75 réponses à ce sujet

[arelenriel]

What is important is not so much the Theirin line but the blood of Calenhad the founding father as it were of modern Fereldan- there is one other family with direct ancestry from that bloodline- the Couslands - one main reason other than petty jealousy and greed why Loghain's ally Howe targeted the family.. Fergus survives no matter what world state you have (e.g, Cousland warden or non-Cousland warden)-- he is not tainted- it can be assumed he eventually remarries after a proper grieving period for his parents, sibling, wife, and son- and has an heir. Fereldan's view having the blood of Calenhad as being the deciding factor on whether one can sit on the throne not being a Theirin- if you listen to a Cousland Warden they will say that their father could have (and probably should have) been made King by the Landsmeet when Maric disappeared. The Theirin's are merely the most well-known family with the blood of Calenhad- but any family that either they or the Cousland's married into would also have that blood.

 

As per Kieran if Alistair is the father it is highly likely he will be disqualified- his mother his a mage- his grandmother is a mage and Elvhen goddess (and considered by some to be an abomination), and his paternal grandmother is a mage- he is also possessed by the Spirit of an Old God- meaning Kieran will probably be a mage- disqualifying him from any position of power, holding any lands, or any titles anywhere outside of Tevinter.

 

With Anora -- it is not necessarily the case that she was infertile- it could have been Cailan that was infertile especially due to variables such as STD's or inbreeding amongst the nobility of Fereldan. So it might not be Anora and she may be perfectly capable of producing an Heir with Alistair who may be tainted but unless he courted the female warden has never actually had sex before because he was a good little Templar trainee who had never licked a lampost in winter

[Darkly Tranquil]

But there is the whole thing about the writers going crazy if they have to maintain too many world states. It would probably be good to avoid that.

Given that Origins was not guaranteed to get a sequel, I think they offered more story paths than they might otherwise have done. Alistair, for instance, has like about 8 possible fates if you include Inquisition (King with Warden Queen, King with Anora, King alone, Warden alive, drunk, dead at Landsmeet, dead killing Archdaemon, dead/lost in the Fade). Since then, they have pared back the range of fates for characters and thus limited the number of potential world states, so it seems like they learned their lesson from Origins. The downside is that we as players get less options and variations in how our stories can end. I highly doubt we will ever get another game with as many story permutations as we did with Origins.

[berelinde]

Given that Origins was not guaranteed to get a sequel, I think they offered more story paths than they might otherwise have done. Alistair, for instance, has like about 8 possible fates if you include Inquisition (King with Warden Queen, King with Anora, King alone, Warden alive, drunk, dead at Landsmeet, dead killing Archdaemon, dead/lost in the Fade). Since then, they have pared back the range of fates for characters and thus limited the number of potential world states, so it seems like they learned their lesson from Origins. The downside is that we as players get less options and variations in how our stories can end. I highly doubt we will ever get another game with as many story permutations as we did with Origins.

Yeah, I think that's what happened. They didn't quite anticipate that the franchise would be as successful as it was, and now they've got a lot of cats to herd.

 

I guess the moral of the story is that we need to accept that they're never going to be able to please everyone.

[Andraste_Reborn]

What kind of consequences would you like to see? What would make it seem more meaningful?

 

Honestly, I'd have been satisfied with Alistair explicitly marrying someone else in world states where he's not married to the Warden or Anora. That would at least show a meaningful departure from a Queen Cousland world state and indicate that he's trying to produce an heir. Beyond that, a codex entry letter from Arl Eamon pressuring him about having a child - with variations depending on who his spouse was - would have been a neat callback to DAO.  (Sure, we're never in Denerim, where one assumes King Alistair's correspondence goes. But the condex is full of documents that we found in all sorts of weird places!)

 

This is actually one of the few choices from previous games that I don't think has sufficient follow-up. 'There's no heir to the throne of Ferelden' is something I can accept  but 'there's no heir to the throne and nobody seems upset about this after all we went through in DAO' really isn't.

[Hydwn]

Except that he really, really hates Witches of the Wilds and anything/anyone related with them, he would never let Kieran take the throne if he knows he is Morrigan's son.

 

I guess we have different interpretations of Alistair, then.  To me, it would seem off-character for him to reject a son because he was also Morrigan's.  Even a hardened Alistair seems too nice for that.

 

It would be a harder sell to the Bannorn because of the age-old anti-mage prejudice.  But Alistair could be vague about those details.

[Andromelek]

Given that Origins was not guaranteed to get a sequel, I think they offered more story paths than they might otherwise have done. Alistair, for instance, has like about 8 possible fates if you include Inquisition (King with Warden Queen, King with Anora, King alone, Warden alive, drunk, dead at Landsmeet, dead killing Archdaemon, dead/lost in the Fade). Since then, they have pared back the range of fates for characters and thus limited the number of potential world states, so it seems like they learned their lesson from Origins. The downside is that we as players get less options and variations in how our stories can end. I highly doubt we will ever get another game with as many story permutations as we did with Origins.

Time still running and we already knew since Origins that he is pretty much dead man due the taint, it won't take any longer to definitely kill off remaining Alistairs, though, for how treacherous the character turned to be, I really hope the find a more painful way to die to King Alistair.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Time still running and we already knew since Origins that he is pretty much dead man due the taint, it won't take any longer to definitely kill off remaining Alistairs, though, for how treacherous the character turned to be, I really hope the find a more painful way to die to King Alistair.

[Hydwn]

I don't think he becomes tranquil, he just becomes a "normal" child. Flemeth took something which was in addition to himself, not what was originally part of him.

 

 

And I doubt the bannorn would simply accept some random child showing up and claiming to be Alistair's son. Alistair was recognized as an illegitimate son because Maric had entrusted his identity to Eamon. We only have the word of Alistair that Kieran is his son (even though we as players know the truth)

 

I think you're right that he wouldn't be tranquil - I threw that in as a possibility I had seen elesewhere.  The question for me is more whether he would still be a mage (assuming he was before).

 

As for Kieran's legitimacy, it would depend on whether Alistair claimed him or not.  Alistair's was in doubt because Maric had never said a thing.  I'd be surprised if the Bannorn rejected alistair's word on that.

[vbibbi]

What is important is not so much the Theirin line but the blood of Calenhad the founding father as it were of modern Fereldan- there is one other family with direct ancestry from that bloodline- the Couslands - one main reason other than petty jealousy and greed why Loghain's ally Howe targeted the family.. Fergus survives no matter what world state you have (e.g, Cousland warden or non-Cousland warden)-- he is not tainted- it can be assumed he eventually remarries after a proper grieving period for his parents, sibling, wife, and son- and has an heir. Fereldan's view having the blood of Calenhad as being the deciding factor on whether one can sit on the throne not being a Theirin- if you listen to a Cousland Warden they will say that their father could have (and probably should have) been made King by the Landsmeet when Maric disappeared. The Theirin's are merely the most well-known family with the blood of Calenhad- but any family that either they or the Cousland's married into would also have that blood.

 

As per Kieran if Alistair is the father it is highly likely he will be disqualified- his mother his a mage- his grandmother is a mage and Elvhen goddess (and considered by some to be an abomination), and his paternal grandmother is a mage- he is also possessed by the Spirit of an Old God- meaning Kieran will probably be a mage- disqualifying him from any position of power, holding any lands, or any titles anywhere outside of Tevinter.

 

With Anora -- it is not necessarily the case that she was infertile- it could have been Cailan that was infertile especially due to variables such as STD's or inbreeding amongst the nobility of Fereldan. So it might not be Anora and she may be perfectly capable of producing an Heir with Alistair who may be tainted but unless he courted the female warden has never actually had sex before because he was a good little Templar trainee who had never licked a lampost in winter

I forgot that the Couslands are also descendants of Calenhad. This seems like the most likely scenario for the future of Fereldan's monarchy...Fergus or his heirs will be the next rulers after Alistair and/or Anora pass away.

[Andromelek]

I guess we have different interpretations of Alistair, then. To me, it would seem off-character for him to reject a son because he was also Morrigan's. Even a hardened Alistair seems too nice for that.

It would be a harder sell to the Bannorn because of the age-old anti-mage prejudice. But Alistair could be vague about those details.

His assessment of Kieran is that he would be a monster, only GW Alistair has the chance to meet the kid, King Alistair would likely find a grown up Kieran that has enough traits learned from his mother to despise him, distrust him, and ultimately deny him as heir.

[TK514]

I expect them to ignore anything from previous games that gets in the way of the story they want to tell, just as they've been doing all along (many of the DA:O epilogues are examples of this).

If, however, we go by current information, I think the Theirin bloodline will die out and the Landsmeet will elect a new ruling line (my money is on the Couslands). If they need a Theirin for the dragon blood thing (I'm not holding my breath), then some long lost cadet branch can be discovered.

[vbibbi]

I think you're right that he wouldn't be tranquil - I threw that in as a possibility I had seen elesewhere.  The question for me is more whether he would still be a mage (assuming he was before).

 

As for Kieran's legitimacy, it would depend on whether Alistair claimed him or not.  Alistair's was in doubt because Maric had never said a thing.  I'd be surprised if the Bannorn rejected alistair's word on that.

Ah, gotcha. There really isn't enough in game information to make an accurate guess. My personal opinion is that what makes an individual a mage or not is inherent to themselves, so if Kieran was a mage regardless of Old God soul, then he would remain one after Flemeth takes it. And if he wasn't, any special powers he had with the OGS would leave with it.

 

Do we know if he even has magical abilities as the OGB? To me, it seems more like he has mystical knowledge and sees the world in a different way. Nowhere does it indicate that he has the ability to use magic.

 

 

For his legitimacy, even if Alistair acknowledges him, I think Loghain's civil war has shown that the bannorn is of divided opinions on political topics, so I'm not sure it would be as easy as Alistair's word for it. Maybe the Circle has some form of paternity test, though. It raises an interesting question about mages not inheriting titles, but would their non-mage descendants be able to? Or once the title is removed from one family branch, all heirs are similarly excluded? I don't have the Nobility Knowledge perk so I'm not sure! /nerd joke

[vbibbi]

I expect them to ignore anything from previous games that gets in the way of the story they want to tell, just as they've been doing all along (many of the DA:O epilogues are examples of this).

If, however, we go by current information, I think the Theirin bloodline will die out and the Landsmeet will elect a new ruling line (my money is on the Couslands). If they need a Theirin for the dragon blood thing (I'm not holding my breath), then some long lost cadet branch can be discovered.

This is going too deep into headcanon, but the Couslands could even try and recruit a Witch of the Wilds to infuse them with dragon's blood, if they needed that extra mystical oomph to win over the Landsmeet. This would also allow Yavana or her replacement to attempt to awaken the great dragons again.

[Hydwn]

His assessment of Kieran is that he would be a monster, only GW Alistair has the chance to meet the kid, King Alistair would likely find a grown up Kieran that has enough traits learned from his mother to despise him, distrust him, and ultimately deny him as heir.

 

The thing is, having Kieran seems to soften Morrigan a great deal - her dialogue is kinder if she's had him - and he's a polite little kid.  GW Alistair does not seem to hate him, and I suspect King Alistair would not either.

 

It's all speculation - and we have to take a very specific path of choices to get to this one option where there is a potential Theirin heir - but I have a hard time imagining Alistair being so dismissive of his own child, at least as soon as he sees that Kieran has no scales or horns.  It would seem too out of character.

 

(Anora's reaction, on the other hand...)

 

On the Doylian level, my first reaction would be that they probably wouldn't plan assets and dialogue for so specific a path, but thinking about it if we're in the north, they wouldn't have to show us the heir.  It could simply be mentioned in one of those variable codices they use.  A text dump difference of a few words requires almost nothing at all.

 

The question remains, though, does alistair have an heir we haven't heard of in a non-Kieran Theirin universe?  Will he have?  And if not, who's next in line for a non-Theirin heir?

[Iakus]

"Is Kieran... special?"

Well, he plays a mean banjo...

[Andromelek]

The thing is, having Kieran seems to soften Morrigan a great deal - her dialogue is kinder if she's had him - and he's a polite little kid.  GW Alistair does not seem to hate him, and I suspect King Alistair would not either.
 
It's all speculation - and we have to take a very specific path of choices to get to this one option where there is a potential Theirin heir - but I have a hard time imagining Alistair being so dismissive of his own child, at least as soon as he sees that Kieran has no scales or horns.  It would seem too out of character.

I don't think would be out of character, child Kieran was what GW Alistair saw, King Alistair didn't see him on at least twelve years, he would find a teenager or a young adult not the kid, he may not have scales and horns; but no one on his mother's family has them either (not natural at least) and yet Alistair attach them to overhuman/ monstrous abilities like not sleeping, not having feelings, being creepy, having a superhuman intelligence and somehow that they are always conspiring against him, being kind worth nothing because the one on that family that tried to be more kind at him was ironically the one that was killed by him, Kieran being his son could avoid that fate and even diminish his hate but I doubt he would trust him the crown after being raised by Morrigan

[berelinde]

 If they need a Theirin for the dragon blood thing (I'm not holding my breath), then some long lost cadet branch can be discovered.

We know next to nothing about Moira's history. (Maric's mother, I think that was her name.) While she seems to have been an only child, that doesn't rule out the possibility of illegitimate half-siblings. Nor do we have any guarantee that Alistair was the only child Maric fathered after Rowan's death. Who knows how many figurative Jon Snows there could be lurking about?

[riverbanks]

The thing is, having Kieran seems to soften Morrigan a great deal - her dialogue is kinder if she's had him - and he's a polite little kid.  GW Alistair does not seem to hate him, and I suspect King Alistair would not either.

 

It's all speculation - and we have to take a very specific path of choices to get to this one option where there is a potential Theirin heir - but I have a hard time imagining Alistair being so dismissive of his own child, at least as soon as he sees that Kieran has no scales or horns.  It would seem too out of character.

 

Haven't seen this brought up on the thread (eta: actually it was brought up earlier, sorry!), but... another issue with Kieran having any relevance as heir to Alistair is that Alistair isn't the only parent he (maybe) has. Morrigan is the one raising Kieran, and she's made it vehemently clear that she does not want him involved in politicking. If she had a mind to make Kieran a contender for the throne, she had the perfect opportunity to raise him inside the Orlesian court, learning all the secrets of the trade, but instead she's shielded him from all that and kept him as far removed from politics and nobility games as she can.

 

She's been raising Kieran for a completely different life, teaching him the principles of protecting and preserving the old magics, etc, not how to eat with the right fork at fancy dinner parties or how to rule kingdoms and inspire courage in the hearts of armies, you know? Even if Alistair wanted to make Kieran his heir, I have a hard time picturing Morrigan ever agreeing to that.

[Silcron]

"Is Kieran... special?"

The timing on that quote was perfect. Also you almost made me burst out laughing while the teacher was right in front of me. You are evil...and get a like.

[WardenElissa]

I never expected this thread to be so popular and prompt such interesting discussion! Thank you all so much.

 

I think I agree with the points many of you have raised, although it makes me very sad that, despite my Warden choosing not to marry Alistair for the sole purpose of him continuing the line of King Calenhad, the writers may prevent him from reproducing just to simplify the narrative from having too many different outcomes.

 

I am still hopeful when it comes to Kieran though. If Kieran is Alistair's son, I would be very excited to learn that he gets a shot a Ferelden's throne in the future, assuming Alistair has no children of his own. Or, perhaps even more interesting, if Kieran is in competition with Alistair's heirs for the throne! The bastard prince riding into the kingdom, long forgotten, to contest the throne of Ferelden. It sounds almost romantic. 

 

 

What is important is not so much the Theirin line but the blood of Calenhad the founding father as it were of modern Fereldan- there is one other family with direct ancestry from that bloodline- the Couslands - one main reason other than petty jealousy and greed why Loghain's ally Howe targeted the family.. Fergus survives no matter what world state you have (e.g, Cousland warden or non-Cousland warden)-- he is not tainted- it can be assumed he eventually remarries after a proper grieving period for his parents, sibling, wife, and son- and has an heir. Fereldan's view having the blood of Calenhad as being the deciding factor on whether one can sit on the throne not being a Theirin- if you listen to a Cousland Warden they will say that their father could have (and probably should have) been made King by the Landsmeet when Maric disappeared. The Theirin's are merely the most well-known family with the blood of Calenhad- but any family that either they or the Cousland's married into would also have that blood.

 

As per Kieran if Alistair is the father it is highly likely he will be disqualified- his mother his a mage- his grandmother is a mage and Elvhen goddess (and considered by some to be an abomination), and his paternal grandmother is a mage- he is also possessed by the Spirit of an Old God- meaning Kieran will probably be a mage- disqualifying him from any position of power, holding any lands, or any titles anywhere outside of Tevinter.

 

With Anora -- it is not necessarily the case that she was infertile- it could have been Cailan that was infertile especially due to variables such as STD's or inbreeding amongst the nobility of Fereldan. So it might not be Anora and she may be perfectly capable of producing an Heir with Alistair who may be tainted but unless he courted the female warden has never actually had sex before because he was a good little Templar trainee who had never licked a lampost in winter

 

I was not aware that Couslands also had Theirin blood in them - are you sure about that? I researched and read a lot on the wiki and I didn't see anything about it, but I would be very pleasantly surprised if it were true. At least then there would be some hope for Calenhad's bloodline not resting soley on Alistair's shoulders.

[thats1evildude]

Alistair doesn't have a queen if not married to Anora, but how do we know he doesn't have a mistress? That's a possible outcome for the Warden, and it's not like that topic would arise during any conversation you have with King Alistair.

[berelinde]

Alistair doesn't have a queen if not married to Anora, but how do we know he doesn't have a mistress? That's a possible outcome for the Warden, and it's not like that topic would arise during any conversation you have with King Alistair.

King Alistair may indeed have a mistress if the Hero of Ferelden hardened him and is persuasive enough during Landsmeet. But a Grey Warden mistress isn't any more likely to produce children than a Grey Warden queen would be.

 

(I hate how everyone pretends this decision doesn't exist. Even the writers.)

 

If the Hero of Ferelden was male or otherwise didn't romance Alistair, but made him king with or without a marriage to Anora, there's nothing to say that Alistair wouldn't have a mistress, but he's still a Warden. The odds of him having a child without fertility magic are low.

[Nixou]

The writers have an imperative even more compelling than the desire to please a portion of their fanbase: they have to keep the game universe viable, and that means limiting the number of variables in the canon worldstate.

 

 

Right now there's already two possible variations: either Alistair is childless or he has a hidden bastard: that's one variation too many, and the writers won't want to deal with a "But what about Kieran?" chorus.

 

So either the crown will go to Fergus, which would have the advantage of being simpler, but the disadvantage of keeping a potential Theirin heir in the narrative limbo, or the writers will go the extra miles and introduce a legitimate prince: either Anora will give birth in her forties or Alistair will find a consort (kinda like how Chrom marries a faceless NPC in Fire Emblem if he's not paired with any potential Love Interest) or take a de facto concubine if he married the already infertile Cousland HoF or the two infertile Wardens will succeed in producing a child despite the very low odds: the disadvantage here is that it creates a lot of variations about how the heir was conceived, the advantage being that the many paths all lead to the same outcome: a kid with the surname Theirin will inherit the Throne in every world state.

 

***

 

My thinking was this: The Ferelden Wardens are off searching for a cure for the taint during Inquisition [...] No idea about having a deceased HoF.

 

 

My guess is that the Orlesian Warden's command didn't differ from the surviving HoF and that whoever was in charge of the Fereldan Wardens went on that silly Offscreen Quest in every possible world state variation.

 

***

 

Is it even confirmed that Kieran is mage?

 

 

Magic is an hereditary trait: Kieran always have Morrigan has his mother and may have another powerful mage as his father or paternal grandmother depending on who did the ritual. It's a fairly safe guess to assume that he's at least a latent mage.

 

***

 

They didn't quite anticipate that the franchise would be as successful as it was, and now they've got a lot of cats to herd.

 

 

Actually they did: even in the earliest, pre-Origins-release interviews they were mentioning their desire to turn Dragon Age into a franchise: they weren't certain that it would succeed (hence the design and story choices that now haunt them), by they were betting on it from the very start.

 

***

 

It raises an interesting question about mages not inheriting titles

 

 

I already heavily suspect that Alistair's proficiency as a templar is an idiosyncratic manifestation of his magic gift: Ferelden may have elected a mage as their sovereign without even realizing it.

 

***

 

(I hate how everyone pretends this decision doesn't exist. Even the writers.)

 

 

 

My personal interpretation is that no one mentions it in universe because everyone's walking on eggs, careful to avoid accidentally provoking either Anora's or the Warden's (or Maker forbid: both women's) wrath.

Modifié par Nixou, 22 octobre 2015 - 07:13 .

[vbibbi]

 

Magic is an hereditary trait: Kieran always have Morrigan has his mother and may have another powerful mage as his father or paternal grandmother depending on who did the ritual. It's a fairly safe guess to assume that he's at least a latent mage.
 

I don't think it's a safe assumption. Felix is not a mage but his father was a magister and his mother was also a mage. And neither Eamon nor Isolde are mages but Connor is, and in the retconned DAO epilogues, if Connor died in the game, they have another child who also shows signs of magic.

[stop_him]

Because he didn't find someone he loved, obviously. He's a romantic. Also, he probably didn't have time.

Ugh, yet he will dump any mage/non human if made king. Love doesn't much matter to him at that point IMO since his "duty" clearly matters more to him. "King Douchebag" is more like it. Hence why Alistair is never king in my canon. 

 

Anyway, OP, we don't actually know that Alistair is "fertile" since I think the dark ritual worked because it was a dark ritual. I'd like to think that the Maker cursed Alistair with infertility for being King Colossal Douchbag to romanced mage/non human ladies.