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What do you think about the high EMS ending, in which you survive if you choose Destroy?


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#126
Iakus

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Here's a gun. Shoot it and it'll kill all Germans and Japanese and Italians but it'll end the World War. Go ahead. Shoot it.  Okay, its not as clear as the Reaper threat, but we can or do gain enough seemingly likely legit info that indicates that destroying the Reapers, while its our 'job', is not necessarily the way to go. So we're bound by choices and all of them are too much to stomach - even a higher EMS Destroy. So we don't be bound by them, and refuse. So the next cycle does better, Shepard is not so much of a 'destroyer' that he kills so many of his supposed allies himself, yet his inaction doomed the last cycle and gave him a lesser legendary status than otherwise.

Worse, it kills everyone of German, Italian, or Japanese descent.

 

You think Japanese internment camps were bad?  How about wholesale slaughter of your own civilian population "for the greater good"?   :sick:

 

 

Refuse = I'm a man/woman of action but damn, this is too much. I cannot and will not be responsible for existence for such a degree. I'm human, not a god.

Refuse, sadly, was a thinly-veiled "frak you" to anyone who didn't like the endings and had the temerity to voice their opinion.


  • Neverwinter_Knight77 et wright1978 aiment ceci

#127
SwobyJ

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Worse, it kills everyone of German, Italian, or Japanese descent.

 

You think Japanese internment camps were bad?  How about wholesale slaughter of your own civilian population "for the greater good"?   :sick:

 

Refuse, sadly, was a thinly-veiled "frak you" to anyone who didn't like the endings and had the temerity to voice their opinion.

 

Unlike you, I have no problem with Shepard becoming a little more and more like his enemy (while still being different and better than them) as his journey progresses and apparently ends. The taint of taking drastic means for drastic ends isn't something I reject.

 

But then again I also venture into forms/expansions of IT, where I can imagine stuff like ME3 being a big-ass indoctrinating experience with Shepard being continuously affirmed about his actions even if the reality of what they mean is far from the 'positivity' we're shown about them.

 

So just dismiss me as crazy lol



#128
Neverwinter_Knight77

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The refusal ending wasn't what so many of us asked for. Not like that. We wanted to reject these idiotic choices and actually, you know, destroy the Reapers, which was the plan from day one in ME1 before getting retconned in the last 5 minutes.

You mean to tell me that we have all these species, all these fleets, all this Collector technology, all this new advanced weapons tech, even a Leviathan for goodness sake and we still get curbstomped? No, I don't believe that. That's completely illogical.

#129
Iakus

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Unlike you, I have no problem with Shepard becoming a little more and more like his enemy (while still being different and better than them) as his journey progresses and apparently ends. The taint of taking drastic means for drastic ends isn't something I reject.

 

But then again I also venture into forms/expansions of IT, where I can imagine stuff like ME3 being a big-ass indoctrinating experience with Shepard being continuously affirmed about his actions even if the reality of what they mean is far from the 'positivity' we're shown about them.

 

So just dismiss me as crazy lol

Yeah, if I end up becoming like my enemy, then what's the point?  Why am I fighting at all, if not to oppose what they stand for?  

 

That's the difference between my Shepard and The Illusive Man.  When the abyss gazed back, he blinked.

 

Believe me, I wish I could buy into IT.  Nothing would make me happier than knowing that what I saw wasn't really what I saw.  Sadly, I believe all we got were whitewashed war crimes.



#130
AVMERM

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The only correct choice is to destroy the Reapers. Destroy completes Shepard's character arc properly and resolves the conflict definitively. The Geth and other sympathetic synthetics are an acceptable casualty of this decision.

 

Control is what an indoctrinated person (IE the Illusive Man) would choose. Renegade Shepards with a lust for total power (or the illusion of it) might also choose this option.

 

Synthesis is what Saren was proposing in Mass Effect 1. It is a horrific choice that destroys the fabric/purpose of organic life. It is essentially the cowards option.

 

Refusal is acceptable for Shepards who are indecisive.

 

That is all.



#131
JohnDoe60

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The Extended Cut ultimately failed when Bioware chose not to get rid of the starchild and the stargazer scene.

The Catalyst didn't know what it was talking about because it was programmed by the Reapers, and ME:A is gonna start with the star gazers (who are actually in the Andromeda galaxy) seeing Reaper forces dropping out of the sky. All because the force behind the Reapers is really an intergalactic race of cyborgs bent on making all life in the universe conform to their idea of what the pinnacle of evolution is.

 

Synthesis is the best possible ending for them because it achieves their ultimate goal. Control is next best because it keeps the Reapers around so the can have another shot. Destroy is worst for them because it sets their agenda back the most, but is the best for anyone who believes that free will and self determination is paramount.

 

So, the starchild and stargazers are actually necessary for the ME story to move forward.



#132
Neverwinter_Knight77

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The Catalyst didn't know what it was talking about because it was programmed by the Reapers, and ME:A is gonna start with the star gazers (who are actually in the Andromeda galaxy) seeing Reaper forces dropping out of the sky. All because the force behind the Reapers is really an intergalactic race of cyborgs bent on making all life in the universe conform to their idea of what the pinnacle of evolution is.

Synthesis is the best possible ending for them because it achieves their ultimate goal. Control is next best because it keeps the Reapers around so the can have another shot. Destroy is worst for them because it sets their agenda back the most, but is the best for anyone who believes that free will and self determination is paramount.

So, the starchild and stargazers are actually necessary for the ME story to move forward.

Both scenes are just depressing for me. And not in the "good drama" way. Just the "I wasted years on this franchise" kind of way.

#133
MichaelN7

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The only thing I got from the High-EMS Destroy ending was that it's the basis of the "Indoctrination Theory"

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

 

I think the Indoctrination Theory would have been exceptional; immortalizing BioWare as one of the greats.  But I still like the endings we got, especially with the Extended Cut.

I've seen it here, and I do the same thing, I just use headcanon to "fill in the blanks", as it were.  If I want my Shepard to have a happy ending, he will.  If I want my Shepard to use Synthesis to recreate his body and that of those who died, he can.  It's my playthrough, so I can insert whatever headcanon I want.

For your Shepard, it could be something completely different, and that's fine, because it's your Shepard.

 

As it stands, it looks neat at first, but nothing comes from it.  It doesn't take your breath away (heh), and it doesn't change anything about Destroy at all.



#134
Get Magna Carter

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when fighting a war against a powerful enemy there are 3 options

 

1) Surrender/give the enemy what they want

this is represented by "Synthesis" as you merge organic with artificial just as the Reapers and their creator wish

 

2) Ally with the enemy/ "If you can't beat them join them"

This is represented by "Control" where you agree to use Reaper methods to achieve Reaper objectives

 

3) Fight on, accepting the cost to your own forces

This is represented by "Destroy"



#135
Hernok

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when fighting a war against a powerful enemy there are 3 options

 

1) Surrender/give the enemy what they want

this is represented by "Synthesis" as you merge organic with artificial just as the Reapers and their creator wish


 

I don't see this point like that, you don't not surrender... they not wish that, play the game again please... They want a solution to the organic and artificial conflict, and their solution is destroy all again, and again, leaving only primitive races... with destroy ending or control, you don't solve this problem... but with synthesis you solve this problem for ever. With geth and quarians... You put sheppards, essence and will into the synthesis solution... Thats is not surrender or give the enemy what they want... But you build the catalyst, YOU make the new possiblity to save the galaxy from the organic/artificial conflict, for ever, and put a new step to evolution...



#136
SwobyJ

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To be 'fair', if we're to take the direct and literal presentation of the plot:

 

1)Synthesis was not what the Reapers were looking for. What they wanted was the Cycle. What specifically Harbinger wanted was humanity harvested in the Cycle, and he seemed to possibly be the most experimental about it is all.

 

2)Synthesis was possibly not what the Catalyst/Intelligence was looking for. It had tried a 'similar solution' but perhaps not actually it. It was also perhaps not looking for this solution anymore, but you showed that it was possible.

 

3)The Reapers do not seem to be actually looking for solution. There may be some curiosity about some aspects of finding it, but they also seem to be set in their ways as the Cycle being the best they can do, and the best that can be done. Picking Synthesis goes against this position of theirs, and even the Catalyst communicates that it was never expecting such a thing to happen. What I mean is that its agency by Shepard, not the Reapers.

 

4)What Saren boasted with man and machine intertwined is not necessarily what the Reapers intended for him, but simply the conclusions he came to through interface with the Reapers (as in, its their ideal, but not necessarily their PLAN). Saren was looking for a way that organics could survive in some form that leans at all organic. It was a flawed and dangerous and cowardly approach, primarily because it accepts loss and accepts subservience and we see what the Reapers think of 'man and machine intertwined means' so far (Collectors at best?), but the principle that he was hanging onto wasn't necessarily what all indoctrinated individuals believe. We see many more examples of what the indoctrinated can come to conclusions about, and it may depend on what 'organicness' is left in them. Some despair more, some worship more, and some bargain more, etc.

 

Basically, Synthesis might be considered not a surrender, but a last-minute peace talks between organics represented by Shepard to end the war (the script is very particular about ending the war and stopping the Reapers being the big thing, and destroying them just being the most definite and clear way to do so, with anything else being a gamble or distraction from destroying them), and end the synth/organic conflict if he has interest in it (there is dialogue throughout the game that brings it up as at least an issue), and the Catalyst that wants to end the war and cycles if it solves its problem. That is, we're not slaves but at the right moment, we may be at least much closer to equals. This is arguable though, since it appears the description and results may favor 'Reaperness' rather than 'organicness', ultimately. But its not a direct surrender, is what I mean. Its not directly Saren.

 

All this is to say that Synthesis MAY not NECESSARILY be a surrender (who is losing and how? is this really a war or was it a larger process beyond even the Reapers' plans?) and MAY not NECESSARILY be giving the enemy what it wants (the Reapers themselves still wanted to Reap until Synthesis, and the Reapers didn't seem to intend on the exact consequences of Synthesis at all). It could be more described as reaching peace and giving both sides what they need - though you/Shepard and the Catalyst being the judges of that is arguably a final step (way?) too far in deciding things for the galaxy.

 

 

To make perfectly clear, Synthesis, to me, IS a surrender and IS giving the enemy what it wants. I was just considering some greyness to this thinking and some devil's advocate.

EDIT: I also get creeped out whenever I think of all the things I listed above being pretty much false because its all just a grand manipulation of some sort to get Shepard into the decision chamber, real or virtual or whatever it is, to ideally-to-them 'freely' pick Synthesis and cause something at least mostly terrible. That Synthesis is 'best' in ME3 but may be seen to be 'worst' or one of the worst, or at least more complicated, later on in the series, assuming IT or anything like it ends up remotely true on this matter.

EDIT: One plus I can imagine is that a Shepard picking Synthesis is clearly one that is now making a statement by actions to pursue what it considered to be peace and progression and even transcendence no matter what. For all its complications or even horrific possibilities (even in literal story, we at least in the short term have what seems to be sapient/sentient husks connected with all now neo-organics LOL), what it could say of Shepard is that they desire to be what they consider to be pure of heart and intent while surrounded by pain, death, and corruption, and that certainly is something newer to ME3's RPing and its own special strain of dialogue and actions you can take. It could be meaningful in any sort of continuation of plot - if we disregard all of Bioware's indications that we're not dealing with Shepard again.