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[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

I’ve been thinking a lot about who and what Dumat is (the Tevinter Old God of Silence and the first Archdemon). I've seen a lot of speculation about the identity of Dumat so I decided to summarize all my thoughts and theories together here in this post. 

 

 

Theory 1. Dumat is Mythal/Flemeth.

The first theory is the most common I've seen, that Dumat is Flemeth/Mythal. According to this theory there is a connection between the Old Gods of Tevinter and the gods of the Elven Pantheon.

 

Clues to support this theory:

 

First clue: Andraste was born the very same year that Dumat died. This could mean that Andraste was created through a "Dark Ritual" similar to the one we players are able to perform in DA:O. There have been many theories about Flemeth = Andraste, so I'll just note the similarities and not explain any further on this topic. 

 

Second clue: DA:I Astrarium notes. A Tevinter constellation¹ most likely about Dumat and in the same description it says it might be linked to Mythal.

 

Third clue:

While in the fade looking for Kieran, the Inquisitor speaks to Flemeth.

- Inquisitor: Do you know what we're up against?

- Flemeth: More than you could possibly imagine.

According to the statement above it's very likely that there is a strong connection between Flemeth and Corypheus and maybe more of the old Tevinter magisters that once entered the Black City. Since Corypheus used to be the High Priest of Dumat, Corypheus some time in the past was commanded by Dumat to enter the fade. If Dumat is indeed Flemeth, then that could be what she means when she says “more than you could possibly imagine", since he in that case used to be her own priest.

 

Fourth clue:

As we’ve seen in both the DA2: Legacy DLC and in Inquisition, Corypheus can no longer hear the commandments of Dumat and now he seeks to become a god himself. During his last fight with the Inquisitor, he's yelling:
 

“Dumat! Ancient ones I beeseech you. If you exist- if you ever truely existed- aid me now! “

Corypheus is calling for his one time lord Dumat when all else is failing. What makes this interesting is that he's doing it while standing next to an elven mosaic² depicting Mythal. He's yelling for Dumat next to the very image of Mythal.

(Although, it's worth noting that in DA:O we see statues of Falon'Din within the Temple of Sacred Ashes. Also, before the final fight with Corypheus there is also a hooded statue in the temple that could be connected to Dirthamen⁸. So Mythal isn't the only elven god connected to this temple). 

 

 

Theory 2. Dumat is another god from the Elven Pantheon.

Theory number two is that Dumat is another god from the Elven Pantheon. My personal guess would be Dirthamen. According to this theory there is a direct connection between the Old Gods of Tevinter and the gods of the Elven Pantheon (nine elven gods, minus Mythal and Fen'Harel = seven old gods). 

 

Clues to support this theory:

 

First clue: In the Legacy DLC we come across the "Altar of Dumat", where there is a statue³. This statue has been seen in a other places across Thedas connected to elves⁴. The way I see it, this statue has nothing to do with Mythal. We've seen two different statues of Mythal in Inquisition and none of those are in any way similar to this one and that's because this "monk statue" most likely depicts another elven god.

 

Second clue: Dumat was the Dragon of Silence. Which elven god could be linked to silence? Dirthamen, whose mosaic depicts an elf holding his hands in front of his mouth⁵. Dirthamen was "the Keeper of Secrets". For something to be a secret trusted people need to hold their tongue (a very clear connection between the concepts of secrets and silence in my opinion). 

 

Third clue: Draconis, a possible eight old god⁶. We know that Mythal was killed, betrayed by the other elven gods⁷ (the Evanuris). The seven old gods gave orders to the Tevinters, so if they're really the same then it's very likely the records of Mythal's Tevinter name was wiped out when she was betrayed.

 

Fourth clue: The Dragon Age universe is loosely based on our world¹¹ (mostly Europe). The Tevinter Imperium is loosely based on the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire¹². In our world the Romans worshipped many different gods before they converted to christianity. These Roman gods were more or less the same as the old Greek gods but with different names. The Romans copied very much from the ancient greeks and their culture since the greek society was seen as more advanced. This could imply that since the Tevinter Imperium is based on the Roman Empire then the ancient elves are based on the Greeks (Arlathan was more advanced than Tevinter and the humans copied what they could from the ruins, maybe/probably even their gods). 

 

More on why I think Dumat could be Dirthamen: In DA:I, we get to visit the "Lost temple of Dirthamen". What I've been asking myself is why there are no statues depicting him in his own temple? There are several wolves (Fen'Harel), halla (Ghilan'ain) and owl (Falon'Din) statues, but none that could be traced to Dirthamen himself. I believe the reason for this is the developers aren't ready to reveal the identity of Dumat just yet. Placing a giant "monk statue" in the middle of Dirthamen's temple would mean he's Dumat since the monk statue is also Dumat's.

 

 

Also, Dumat was the one who taught the Tevinters how to do blood magic (see further below about the "Claw of Dumat"). 

According to Dalish stories Falon'Din was able to enter the fade and guide spirits and the dead. Dirthamen however had problems doing what his brother did. According to Solas, blood magic makes it more difficult to connect to the fade. If Dirthamen really is Dumat then it's very likely that his practise of blood magic made it hard for him to connect to the fade. 

 

 

Theory 3. Dumat is one of the Forgotten Ones. An enemy of the Elven Gods.

For this to be true, the "monk statue" mentioned earlier isn't depicting one of the elven gods at all, but instead a forgotten one. This could mean that:

 

a ) Before the Forgotten Ones became "forgotten", they were worshipped just like the nine elven gods (so the elven gods were actually more than just nine, but are remembered as only nine after a big conflict/war that erased them from the elven pantheon).

 

b ) It could also mean that the Tevinter Imperium placed these statues at the old elven ruins after these had been conquered. If they did, then they did it to replace the old ones depicting the elven gods (a very common thing with conquered places, the conquerors build their own symbols and temples replacing the old ones).

 

 

Theory 4. The Old Gods and Dumat are something else entirely (not Forgotten Ones or Elven Gods). 

Well, the title of this theory says most of it. However, the monk-statue connected with Dumat being placed at various elven locations doesn't make any sence if this theory is true (unless the Tevinter Imperium placed them there, see 3b). 

 

 

Extra info: The Claw of Dumat

It's also worth mentioning that there is a figure/statue called the "Claw of Dumat" ⁹. 

This icon can be found in the Primeval Thaig, the Fade, Shrine of Dumat and more places. I believe this figure is one of the things the old magisters used to enter the fade¹⁰. Right now there is no clear connection between this figure and any other deity (if it really was used to enter the fade then there's no reason for it to be obviously connected to any of the elven gods since during their time of rule everybody could enter the fade without blood magic, since the fade and the "normal" world used to be the same at that time).  This figure is still worth mentioning though. 

 

 

Which theory do I believe in?

My favorite one is number two, that Dumat = Dirthamen (or possibly Elgar'nan) and that the Old Gods are the Elven Gods' dragon physical form trapped underground. What do you think?

 

 

 

References:

¹ http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Silentir

 

² http://i.ytimg.com/v...xresdefault.jpg (That circle next to Corypheus is a mosaic depicting Mythal)

 

³ http://dragonage.wik.../Altar_of_Dumat

 

⁴ http://forum.bioware...in-dinan-hanin/

 

⁵ http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Dirthamen

 

⁶ http://dragonage.wik...ation:_Draconis

 

⁷ Trespasser DLC, Solas conversation

 

⁸ https://www.reddit.c...ts_significant/

 

⁹ http://dragonage.wik...ws_of_Dumat.png

 

¹⁰ http://dragonage.wik..._Claws_of_Dumat

 

¹¹ Dragon Age: The World of Thedas, vol. 1, p. 6

 

¹² http://dragonage.wik...vinter_Imperium (reference number 42, unforunately a dead link these days)

[Reznore57]

There's lots of theories indeed .

 

I think the Old Gods were special dragons , related to some "Sun" deity , just like the Titans are related to the "Stone"/Earth.

The elves didn't want them dead , but didn't want them to fly around roasting stuff so they put them underground.

I don't think they are the Evanuris or even the Forgotten Ones , because :

• Solas gets nervous about killing them , he wants to get rid of the Evanuris so why not let the wardens do his dirty work?
• Flemythal saved Urthemiel , she told Morrigan this dragon soul was worth saving from the "darkness" .I doubt she has fluffy feelings about the Evanuris too.Just like Solas she may want to see them suffer and die.
• Flemythal is also saving great dragons in secret  ; great dragons who aren't old gods but might be the same type of beasts.
• Archdemons are cunning animals/predators , but they are not the same as an Architect or Corypheus with complicated scheme, goals what have you.Urthemiel soul in Kieran wasn't even taking over the kid , it was there but aside keeping the child company and giving him knowledge and dreams , nothing.

 

Now the truth is I really don't think the "entities" known as Dumat and co talking with the magisters were the dragons burried underground.

The humans when they came to Thedas were already worshipping dragons in a general manner , just random animist gods , they had little knowledge of the fade or magic.

So anything in the fade could have trolled those primitive tribes into worshipping them .Demons , spirits , elves in uthenera , etc...

 

There's actually very little lore about the actual cult of the Old Gods , they have no stories, no mythology nothing.It's bizarre.

Just big dragons in the fade , teaching blood magic and such in exchange for sacrifice , prayer , worship.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think Dumat is likely to be anything other than what he appears: a dead dragon god unrelated to any other pantheon or religion.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

I don't think Dumat is likely to be anything other than what he appears: a dead dragon god unrelated to any other pantheon or religion.

 

Well, the same monk statue depicting Dumat can be found in various places where the elves have been. So I think that contradicts your theory because there is likely some kind of relation, otherwise these statues shouldn't be there. 

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

 

• Solas gets nervous about killing them , he wants to get rid of the Evanuris so why not let the wardens do his dirty work?

 

I believe the Old Gods don't actually die like a normal person when their dragon forms die. Look at Hakkon, his spirit went back to the fade after his dragon form died. Solas knows exactly what the Old Gods are, and I think he knows that the Wardens don't really know what they're doing/they just don't have the proper knowledge to deal with the Old Gods (especially not one that hasn't yet been corrupted). I think that's why he reacts the way he does and why he dislikes the wardens so much. He's afraid they'll make everything even worse. 

 

 

 

• Flemythal saved Urthemiel , she told Morrigan this dragon soul was worth saving from the "darkness" .I doubt she has fluffy feelings about the Evanuris too.Just like Solas she may want to see them suffer and die.

 

I'm not so sure she actually "saved" Urthemiel at all since I don't think the OGs actually die the way humans do. She's collecting the essence of the old god, but that doesn't mean she's in any way friends with Urthemiel, she might actually be jailing him/her until the final "reckoning". 

[incinerator451]

Well, the same monk statue depicting Dumat can be found in various places where the elves have been. So I think that contradicts your theory because there is likely some kind of relation, otherwise these statues shouldn't be there.

Right, but the Claws of Dumat were re-hashed from that abomination DA2. At this rate they can Ret-con anything.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, the same monk statue depicting Dumat can be found in various places where the elves have been. So I think that contradicts your theory because there is likely some kind of relation, otherwise these statues shouldn't be there. 

 

Lots of statutes are reused game assets.

[Evil Asch]

Lots of statutes are reused game assets.

Also, and, Tevinter jacked more than a few things from the rubble of Arlathan.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

Also, and, Tevinter jacked more than a few things from the rubble of Arlathan.

 

Including their gods?  (theory number two, my favorite one)

[Hydwn]

I started a thread about this in another forum - Hakkon and the old gods.  My personal favourite theory is that the Old Gods were exactly the same kind of creature we see in Jaws of Hakkon - powerful spirits bound the body of a dragon through a ritual.

 

(In other words, the Chant of Light was right.  It claims the Old Gods were spirits/demons.)

 

I actually suspect that this will be Hakkon's contribution to the overall lore of Dragon Age.  There are hints of it.  Ameridan worries that Drakon will have to fight "two dragon-gods," the Archdemon being the other.  So they're already linked.  The Tevinters built a temple to Razikale in the Frostbacks apparently inspired by Avvar lore.  The Avvar chose Razikale's temple as the site of their binding of Hakkon.  

 

As for whether they're "gods" or "spirits," the Avvar laugh at those distinctions.  It's only lowlanders who get hung up on the politics of those words.

 

The implications of this is that Dumat might not be dead forever.  When an Avvar god is bound to physical form, it can die...but to the Avvar, a god is more of a job description than a personal identity.  One Hakkon dies, and another spirit rises to take its place, thanks to Avvar ceremonies, sacrifices, and rituals.  It becomes the new Hakkon, reborn, and the Avvar see it as the same being.

 

We know there are cults of Dumat, and the Tevinters have studied Avvar magic.  I suspect it's only a matter of time before one of them brings a new spirit into the "job" of Dumat to replace the lost god.

[In Exile]

In DA:O, my theory was that the OGs were just dragon abominations. After JOH and DA:I, I actually believe it a lot less. Or rather, we learn one very important thing in JOH people ignore: the "gods" of the Avar aren't accidents, but rather the are made. The OGs, if they are dragon abominations, are actually created if they are like Hakkon. 

[Hydwn]

In DA:O, my theory was that the OGs were just dragon abominations. After JOH and DA:I, I actually believe it a lot less. Or rather, we learn one very important thing in JOH people ignore: the "gods" of the Avar aren't accidents, but rather the are made. The OGs, if they are dragon abominations, are actually created if they are like Hakkon. 

 

Hakkon pre-existed the dragon, though.  Thane Sun-Hair says that the "gods should stay int he world of dreams where they belong," so there was already a god/spirit Hakkon that the Jaws of Hakkon called down into a body.  The ancient Hakkonites didn't create the god, just the abomination using the god's spirit.  

 

Spirits need help to possess things others than mages and corpses - and occasionally trees - so it's likely that the followers of Dumat and the other Olds God spirits/demons called them into the body of a dragon.  The question would be then, was that the Old Gods' idea or something their servants decided on?

[In Exile]

I was unclear. When I say the created Hakkon, I mean they molded a Fade spirit into having the qualities they as defining Hakkon, and then threw it into a spirit. They create their God over and over again when it dies - all their gods are created - but with the way the Fade works their belief makes them very real. It's a fascinating idea - people create the very beings they believe in as a result of the purity and fervency of their belief.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

I just got another idea for me theory about Dumat = Dirthamen. 

 

 

In Haven when asked, Solas says this about blood magic:

"I would teach you, if I knew it. Unfortunately, using blood magic seems to make it more difficult to enter the fade. 

You understand why I have never bothered to learn it."

 

 

From the DA-wiki:

"Taking pity on the deer, Falon'Din gathered her up into his arms and carried her to her rest beyond the Veil. Dirthamen tried to follow them, but the shifting grey paths beyond the Veil would not let him. Separated for the first time from Falon'Din, Dirthamen wandered aimlessly 'til he came across two ravens."

http://dragonage.wik...eper_of_Secrets

 

 

What if Dirthamen's usage of blood magic is what made it so difficult for him to enter the fade? It would explain why Falon'din could do it and not Dirthamen. 

[Aren]

I remember that Solas wasn't particularly happy to hear that the Grey wardens are butchering the old gods he was at best neutral about it, while he doesn't seem to care at all for the Evanuris.

Why Mythal should spare their killers if she want them dead?Unless she is so sadistic that want them dead by her own ends thus she saved the old god to kill him personally,which doesn't make much sense.

[Exile Isan]

After that conversation with Solas about the Warden's plans to hunt down the remaining Old Gods, it made me think that maybe they were guardians of something? And that something was bad. And when the last one was killed whatever they were guarding would be released and that is what Solas is freaking out about?

 

There is also the idea that the Old Gods are not "Gods" at all and are extremely powerful spirits bound to the bodies of dragons? 

 

I don't know. Just throwing out ideas. 

[SandiKay0]

You know Solas said the Evanuris killed Mythal so he locked them away. He never says a thing about locking away the Forgotten Ones.

[Illegitimus]

After that conversation with Solas about the Warden's plans to hunt down the remaining Old Gods, it made me think that maybe they were guardians of something? And that something was bad. And when the last one was killed whatever they were guarding would be released and that is what Solas is freaking out about?

 

There is also the idea that the Old Gods are not "Gods" at all and are extremely powerful spirits bound to the bodies of dragons? 

 

I don't know. Just throwing out ideas. 

 

...I've never quite understood the distinction between extremely powerful spirits who are the object of worship and gods.  Seems to me that's a god.  

 

Personally I really dislike the idea that that Old Gods are the Elven Gods.  The Elven Gods are already plenty important.  I don't like the idea that they are the only important things.  

[Exile Isan]

Just finished Jaws of Hakkon and I'm more convinced than ever that the "Old God Dragons" are dragons someone bound powerful spirits to. It's a flimsy theory and I only have the dragon's breath weapon as any kind of proof, but both the archdemon in DA:O and the dragon that Hakkon was bound to both have purple breath weapons. The archdemon breathed fire though and the one in Jaws shot purple ice balls at the Inquisitor and company. So what if the archdemon is a dragon with a powerful fade spirit bound to it that had been corrupted by the Blight? And that this spirit is what was saved if you do the DR?

[GoldenGail3]

Just finished Jaws of Hakkon and I'm more convinced than ever that the "Old God Dragons" are dragons someone bound powerful spirits to. It's a flimsy theory and I only have the dragon's breath weapon as any kind of proof, but both the archdemon in DA:O and the dragon that Hakkon was bound to both have purple breath weapons. The archdemon breathed fire though and the one in Jaws shot purple ice balls at the Inquisitor and company. So what if the archdemon is a dragon with a powerful fade spirit bound to it that had been corrupted by the Blight? And that this spirit is what was saved if you do the DR?

Or the Evanuris ; but I have my doubts about that theory...

[Sah291]

Weren't the old gods inspired by the idea of angels? Or at least their names are. I think they are probably exactly what they sound like, archdemons...the most powerful gods/spirits that remained in the world post Veil after both the Titans and Elven gods were long gone (except Mythal), and were worshipped as part of a human pantheon, before Andraste/Maker worship.

The idea they are imprisioned elven gods is an interesting idea. But there's no reason to assume they are the same beings. They could still be connected to Mythal, perhaps she raised/protected them in the ages after the elven empire fell.

[The Ascendant]

Perhaps they should remain mysterious, we know so much already, if you reveal everything in the story then what incentive to you have to play? Mysteries keep people hooked. Inquisition revealed loads, but also gave us new ones. The nature of the Old Gods, should remain a mystery for now I believe. 

Personally I believe they were the Forgotten Ones, who took the forms of Dragons and were imprisoned deep in the earth while the Evanuris were imprisoned in the Fade. 

[Evil Asch]

Including their gods?  (theory number two, my favorite one)

If not the actual deities then very likely their artistic representations.

It's also possible the tevene gods were created by the division of the Fade and instead of literally being the evanuris / elven gods they're an aspect of what they were prior to the schism. Maybe Mythal and Fen'Harel were spared the division due to their lesser/ weakened states or Mythal's weakened state and the wolf's role as catalyst of the schism. The Tevene gods could be metaphysical shrapnel anthropormophised as dragons with a clear defined will.

[Inoka]

I haven't much looked into this theory, considering you told me about it like, 2 hours ago, but I have something else to point out. Along the lines of Dumat and Dirthamen being one in the same, is that Trespasser ends with Solas admitting that he is Fin'Harel, his obvious connection to Corypheus, and that he intends to destroy the veil (which would free the other "gods" ), but also strongly hints that the next game will be based in Tevinter(as seen when the Inquisitor stabs the map). It's not much, but it is a connection between the Old Gods and Tevinter.

[Evil Asch]

... and that he intends to destroy the veil (which would free the other "gods" ), but also strongly hints that the next game will be based in Tevinter(as seen when the Inquisitor stabs the map). It's not much, but it is a connection between the Old Gods and Tevinter.

 

He kinda laughs at the inquisitor when he/she asks him about screwing with the veil freeing the elven gods (assuming that's who you mean by gods in your statement) apparently wherever he threw them there's no coming back from (at least that he knows of but he makes such *good* decisions whose to say?)