes 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And it's called improving on past mistakes 

I do not have faith they will. I have seen nothing to suggest they will get the Inquisitor, who is even harder to emulate than Hawke, portrayed in a way that it will still seem like our character. They only had to do a few things with Hawke and they didn't get a single one right. 

[AresKeith]

I do not have faith they will. I have seen nothing to suggest they will get the Inquisitor, who is even harder to emulate than Hawke, portrayed in a way that it will still seem like our character. They only had to do a few things with Hawke and they didn't get a single one right. 

 

 

Subjective

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

Given some of the options in the Keep about whether we're friendly with Solas or not, romanced him or not, kept or disbanded inquisition, and our stance on stopping or redeeming Solas, I think those are the flags that will import into the next game and shape the relationship NPC Inquisitor has with Solas. Why would we need to record these attitudes and choices if we were just going to play as the character again and make our opinions known in-game? Bioware wouldn't need to capture our worldstate on these issues if we were going to play at the Inquisitor again and be able to voice the Inquisitor's stance on the issues.

They'd still need them to flag how Solas and other NPCs react to our Inquisitor PC. Unless they had, say, Dorian start his first convo on the subject with "Oh, yes, Solas... How did you feel about him again? I've forgotten."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

Subjective

 

Fair enough. I'm sure the set Bioware chose matched some player's Hawkes. But that is irrelevant since unless it matches all variants then as a system it is a failure. And that is objective. 

[AresKeith]

Fair enough. I'm sure the set Bioware chose matched some player's Hawkes. But that is irrelevant since unless it matches all variants then as a system it is a failure. And that is objective. 

 

Which will always be the case when some people try something new, that doesn't mean they should automatically stop trying or improving just because some didn't like it 

[NoForgiveness]

I'm torn on this issue.
I feel very strongly that Trespasser left more loose ends than closures and I would like to see these resolved, however, I just don't see how being the Inquisitor again with all of his/her associated baggage will work out for brand new players to the franchise.
It could be potentially alienating, which would be a shame.

Nah. I don't think it'd be too bad. Plenty of games carry a single protag through multiple games. Villains too. ME3 is a pretty good example. I never saw new players having any issue with that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which will always be the case when some people try something new, that doesn't mean they should automatically stop trying or improving just because some didn't like it 

When it involves player characters not being how the players played them, yes it does. What they did with Hawke in DAI is one of the worst ideas they have ever had. 

 

 

Nah. I don't think it'd be too bad. Plenty of games carry a single protag through multiple games. Villains too. ME3 is a pretty good example. I never saw new players having any issue with that.

According to Bioware ME3 was the perfect place to jump into the series as a new player.

[AresKeith]

When it involves player characters not being how the players played them, yes it does. What they did with Hawke in DAI is one of the worst ideas they have ever had. 

 

And I disagree with that, it wasn't a terrible idea but it was a poorly executed idea

[vbibbi]

 

Well if the comic was acceptable to catch people up with, then the Keep with its choice tiles and video narration is, too, really. Also, the Genesis interactive comic was DLC you had to purchase. The Keep would be free, making it more accessible, in theory.

 

Eh? I think the comic must have been free in some editions and not in others then. It was free for my PS3, but maybe that's because ME1 didn't come out for PS at that time. Yes, you're right that the Keep can serve that same purpose. Ideally, DA4 should draw more attention to it, because it seems like if I hadn't been following news of the Keep and DAI's launch, it would have been very easy for me to skip the import process entirely when starting DAI. It isn't very intuitive when starting a new game if we didn't have meta knowledge of the online system.

 

 

 

They'd still need them to flag how Solas and other NPCs react to our Inquisitor PC. Unless they had, say, Dorian start his first convo on the subject with "Oh, yes, Solas... How did you feel about him again? I've forgotten."

 

Again, eh? The Keep records if we're friends or not with all of the companions. And Trespasser has options for whether we vowed to redeem or kill/stop Solas. What else is required to get an accurate picture?

[vbibbi]

 

And I disagree with that, it wasn't a terrible idea but it was a poorly executed idea

 

Agreed, not a terrible idea but not done well. I think if Hawke had been done well and fans had received them well, it could have been a notable achievement of the game. It would have been (one of?) the first times a game allows us to import and customize a previous protagonist and have them as an interactive NPC. As it is, Hawke's appearance was more of a letdown for most fans.

[AresKeith]

Agreed, not a terrible idea but not done well. I think if Hawke had been done well and fans had received them well, it could have been a notable achievement of the game. It would have been (one of?) the first times a game allows us to import and customize a previous protagonist and have them as an interactive NPC. As it is, Hawke's appearance was more of a letdown for most fans.

 

With characters like Hawke they can work as NPCs, but when it comes to people like the Warden or the Inquisitor it can become tricky to where the player probably should have control over that

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again, eh? The Keep records if we're friends or not with all of the companions. And Trespasser has options for whether we vowed to redeem or kill/stop Solas. What else is required to get an accurate picture?

The Keep records us being friends with Merrill thus supporting her use of blood magic, and yet come DAI Hawke rants constantly about how all blood magic and blood mages are bad. So clearly a lot more than friendship and support/not support is needed for an accurate picture. 

[AresKeith]

The Keep records us being friends with Merrill thus supporting her use of blood magic, and yet come DAI Hawke rants constantly about how all blood magic and blood mages are bad. So clearly a lot more than friendship and support/not support is needed for an accurate picture. 

 

I didn't see it that way, I saw Hawke ranting about how people always try to find stupid justifications to use blood magic in a harmful way

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Again, eh? The Keep records if we're friends or not with all of the companions. And Trespasser has options for whether we vowed to redeem or kill/stop Solas. What else is required to get an accurate picture?

I was responding to your saying that the Keep was recording those so that it could handle the Inquisitor as an NPC and pointing out that the Keep recording those things could also just mean that they need them for NPC interaction with an Inquisitor player character. You seemed to be saying earlier that the Keep recording those decisions as plot flags would only be necessary for a situation in which the Inquisitor was not the PC. I was refuting that. Did I misunderstand you?

[Vaseldwa]

People have listed a lot of reasons why they want the Inquisitor to be the protagonist in the next DA game. Here, I'm going to list the reasons why I do NOT want that. Basically, it comes down to this: the Inquisitor carries too much ballast around to work for me as a new protagonist. Here is why:
 
(1) A clean cut with Southern Thedas
I'm sick of southern Thedas and its problems. I'm sick of the Circles, the Orlesian Chantry, mages vs. templars and Orlesian Andrastianism. I was looking forward to playing in Tevinter, playing a native Tevinter citizen, encountering new people from there and immersing myself into a new culture. I want to leave southern Thedas behind as far as possible, and playing as the Ex-Inquisitor would be like a heavy chain binding me to everything I want to leave behind,
 
(2) Trespasser's ending makes for a lot of ballast I don't want.
I was happy after the ending of the game, before Trespasser. I like my Inquisitors, but I was quite happy to leave them behind as leaders of the Inquisition. It was the first ending of a Bioware game that I found unreservedly satisfying since DAO. Then came Trespasser and ruined everything, and now I'm considerably less happy. I'm quite prepared to start as a character with a low power level in DA4, but for an old protagonist to be hammered down, taking away everything they have gained and more, in order to make them feasible, that would be like a slap in the face by the writers. I do not like to be slapped in the face, and I'd rather not start the next DA game being angry. I'd rather start with the kind of pleasant anticipation I had with DAI. Playing the Ex-Inquisitor would make that impossible.
 
(3) Trespasser has weakened my connection to the Inquisitor
People have said Trespasser made the Inquisitor more relatable. This term may be important to a story you watch and read, but less to a roleplaying game. I guess some people experience Bioware's games as more of stories they watch than shape, and perhaps with some justification. I'm a roleplayer, however. I do not "relate" to my character, I automatically have a much closer connection to them than that, and I'm automatically invested in them as long as the writers don't put words into their mouths I would never have them say, or make them do things I'd never make them do. That almost never happened in DAI, and so my Inquisitor has been, right from the start, one of three Bioware protagonists I could connect to with no problem at all (the others are the Bhaalspawn and the Warden). Bioware's writers are the GM to me.
Now imagine if in a tabletop RPG campaign, your GM did to your character what was done to the Inquisitor with no input at all from you. I don't know about others, but in that situation, I consider it very likely I'd say "Not with me, I'll make a new character". In that way, Trespasser made the Inquisitor less my character - and thus less "relatable" as the protagonist of a game - than she had been before, and it would be an uphill battle to remake the connection. Again, I'd rather start the game without that kind of ballast.
 
So...I do NOT want the Ex-Inquisitor to be DA4's protagonist. I'm not saything such a setup couldn't be a success, but I rather suspect that Bioware's writers won't do any of the things that would make it palatable to me.

 

I agree. I am ready to leave the south and start over with someone new, that is actually from the north. Trespasser for me was enjoyable but I really don't want to be my inquisitor again. But like someone said, I am pretty sure we will be someone new. I am really hoping to start from different places in the north depending on race you choose and maybe even what class we choose. I know that's asking ALOT but I think it would be really cool. 

Modifié par DwarvaVashoth, 21 octobre 2015 - 08:05 .