41 réponses à ce sujet

[geth47]

AlanC9, thats why I think story and gameplay should be entirely divorced concepts. For a N7 soldier, Shepard not only starts with no talents, but with totally crappy equipment. Any small-time crook he will come across will have much better weapons, armors and mods than he does.

 

If one wants to do it in a more realistic way, its better to play on PC, use console commands in order to give you good equipment, jump to level 60 and play the game in one of the 2 hardest settings.  Also, the inventory system is a complete pain. Nowadays I just play eden prime, and as soon as Im back on-board with access to the seller I replace all the gear for all the characters and just wait for everyone else to join in order to distribute the equipment I just got via console commands. So during the whole game I just need to adjust the inventory a few times. Most of the times I only make small changes like installing a gps on talis suit to guide the mako, special grenades  against the infected colonists, special ammo types when I know I will be facing large numbers of geth unities and so on. 

 

In mass effect 2, however, it kinda makes sense that shepard starts weak. He died, and remained immobile in a comma for over 2 years. So its expected of him to feel rusty from the lack of practice. He wasnt fully recovered when awakened. I was once confined to a bed for a few weeks and had problems WALKING when I got better. Shepard was sedentary for 2 years, awoke all of sudden, and was able to dodge enemy fire, wear heavy armor and RUN with a grenade luncher on his back. 

 

 

 

"Unique? I thought action-RPGs were a thing. Plus, Jade Empire."

 

Right. But in the typical action-rpgs you usually play with swords. And its not like you will hit or miss based on points, but solely based on your abilities as a player. You can have a faster sword, or a sword or dagger that causes more damage or is poisoned, but the weapon in itself does not make you a better player. Soul Calibur 2 allows you to choose weapons. There are even some joke weapons. This is a typical rpg option, but it doesnt turn the game into a rpg. 

 

In ME1s case, its a game in which you manually shoot but that is actually governed by a rpg mechanic rather than shooter one. In 2 and 3 is a genuine shooter system. 

"I'm also not clear on how a power-focused style is any more of an action game than, say, NWN2 is. You've got abilities determined by your class and level. Reflexes don't seem to come into it -- most of the SP vids I've seen show people pausing to u leash powers."

 

Yeah, pause is a (nice) option, but not a requirement. The MP is a true testament to the fact that the game can be played without ever pausing. But there are many action games that will allow you to pause in the middle of battle to change gear, weapons or drink a potion to replenish health.

 

But that is part of the uniqueness and charm of mass effect. Its part rpg, part shooter, part action, part strategy too. Its too deviant and with many additional aspects to generally fit into any of these genres. But it drinks a lot from all of these wells. For me at least, this was a major source of surprise. In a time when nothing seemed new to me, everything was so modular, so serialized, so formulaic and afraid to take risks, mass effect was not a breath or a small wind, but a tornado of much required fresh air. The trilogy is something unique. And catchy. It managed to grab my attention and make me learn more about it, replay it numerous times. Very few games could hold my attention for so long, and probably all of them would require a second player beside me, a group of people or even an entire online community. Aside from the original ending, its quite satisfactory to play. From a gameplay and story perspective. But perhaps the most fantastic aspect of the trilogy is that even when we fully recognize its numerous defects and shortcomings, somehow the good aspects compensate for that and still manage to make us enjoy it. There are clouds in the sky, indeed. But they wont block the sun nor destroy our hot day. On pc, things are even better. I dont like the low level characters in me1. I can start on a very high level using console commands. I dont like the reputation bar. It limits my conversations. It forces me to delay certain steps. Thats ok, I can raise the bar with just one short line of code.At least on pc, most of the things that bother me I can somehow circumvent. 

[czeuch]

Geth you lil cheater
Just kidding.

Now seriously, ME games are good when checked in separate. But as a whole, there is nothing like it.

[geth47]

Well, what can I say? I really am. Guilty as charged. 

 

I dont think games are a sacred book that none should dare to tamper with. Specially on pc, theres a mentality that if you think something can be improved for your better enjoyment, you should feel free to go ahead and do it.

 

Im totally against doing that in MP games when fair play is expected, everyone abiding by the same set of rules. But when it comes to single play, specially games that Ive played already and could use a different flavor? Im totally in favor of it. He wanted to do it. He saw it could be done. And therefore he did it. 

 

Better textures, totally re-worked graphics, alterations to the backgrounds, different weapons, activating deleted dialogues and discarded items or quests. Trying to do the missions in a different order than you were expected to. There are even mods that will allow mass effect 3 to feature more extra-powers for the sp game that you only use on MP. 

 

Im not cheating. Im simply redefining what fairness is. 

 

But seriously, I think its an intrinsic part of the notion of property that you can do with it as it pleases you. The gaming industry somehow forgets about it and imposes restrictions that would be fatal in any other field. Why not allow us to replay any combat segmet in a holodeck type of recreation? Or every story section in a theater mode? 

 

Back in the 90s, I used to rent movies sometimes not because they seemed interesting but merely because some hot actress was in it and I wanted to see her best scenes. You could fast forward it on your vcr in order to jump to the segment in question.

 

In any book, even the  mystery tales, youre not supposed to look at the final chapter prior to reading the prior section. But theres no mechanism there to prevent you from doing it. Theres nothing on books demanding that you prove that you have read till a certain part in order to find a citation. It would be ludicrous to place such a wall on the readers.

 

The gaming industry started to go downhill for me when instead of offering more freedom they decided to restrict it. The customer had already paid full price for the product but he could only enjoy a portion of it. Lots of locked content, that youre supposed to earn it. Even characters. Quite cool as a challenge, for the player during the first time when he has the disposition, but a little too restrictive when theres no key to unlock parts of it or even the whole set. Otherwise you needed to purchase an additional piece, the memory card, and pray that it never gets corrupted. Mine did. Twice. That was when I started to not care anymore. 

 

Its terrible to have to replay everything in order to consult a scene. Imagine, having to re-read a book till page 153 in order to locate a reference when you know exactly where the reference is. Even worse if it was a tv series. Having to earn the right to watch episode 100 by watching all 99 episodes prior to it. Self-destructive in any entertainment industry, but somehow to this day accepted in the gaming industry, and even defended by some players, unaware of the fact that they are consumers with difficult access to all the aspects of what they have purchased. Any movie reviewer can easily take a screen-shot from a moment that happens at the 95 minute mark in a movie in less than a minute by reaching that segment. But try to do the same in regards to the end of a videogame. It can take hours, just for one picture. 

 

The inventory is simply a pain in ME1. Games were supposed to be fun, not boring. I can quick it aside, and so should you if you desire. Another thing that always boggled my mind is the reputation bar. Shepard survived a N7 training. Hes an elite officer. He went through traumatic ordeals. And he even becomes the first human spectre and takes charge of the newest alliance ship. You dont get to do that by having inhibitions when it comes to speak up and act in a brave or daring manner. You simply do not. No small talk will forge your character more than what you lived throughout till that point. The reputation is baseless. Not to mention that it rewards simplicity and punishes (in a sense) complexity when it comes to moral spectrum. On a normal play, I may have to delay going to noveria because I need X amounts of points in order to influence someone. I also cant do mirandas and jacks loyalty mission all too soon because I dont want to lose the reputation of either one of them during a discussion even if later I can persuade the angry part otherwise so she will forgive me. I can avoid all that and simply fill the bar. And focus on what really matters to me. Its liberating. And cooler. Cheating? Yeah. But not necessarily in a bad way. Some could say Im abusing the poor helpless game, violating it , tearing it apart. I think Im personalizing it , enhancing it to better suit my taste, improving it to bring it closer to my play-style and philosophy. In any event, I can always play the original game, in its intended for by the developers. But only when and if I want it. Having a wider field of choices, more liberty, is never a bad thing for me. its always good to know that you have options, and even better when they suit your taste and you make use of them. 

[AlanC9]

You won't miss a lot if you use the correct weapons

Yeah, but that's kind of the point. An infiltrator Shepard hasn't learned to use sniper rifles yet. Why hasn't she?

[czeuch]

Geth that was a joke and you wrote a bible
But I understand, I sometimes do that verbally lol

Alan. Why? You could spend that point snipers. I believe you have a starting weapon or 2 afair.

[AlanC9]

AlanC9, thats why I think story and gameplay should be entirely divorced concepts. For a N7 soldier, Shepard not only starts with no talents, but with totally crappy equipment. Any small-time crook he will come across will have much better weapons, armors and mods than he does.

I put up with that when I have to, but I'd prefer the mechanics to support the RP, rather than undermining it.
 

If one wants to do it in a more realistic way, its better to play on PC, use console commands in order to give you good equipment, jump to level 60 and play the game in one of the 2 hardest settings.

So, NG+ except with a new character, and faster equipment gain since you don't wait for the random drops to re-equip you. Yeah, I can see that working.
 

Yeah, pause is a (nice) option, but not a requirement. The MP is a true testament to the fact that the game can be played without ever pausing. But there are many action games that will allow you to pause in the middle of battle to change gear, weapons or drink a potion to replenish health.

Come to think of it, I remember watching a couple of the regulars here -- don't remember who -- get into a huge argument over when and whether a game with ME2 mechanics could be an RPG. Someone was taking the position that ME2/3 were RPGs if the player paused all the time, and they weren't RPGs if the player didn't.

[AlanC9]

Alan. Why? You could spend that point snipers. I believe you have a starting weapon or 2 afair.

You sure? IIRC sniper rifles need a few points to unlock.

[czeuch]

You're right Alan. You need assault rifle first I guess.

[Loufi]

The ME series is my favorite as well. But I must admit, I've been totally "grabbed" by the Witcher 3 these last weeks. This game is amazing. 

 

Back some years ago, while it wasn't technically a RPG, Metal Gear Solid was also a masterpiece regarding the depth of the story and of the universe. 

[geth47]

"So, NG+ except with a new character, and faster equipment gain since you don't wait for the random drops to re-equip you. Yeah, I can see that working."

 

Exactly. 

 

If the game was about Shepard enlisting, going to the academy and raising in ranks as the years go by it would make sense to start at level 1 with terrible equipment. But for a veteran soldier its a joke. Its basically like any shepard at level 60 feels like, but instead of being a replay, a new play with that character. Unless you equip yourself with super armor or the special geth rifle that can kill almost everything with a single shot, the game can still be challenging if you play on hardcore or insanity. 

 

I would not recommend this approach to someone new to the series, but if you have beaten it already once or twice, and you think you have a good grasp of the game mechanic, go for it. Sadly, this can only be done on the PC version. 

 

In a way, its no different than instead of playing a classic rpg in which you start at level 1, play a scenario designed for experience players. Yeah, your character and his squad will be much better, but so will the enemies. This could make things even. Personally, I think its actually harder to play on hardcore or insanity starting with a level 60 shepard with the best equipment, than playing on normal or veteran starting with a level 1. You have access to lots of powers from the get go, but you will also be facing much harder forces. 

 

But the main thing on my mind is to avoid at all cost the handling ot items. After eden prime I spent about half an hour just generating and setting up the equipment, and then Im free or concerns about all the time making alterations. Constantly altering gear wasnt fun not even during my first play. 

"Come to think of it, I remember watching a couple of the regulars here -- don't remember who -- get into a huge argument over when and whether a game with ME2 mechanics could be an RPG."

 

Its pointless to engage into a huge debate regarding this matter. My main concern regarding any game is: Is it good? 

 

But I think it should be noted that one game that is so diverse attracts people based on different motives. One point that has very little appeal to you or a me could generate a lot of interest in a third person. Mass Effect, for instances, while not being primarily a dating simulator, does feature an optional dosage of it, the chance to engage in a romance in which you may fail or succeed. There are traces of dating sim in Mass Effect, but its not the main attraction. 

 

Shen Mue had elements of a fighting game, but it was not a fighting game per si. Its very common for games, during a bonus stage of between stages to suffer a little identity crisis and toy with a different genre. ME2 has a memory test as bonus game, while me1 had a QTE subgame on console, and a circular frogger clone on pc. 

 

Mass Effect has a lot of action, a lot of rpg elements, a lot of shooting, a hint of dating sim, a hint of interactive novel, but it doesnt really fit into any of these genres. Its heavily action oriented, but it also depends a lot on dialogues. Theres a lot of potential for shooting, but (specially on 3) you can win without firing. There are powers, but they can be your main weapon or simply a bonus to assist you. There are squad-mates to instruct, but you can order them to stay behind and have all the fun alone. it has very distinct elements from all these genres, but it doesnt really fit into any of them. 

 

Alpha Protocol and the original Deus EX can also defy classification in the traditional sense. They mix styles and elements. 

 

These two games and the mass effect trilogy are like pizzas with several items used as toppings. Or a very elaborated cake I enjoy very much (we call it bolo-pudim). Its a mix of creme caramel and chocolate cake.  a few pictures of it: http://img.itdg.com....=370&height=278

http://mulherecia.co...03/snc00366.jpg

 

One of the best desserts I ever had. Some people even use and intermidiate layer sometimes with other ingridients. And you can also use melted chocolate or condensed milk to cover the caramel top. 

 

Just like a hot dog or hamburger is more than just bread, or just meat, or just onions or whatever you want on it. They are part bread, but not breads in themselves. They use meat, but they are not meat in their entirety. The can go very good with onions, but they are more than just onions. 

 

You could use them to satisfy your crave for meat, and they could satisfy meat lovers, but they are not meat entirely.

 

" Someone was taking the position that ME2/3 were RPGs if the player paused all the time, and they weren't RPGs if the player didn't."

 

You could also use an airplane as a land vehicle. It can run, even though it was primarily designed to fly. Or a kitchen knife can be turned into a lethal weapon. My PC is not solely a videogame. Its not even primarily a videogame. Its a versatile machine that I use for several purposes. Its not a book reader, but it can be used as one. I can listen to music using it. I can play games on it, maybe even better to consoles that were primarily designed to play games. But still, I would not reefer to a pc as just another videogame. it would be disingenuous to refer to it as a telephone, even though it can be used as one.  

 

 

 

The key here is that pausing the action is OPTION. A fair option, a given option, a designed option. But its optional. Even the tutorial videos will recommend that you use it. 

 

A person could try to play the game with just one finger on a xbox controller, but it doest change the fact that it was envisioned for more. 

 

If an option was given, its now an integral part of the game. The game can be played by focusing on  its shooting aspects, its rpg aspects, its action aspects. It was designed with the intention in mind to offer multiple approaches and tactics. Playing with a vanguard, an infiltrator and an engineer require very different tactics. 

 

In the case of mass effect 1, I would say that the rpg elements have more precedence over the shooting mechanic. But its still not totally a rpg. Not with so much reliance on reflexes and aiming. 

 

In ME2, the rpg elements over the guns was downplayed. But it still exists in other parts of the game. 

 

ME3 is part action, part shooter, part rpg, part strategy. I think that in order to better understand the situation, we should pay attention to what the woman who defined the combat mechanic has to say: 

 

Each class allow you to focus on one particular aspect of the gameplay. Some are good in all kinds of situations, some just for close combat, some have a focus on long distance, some are more about disabling the enemy. And theres also the strategic element of your squad-mates. Mass Effect is a series that allows you to approach a situation with a wide variety of choices based on your class. A person playing soldier will have the impression that is playing primarily a shooter game. A vanguard, an action game. Same goes for biotic. An infiltrator, a long distance tactical shooter with a big focus on strategy. A sentinel, a very diverse action game mixed with shooting. An engineers, a tactical rpg in which you debuff your enemy and finish them with gunshots should you prefer. 

Modifié par geth47, 24 octobre 2015 - 12:03 .

[angol fear]

@geth47, did you play the trilogy on PC or console?

[CaIIisto]

I don't particularly see the need for labels with this.

Is ME an RPG series? Amount of f*cks given = 0

Is it a great series of games?

[geth47]

"geth47, did you play the trilogy on PC or console?"

 

My first contact with the series was on the xbox 360. A console.

 

At the time (back in 2011) I was uncertain about purchasing a PS3 or a xbox 360. Most of the games were shared between the 2 and, with very few exceptions, fairly similar (it wasnt like in the days of genesis x snes when you could see major differences between the same game on multiple platforms), with close to no exclusive content (the joker mini-game on arkham asylum and kratos on mortal kombat are exceptions). Back then, ME1 was an exclusive xbox title (aside from windows), and I was trying to use the exclusives between the 2 consoles as a tiebreaker. I was actually much more interested in playing ME2 based on all the praise the game was receiving. But Im a very methodical individual. There was no way I was going to start with ME2 without at least trying ME1 first. My impressions at first were a mixed bag. In terms of visual presentation, character development, general plot and immersion, it was great. On the other hand, the control over the character and the mako felt very clunky and could use a lot of polishing. Gladly, combat was refined in ME2. The AI of the squad-mates was also extremely stupid. More than often they would behave erratically, run towards the danger or somehow become locked. Even though the game was installed on a hard drive (if memory serves me right), I could not help but think it was taking too long to load. But at least it was in order to see very pleasing graphics. 

 

The fact that I could import the ME1 character into ME2 and play on a different environment shaped by my previous decisions, including some extra content only available to some people who actually played the game instead of a very short and limited interactive comic book scored a direct hit in favor of the xbox. You simply could not do the same on PS3 since there was no ME1 available for it. (In 2011. Nowadays there is, and you can import just like on xbox and pc.) 

 

But I cant say I played the trilogy on xbox. In fact, it would take a whole year for mass effect 3 to be released. it was initially scheduled for the end of 2011, but it was delayed for a march 2012 release. 

 

I was just a few days away from purchasing a xbox360. In no small-part influenced by the first two mass effect games and with a lot of hope (and hype) regarding the third one. Since my youth I was a big science-fiction aficionado. People say that galaxy quest is the best star trek movie recently produced, even though it lacks the name. In a sense, I see mass effect as the greatest trek games that never existed. 

 

I already had formulated a list of wanted titles: arkham asylum, arkham city,  mortal kombat 9, mortal kombat vs dc,  street fighter 4, super street fighter 4, halo and the 2 mass effect titles.

 

I was a little shocked to learn that several people were abandoning console gaming in favor of PC gaming. Or at least using pc as the main gaming machine, and resorting to consoles only to buy exclusives on a supporting role. I decided to postpone the purchase of the xbox and look into the matter carefully. After a few more months of deliberation I decided to go with PC gaming instead. From the list of games I mentioned, the only ones missing from my collection now are Halo and MK vs DC. All the others had pc releases, that were technically superior to their console counterparts and also offer the freedom of being modded. ME 1 and 2 were actually two of the very first titles Ive tried. ME2 is a very straight console port that allows you to play at 1080pi and at 60 fps. ME1 was vastly improved for the pc release, with shortcuts, better graphics, reconstructed mini-games, much shorter loading times, not so awful inventory, very nice fps, higher resolution. And or course, there are mods that will let you give the game a total face-lift, as well as the console commands allowing you to toy with the settings. 

 

But it was only after turning into a pc gamer that I experienced the full trilogy. I actually bought the origin trilogy pack (and later all the special editions of 2 and 3 with all the dlcs). Aside from a few promotional items for Me2 and a few weapons, as well as certain items for ME3 that I simply cant find for purchase anywhere, I own the full trilogy. I have done dozens of entire trilogy runs by now. Ill play other games (Im itching to play arkham knight, the new witcher, the new hitman and others) and venture into the unknown with them. But whenever I play mass effect again (and Ill always find time to do it), its like coming back home. 

[congokong]

I probably never got more attached to a character in any game than Shepard. Even though rpgs like Skyrim can be over twice as long, they don't have the character development that makes you really care about the protagonist. Dragon Age did something similar to Mass Effect, but with lesser effect. That's because each game had a different main character and your decisions tended to matter less in the following games. Mass Effect managed to import so many choices, big or small, of varying consequence that it made identifying with your Shepard far easier.

[czeuch]

Same here. And not only Shepard but the companions too. The normandy... so many things

[KaiserShep]

When I started getting back into games a few years ago, the Mass Effect series was pretty much the first thing I tried, since a scifi space opera RPG seemed right up my alley, and sure enough it was. It'll remain one of my all time favorite VG series. However, I think that DA overall is more strongly written and takes greater advantage of the focus on companion characters (I consider the approval system to be vastly superior to the way ME handles followers). In any case, still some wonderful games. This and DA will ensure that I never get rid of my PS3, unless everything gets remastered into next gen.

[themikefest]

 In any case, still some wonderful games. This and DA will ensure that I never get rid of my PS3, unless everything gets remastered into next gen.

That would be nice if DAO/DA2 and the ME trilogy is remastered for the ps4. Even if that were to happen, I'll still keep my ps3.