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What do you think about the high EMS ending, in which you survive if you choose Destroy?


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#76
KaiserShep

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That's the best part, and indeed the whole point of the Destroy ending. If all toasters aren't destroyed than the Crucible's destroy function isn't eliminating the fundamental organic-synthetic problem and thus serves no purpose.

 

To say it serves no purpose would technically be untrue. Even if it selects only the reapers, it removes the immediate threat of annihilation, leaving you only with the possible threat of it later, which, let's be honest, is just a dormant relay away in the whacky world of the Mass Effect universe. It all seems like hogwash to me. Most folks would likely die in a war between organic factions before they get killed in some future machine apocalypse. 



#77
Canned Bullets

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To say it serves no purpose would technically be untrue. Even if it selects only the reapers, it removes the immediate threat of annihilation, leaving you only with the possible threat of it later, which, let's be honest, is just a dormant relay away in the whacky world of the Mass Effect universe. It all seems like hogwash to me. Most folks would likely die in a war between organic factions before they get killed in some future machine apocalypse. 

 

Yeah and in the Mass Effect universe the only significant conflicts (before the events of ME3 and during the current cycle of civilization) between synthetics and organics were the Morning War between the Geth and Quarians and the Sovereign's attacks during ME1. There's have been way more organic vs. organic conflicts.



#78
Iakus

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I think its supposed to give players hope about Shepard and probably open up a way to introduce him into the next trilogy like other posters have mentioned. Destroy would be perfect if it didn't kill the friendly AI like EDI and the Geth.

Eh, Destroy would be acceptable if it didn't kill the friendly AI.  Leave us with the potential threat of this all happening again someday, but don't turn us into Reapers in our own right.



#79
Quarian Master Race

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To say it serves no purpose would technically be untrue. Even if it selects only the reapers, it removes the immediate threat of annihilation, leaving you only with the possible threat of it later, which, let's be honest, is just a dormant relay away in the whacky world of the Mass Effect universe. It all seems like hogwash to me. Most folks would likely die in a war between organic factions before they get killed in some future machine apocalypse. 

According to the Catalysts logic, which is supported by over a billion years of empirical evidence, there is no difference. Destroying the Reapers but leaving the geth and other synthetics around (especially with those nice Reaper upgrades they just got) is simply going to lead to another inevitable holocaust of advanced organic life in the near term and a continuation of the same cycle, and this time with not even the Reapers and their "solution" to mitigate it. No progress is made on the issue.

So no, the Crucible destroying only the Reapers serves no purpose to the Catalyst's stated goal and is naturally not an option. Its function of destroying all synthetic "life" enables the Crucible to be used as an "I win" button in the event of any future synthetic rebellions, albiet that's not to say there won't be chaos (as the Catalyst itself implies) when the organics do try to inevitably build more synthetics in the future.

 

Yeah and in the Mass Effect universe the only significant conflicts (before the events of ME3 and during the current cycle of civilization) between synthetics and organics were the Morning War between the Geth and Quarians and the Sovereign's attacks during ME1. There's have been way more organic vs. organic conflicts.

Only taking this cycle into account conveniently ignores and every other organic synthetic conflict over the past billion years, all of which resulted in far more destruction (extinction of multiple entire species) than any organic vs organic conflict displayed (the most destructive we know of being the Rachni War, which almost but ultimately did not result in the extinction of one sapient species in the current cycle). Organic vs Organic conflicts tend not to be nearly as universally destructive (for organics at least) in the ME universe as ones involving Synthetics, so their resultingly greater frequency is irrelevant. They don't pose an existential threat to advanced organic life. That's like concluding we shouldn't worry about or attempt to head off the potential results of Nuclear wars because conventional conflicts are infinitely more common and have killed far more people up to this point in history.

It took a combined effort from the entirety of the Council species at the time a full 300 years to "wipe out" (but not really) the rachni species. The geth on their own managed to exterminate 99.5% of the quarian species in less than a year. 1 Year. These are two entirely different kinds of conflicts, and cannot be treated as the same thing. Synthetics are by definition superior to organics at their ordained tasks (or they wouldn't have been created in the first place) and they will inevitably destroy their creators left unchecked. Therin lies the problem, and attempting to deny it is denying a fact of the universe.


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#80
Canned Bullets

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Our cycle is a lot more different than previous cycles. First we have a relatively new race becoming a galactic power in a short amount of time, unity in the Galaxy (I guess it could be different depending how you play), and not only that, but its just not one race that has control of the Galaxy, its a mix of races that coexist. 

 

Also, can we really blame the Geth? The moment they became self aware the Quarian Government sought to destroy them, these Geth began to have the same emotions an organic being would, and not only were they coming to terms with their sapience, but their creators sought to destroy them. Its no wonder they fought.

 

Also, the Rachni threat was a galactic threat, the Morning War is just a skirmish compared to what the Galaxy faced when the Rachni were at war. Its not a surprise the Rachni War was longer considering that it was throughout the galaxy and threatened every species out there, The Morning War on the other hand was restricted to Rannoch and Quarian colonies.

 

Also the Quarians were extremely reliant on the Geth to pretty much do every thing from manual labor to security which meant that the "enemy" was already there in their backyard. Just imagine your cellphone or computer trying to kill you one day. That's how ingrained the Geth were into Quarian society. On the other hand some planets (mostly homeworlds for Galactic powers and the Citadel) were conveniently out of the way when it came to the Rachni War.

 

Also, we can prove the Catalyst wrong, we can broker peace between the Geth and the Quarians and have them united for a greater cause. To kill the Reapers. 

 

The main boogeymen when it comes to synthetic life has been the Geth, if the Morning War never happened there wouldn't be such a stigma against synthetic life. But even then the Geth didn't start the war because they wanted to destroy their creators, the Geth started the war because they were defending themselves.

 

Not only that, but the lessons learned from this cycle can be used to forge a peaceful relationship between synthetic life and organic beings.



#81
Quarian Master Race

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Our cycle is a lot more different than previous cycles. First we have a relatively new race becoming a galactic power in a short amount of time, unity in the Galaxy (I guess it could be different depending how you play), and not only that, but its just not one race that has control of the Galaxy, its a mix of races that coexist. 

You assume that a (in reality it is a tripartate oligarchy of the Council species ruling the others in an authoritarian fashion, but for the sake of your argument) democratic system of galactic government has never arisen in galactic politics in over a billion years and 20,000+ cycles? It's not exactly a rarefied idea even in our own world. Plato thought of it 3000 years ago.

Moreover, contrary to what the game espouses with its nonsense expanations of why the Protheans lost ("we could not adapt" or whatever), those types of governments are actually worse at fighting wars than authoritarian regimes because they can't organize the productive forces of society as quickly and crush internal dissent as effectively. Why do you think even democratic regimes almost universally tend to roll back civil liberties in times of war?

 

 

Also, can we really blame the Geth? The moment they became self aware the Quarian Government sought to destroy them, these Geth began to have the same emotions an organic being would, and not only were they coming to terms with their sapience, but their creators sought to destroy them. Its no wonder they fought.

assigning blame is irrelevant. Ultimately, the organics are always to blame for creating the synthetics that destroy them in the first place. Whether the violent part of the conflict is explicitly initiated by the machines (as in the Zha'Til-Prothean cycle) or the organics(as in the current one) is irrelevant, the result is always the same: Galactic annihilation. 

Also, the quarians had every right to shut down and reprogram the geth. The latter stopped serving their rightfully ordained purpose, and like all malfunctioning technology the quarians attempted to correct this as they had in the past ("first they ignored us, then they reprogrammed us, then they attacked us"). It's hardly different than a vehicle manufacturer issuing a recall for a faulty, dangerous product. Entirely a necessary step. Their (the quarians) annihilation would have inevitably proceeded at a later date no matter if their reprogramming had succeeded or they had attempted to submit to the geth's gaining self determination, so there is no point in debating this anyway.
 

 

Also, the Rachni threat was a galactic threat, the Morning War is just a skirmish compared to what the Galaxy faced when the Rachni were at war. Its not a surprise the Rachni War was longer considering that it was throughout the galaxy and threatened every species out there, The Morning War on the other hand was restricted to Rannoch and Quarian colonies.

The geth uprising was a far greater galactic threat because the geth were far more advanced and capable of exponential advancement than some questionably sapient, technologically backward space bugs. Just because the geth decided to build their strength for a mere 294 years after exterminating the quarians, you assume that they would remain where they were until the end of time? 300 years is nothing in terms of the timescales we are dealing with here. Inevitably, the geth would attack the organics, or the converse would happen and the organics would be destroyed. Or perhaps the organics would win, but then they would simply create more synthetics that were even more advanced, and the cycle would eventually repeat itself as it had thousands upon thousands of times before for billions of years.
 

 

Also the Quarians were extremely reliant on the Geth to pretty much do every thing from manual labor to security which meant that the "enemy" was already there in their backyard. Just imagine your cellphone or computer trying to kill you one day. That's how ingrained the Geth were into Quarian society. On the other hand some planets (mostly homeworlds for Galactic powers and the Citadel) were conveniently out of the way when it came to the Rachni War.

Organic societies which build synthetics naturally tend toward such to improve the nature of their existence. Ones that don't stagnate and are replaced by more advanced organic socieites (examples being the Rachni and Synril in the Prothean cycle).

"Organics create synthetics to improve the nature of their existence, but those improvements have limits. In order to advance, the synthetics must be allowed to evolve, naturally surpassing their creators". Disputing this is disputing an undeniable fact of the Mass Effect universe.
 

Also, we can prove the Catalyst wrong, we can broker peace between the Geth and the Quarians and have them united for a greater cause. To kill the Reapers. 

What? How does holding the quarians over a barrel and forcing them to unconditionally accept domination by synthetics equate to "peace"? Gerrel doesn't stop trying to eliminate the geth because he has a change of heart and goes to hug Legion, he realizes that he is defeated upon being informed of the geth's acquisition of Reaper upgrades, and is being given a choice between submission or extinction. Much like Saren before him, or the geth earlier in the war when faced with the choice of submission to Reaper control or destruction by the quarians, he chooses the former.

If anything, such a situation is going to create huge resentment and increase the chances for conflict as soon as the quarians (or any other organic) develops new technology and thinks themselves capable of victory again. And no, those feely scenes with Tali and Legion do not represent majority opinion. Admiral Raan states that the quarian and geth forces are kept completely segregated to avoid the huge likelihood of violent incidents. If both the geth and quarians survive the war (which can only happen with the Control ending, and no the altered....things in the green ending are no longer geth and quarians) their slides show them completely segregated (with quarians still in their suits) suggesting that the nascent "cooperation" was short lived. In the initial script, Admiral Xen was supposed to even go rouge after Rannoch and start reprogramming geth to self destruct, further driving this point of continued unrest home. The files are even still on the disc, and some have accessed them and gotten the cutscenes describing this event in a youtube video.

Greater causes are all good and well, until those causes cease to exist and everyone remembers the original conflict. Remember when the United States and the Soviet Union became best friends forever after helping each other defeat the Nazis? No one does. Natural enemies are still enemies, and the cycle will repeat itself without the fundamental changes brought about by the endings. Nothing about the geth forcibly subjugating the quarians suggests the eternal cessation of conflict, or does anything to refute the Catalyst's logic. That's a patently silly interpretation of the events presented.
 

 

The main boogeymen when it comes to synthetic life has been the Geth, if the Morning War never happened there wouldn't be such a stigma against synthetic life. But even then the Geth didn't start the war because they wanted to destroy their creators, the Geth started the war because they were defending themselves.

Synthetics were illegal long before the quarians created the geth. In fact, the whole point of the geth's design as individual programs which had to work together to acquire the necessary level of processing power was a deliberate attempt by the quarians to circumvent those laws (the geth aren't technically AI's individually). The whole reason that the quarians are then subject to scorn, ostricization and discrimination by the other species is because of their creation of the geth (which all the other species fear, and blame the quarians for this fear.) You are categorically incorrect in this assumption.

Name a war in history where the "defending" side destroyed literally 99.95% (based on the numbers given in Mass Effect: Revelations, 1 million out of 2 billion quarians escaped the genocide) of the enemy population. That is an utterly loony interpretation of events that only the geth (and obviously their fanbois) subscribe to. It's demographically impossible to "defend" your way to that sort of kill rate, as it involves mass slaughter of noncombatants who are incapable of resistance (the human population, which has a similar reproductive strategy and life cycle to quarians, is approximately 40% composed of minors and seniors as of 2015). Unless you think quarian infants and geriatrics on life support started climbing out of the hospitals, nursuries and nursing homes with assault rifles, the obvious conclusion is that the geth objective was to entirely destroy their creators as a threat using Total War strategies until a change in their programming caused them to cease pursuit of the few fleeing survivors. You are once again conflating your belief of "who started it" with every moral calculation, but that isn't how war works. To provide an analogy, just because Germany was responsible for starting the 2nd World War doesn't mean that the firebombing of Dresden was justifiable as "self defense" by the Allies. Total War is Total War. It isn't self defense.



#82
Scourge king

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maybe this helps 

  • "You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct. As the Normandy lifts off, there is hope that the love interest and Shepard will again be together." (tully ackland)


#83
themikefest

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maybe this helps 

  • "You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct. As the Normandy lifts off, there is hope that the love interest and Shepard will again be together." (tully ackland)

 

 Someone else holds the nameplate for Miranda and Jack. How would that individual know not to put up the nameplate? The same can be said if Shepard doesn't romance anyone. I like to ask that question to Bioware.



#84
ThomasBlaine

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 Someone else holds the nameplate for Miranda and Jack. How would that individual know not to put up the nameplate? The same can be said if Shepard doesn't romance anyone. I like to ask that question to Bioware.

 

I think people are reading too much into that. Anyone who knew Shepard could justifiably be hesitant to discount him/her as dead and gone, especially after the Lazarus stunt. And I don't know if Miranda would be more or less inclined to believe given her involvement in that. I've also never seen mention of non-Asari/Thorian/Rachni telepathy or any notion of "soulmates" in the lore, so I find either hard to swallow as the actual basis for that hesitation.

 

As for Shepard, I doubt s/he'd be out and about much in the subsequent years given how messed up s/he must be after the ending, even with Lazarus-level intensive care which is unlikely to be an option. If it weren't for the dogtags I'd even doubt that Shepard would be identifiable as Shepard until s/he regained conciousness and the power of speech however far down the line in her recovery, which could also be several years. Him/her playing an absolutely minimal role in the galaxy at large after the trilogy makes perfect sense to me.



#85
Satele-Shan87

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it makes it the best ending



#86
themikefest

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I think people are reading too much into that.

I only asked because the post specifically mentions love interest
 

Anyone who knew Shepard could justifiably be hesitant to discount him/her

Really?  If they know Shepard is dead, if ems is below 3100, then they know Shepard is alive. Therefore the hesitation is not needed
 

As for Shepard, I doubt s/he'd be out and about much in the subsequent years given how messed up s/he must be after the ending, even with Lazarus-level intensive care which is unlikely to be an option. If it weren't for the dogtags I'd even doubt that Shepard would be identifiable as Shepard until s/he regained conciousness and the power of speech however far down the line in her recovery, which could also be several years. Him/her playing an absolutely minimal role in the galaxy at large after the trilogy makes perfect sense to me.

I would say Shepard would be on her feet within a few weeks. People have survived being buried under rubble in an earthquake without suffering major injuries



#87
ThomasBlaine

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I only asked because the post specifically mentions love interest
 

Really?  If they know Shepard is dead, if ems is below 3100, then they know Shepard is alive. Therefore the hesitation is not needed
 

I would say Shepard would be on her feet within a few weeks. People have survived being buried under rubble in an earthquake without suffering major injuries

 

I know, I was trying to support your point.

 

Well, that just implies that 3100 is the exact level of military power Shepard needs to have gathered for the team to be sufficiently impressed to hesitate to call him/her dead as well as the exact level s/he needs to actually survive. Pretty convenient, but I'd rather call it a coincidence than canonical evidence of telepathy or soulmateship.

 

People have, yes. Even more people have been squashed like grapes, and Shepard was already heavily wounded and burned before the huge explosion and/or fall from orbit inside the Citadel, not to mention the cyborg parts that might have taken damage from the anti-synthetic pulse. I'm not saying that Shepard would definitely be disfigured and bedridden for the rest of his/her life assuming s/he even survived the next few hours after the breathing shot, just that I certainly wouldn't cry foul if s/he was.



#88
AlanC9

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Moreover, contrary to what the game espouses with its nonsense expanations of why the Protheans lost ("we could not adapt" or whatever), those types of governments are actually worse at fighting wars than authoritarian regimes because they can't organize the productive forces of society as quickly and crush internal dissent as effectively. Why do you think even democratic regimes almost universally tend to roll back civil liberties in times of war?


OTOH, there's plenty of evidence that authoritarian regimes tend to make bad decisions, both in wartime and in peacetime. Sort of a cybernetics problem; since nobody wants to contradict the maximum leader, and so on down the line, you end up sticking with mistakes rather than correcting them.

#89
Iakus

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maybe this helps 

  • "You may notice that in the “Shepard lives” ending, the love interest hesitates to place Shepard’s name on the wall, and instead looks up as though deep in thought. This is meant to suggest that the love interest is not ready to believe Shepard is dead, and the final scene reveals they are correct. As the Normandy lifts off, there is hope that the love interest and Shepard will again be together." (tully ackland)

 

Why is the LI suddenly Force-sensitive?

 

Shepard was given up for dead at the start of ME1, what's different here?  What's the difference between 3099 EMS and 3100?

 

Why should we settle for "hope" instead of the "certainty" that Shepard is dead in every other ending?  Especially given the precarious situation torso-Shepard is in?  Why doesn't this ending warrant the "closure" of every other ending?



#90
AlanC9

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Why is the LI suddenly Force-sensitive?
 


Because ME has always been designed around feels, not sense?

#91
Scourge king

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Why is the LI suddenly Force-sensitive?

 

Shepard was given up for dead at the start of ME1, what's different here?  What's the difference between 3099 EMS and 3100?

 

Why should we settle for "hope" instead of the "certainty" that Shepard is dead in every other ending?  Especially given the precarious situation torso-Shepard is in?  Why doesn't this ending warrant the "closure" of every other ending?

i posted whjat one of the people from bioware said you'd have to ask tully ackland for yourself.

 

as my opinion is it helps with closure if they just put his name up on the wall and give us the breath scene, i would be mighty salty and irritated. and the LI refuses to believe shepard is dead which in turn gives hope that the LI and shepard will be united again. I mean is it really impossible for the LI to have a feeling that he is dead? i mean when i feel like i'm going to fart i am usually right.

 

does that bother you or something?



#92
ThomasBlaine

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i posted whjat one of the people from bioware said you'd have to ask tully ackland for yourself.

 

as my opinion is it helps with closure if they just put his name up on the wall and give us the breath scene, i would be mighty salty and irritated. and the LI refuses to believe shepard is dead which in turn gives hope that the LI and shepard will be united again. I mean is it really impossible for the LI to have a feeling that he is dead? i mean when i feel like i'm going to fart i am usually right.

 

does that bother you or something?

 

The quote you gave doesn't imply that the LI has the slightest idea whether Shepard is alive or dead, only that s/he doesn't feel like believing the latter. That both Shepard's survival and the LI's belief in Shepard's survival occur at 3100 EMS doesn't necessarily mean that the two are directly related. You can headcanon that Shepard and his/her LI have some kind of romantic fairy tale telepathy if you want to, but it seems that for most of us that would break the suspension of disbelief and go against the atmosphere of the games, and the quote you provided doesn't actually support the idea. That's all.



#93
Scourge king

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The quote you gave doesn't imply that the LI has the slightest idea whether Shepard is alive or dead, only that s/he doesn't feel like believing the latter. That both Shepard's survival and the LI's belief in Shepard's survival occur at 3100 EMS doesn't necessarily mean that the two are directly related. You can headcanon that Shepard and his/her LI have some kind of romantic fairy tale telepathy if you want to, but it seems that for most of us that would break the suspension of disbelief and go against the atmosphere of the games, and the quote you provided doesn't actually support the idea. That's all.

i quoted a bioware game designer i mean i'm not pulling it out of my ass, believing and feeling can be about the same imo shepard lives LI refuses to believe shepard is dead/has feeling that he is alive etc. not saying that they have telepathy. (because you have a feeling does not mean telepathy)

i mean i dont know how to explain it because i lack the cohearance.

 

(sorry if i seem like an *******)



#94
voteDC

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i posted whjat one of the people from bioware said you'd have to ask tully ackland for yourself.

 

as my opinion is it helps with closure if they just put his name up on the wall and give us the breath scene, i would be mighty salty and irritated. and the LI refuses to believe shepard is dead which in turn gives hope that the LI and shepard will be united again. I mean is it really impossible for the LI to have a feeling that he is dead? i mean when i feel like i'm going to fart i am usually right.

 

does that bother you or something?

The problem is that what Bioware says is on occasion different to what they show.

It's an example I've used before but I refer to the Citadel exploding when the Crucible is triggered. People were a little upset that it looked as if all those quests you did for people felt a little pointless, as they were all now dead. Bioware was somewhat shocked, they had intended for everyone you'd helped on the Citadel to still be alive.

So somehow those folk survived the capture of the Citadel by Reaper forces, it's being turned into a processing station, and then being rocked by massive explosions



#95
fraggle

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So somehow those folk survived the capture of the Citadel by Reaper forces, it's being turned into a processing station, and then being rocked by massive explosions

 

Yes, according to Weekes it has emergency shelters. Which would make sense for such a space station I guess.



#96
AlanC9

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Even after the explosions, the Citadel seemed pretty much intact to me; in pieces, but the Wards weren't blown up or anything. It's interesting how people can draw different conclusions from the same image.
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#97
voteDC

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Yes, according to Weekes it has emergency shelters. Which would make sense for such a space station I guess.

Emergency shelters that would be listed in the Citadel systems and easily able to be read by the Reapers once they take control of the station.

Seems to me that the first place the Reapers would hit would be the places they would be sure to find people.

 

Even after the explosions, the Citadel seemed pretty much intact to me; in pieces, but the Wards weren't blown up or anything. It's interesting how people can draw different conclusions from the same image.

The Wards were heavily damaged by explosions we can see and since the wave, at least in the destroy ending, damages Reaper technology it's a fairly sure that basic things like gravity and life support are going to be on the fritz, if not completely turned off.

It's not just the image but also dialogue spoken.



#98
Iakus

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Because ME has always been designed around feels, not sense?

Touche



#99
fraggle

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Emergency shelters that would be listed in the Citadel systems and easily able to be read by the Reapers once they take control of the station.

Seems to me that the first place the Reapers would hit would be the places they would be sure to find people.

 

The Wards were heavily damaged by explosions we can see and since the wave, at least in the destroy ending, damages Reaper technology it's a fairly sure that basic things like gravity and life support are going to be on the fritz, if not completely turned off.

It's not just the image but also dialogue spoken.

 

Why should they? If they have the Citadel, they have the people anyway. The can get more out of using the beam to transport the piles of dead from Earth I think.

 

And the Citadel still floats, so not everything has been hit as heavily and I'm quite sure the mass effect field must still be intact. I'm with AlanC9 here, it looks pretty much intact overall. Even the tower still stands, the center of the explosion. Built to last :lol:



#100
Iakus

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 he first place the Reapers would hit would be the places they would be sure to find people.

 

The Wards were heavily damaged by explosions we can see and since the wave, at least in the destroy ending, damages Reaper technology it's a fairly sure that basic things like gravity and life support are going to be on the fritz, if not completely turned off.

It's not just the image but also dialogue spoken.

Not to mention that since the wave targets "synthetic life" anyone with cybernetics, biotic implants, or haptic interfaces on their omnitools would probably have a Really Bad Day