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[Arvaarad]

It doesn't matter if they got put in chains to me. It's just the fact that any of this is even considered.

I was confused about this at first, but looking back over the posts about the baker, I think there's been a misunderstanding. The first post about the baker implies she'd have gotten in major trouble for what she did, but Solas never says that:

I saw a young Qunari working in a simple kitchen, baking bread as she was ordered every morning. In every loaf she broke the rules. She’d take a pinch of sugar and fold it into the center, like a secret, and this act of small rebellion brought a shining smile to her face.

That's why I've been arguing that she broke a minor rule that nobody cared about or would even enforce. But the paraphrase from the earlier post gives the impression that they were much stricter.

I agree, if there actually were major consequences for such a minor rule, that would make Qunari society seem monstrous.

[Kurogane335]

Except his name is basically "Baker". And so is the guy next to him. And so on.

 

While Orlais at least has a Gerard, Henri, and Louise. And they probably get to dress, crap, and sleep when and how they want to. Possibly even having friends, raising their own children, and having sex in somewhere other than a gloriied religious whorehouse. Perhaps even love, if they're lucky. And their children even get to run around and play and just generally enjoy life like most of the billions of real kids do. And they get to do all of this with the benefit of not having some towering social retard being a debbie downer acting like a Cop to every goddamn thing in their life.

 

Yeah, other than that. Not so different

 

Except that love is perfectly allowed under the Qun. It is just that "**** with someone over a long period of time" isn't a part of it. You can fall in love with someone, but not have sex with his/her. Sure, it is difficult for us to comprehend, but in the end, it is close to the idealistic love that knights were supposed to have for their Ladies. It may actually mean that for the Qunari, being in love with someone of your sex isn't associated with any kind of taboo, since sex (and reproduction) aren't a part of what "love" is.

 

Furthermore, we know next to nothing about how kids are treated under the Qun. Some appears to have very strict childhood from the beginning (like Bull) and others don't (like Hissrad), but it's apparently up to the Tamassran (yes, "up to" like in, she has a choice. Because, as I've said elsewhere, choices are paramount under the Qun, but the ability to evade consequence's from one choice is taken away). I guess that all they have to say is : "My way will make them better servants of the Qun, they won't become Tal-Vashoth. Making good Qunari is a demand of the Qun, and I'm doing just that. Any problem there ?).

 

It is also quite possible that the children born of Viddathari are actually full-blown Qunari for the Tamassran and that the classes the Tama taught to are comprised of people of mixed origins, Horned kids, Elves kids, Human kids and perhaps even some Dwarves kids. I suppose that during the first years, some Tamassran only asses what actually please the children, believing that by carefully grooming them for such roles, they will be better and happier Qunari. Others probably cling to what the kids were breed for and may impose things on the children in their care. But all in all, it is not so different of what parents and teachers do in our world, except that here, there is one Mother for a whole class of children.

 

So far, we have only seen glimpses of the true Qunari society, and what we have seen indicate that they are normal people, with their own doubts, their own pleasures, their own jokes (hell, even Sten and his guys jokes together in the Fade during DA:O. Sten ! Of all people !). And what we have seen from some Codex entries in DA:I is that many Qunari actually doubt, they don't follow the Qun every second of their waking life. But they still follow it overall, just like people in Southern Thedas don't follow every commandment of the Chant of Light, but still follow it overall.

 

I would also like to point out the fallacy in Solas statement concerning the Qunari baker. He says she does that as an act of rebellion, at her level. That's great. Except that if the Qunari don't have cookies, it's because they don't have leftover from when they bake cakes or breads. It means that they are given just the ingredient necessaries to do the rations they are tasked with. Which means that the bakers actually get the supplementary sugar from someone delivering it to her. This person get the sugar from the place it is made into sugar. This place get the sugar from the plantations used to grow plants which produce sugar once transformed.

 

And the supervisors of the baker will note of the extra sugar, and so will do those who get her bread. Before long a Ben-Hassrath will learn of that. And he will do nothing about it, as he has apparently done for quite some time in Solas' example. Why ? Because it is not a rebellion, not even a little. Perhaps the Ben-Hassrath actually love the supplementary sugar in is bread ? Perhaps he simply deem it far too insignificant to be worth of note ? Perhaps he actually believe that the extra sugar provide a very slight marginal input of productivity for the whole society, because the people who get the bread from the baker are actually all the more happy to do their duty and help the baker if need arise ?

 

We don't know what the Ben-Hassrath thinks. But we know one thing for sure : as long as you don't actually undermine the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath won't care about your personal beliefs, how much you care for the complexities of the Qun and all that. That's what I got from the example used by Solas. He wanted to use it to prove that even among drones, some individuality survived. I see it as him not having understood anything about the Qun, the lives of Qunari or the fact that they are actually just as much people than himself or anybody else.

[Navasha]

My guess is you wouldn't like what you see all that much.   Many see the Qun through rose-colored glasses and seemingly cast-off everything negative about them.    They are a dystopian society.   They are a utilitarian society.   This means that most Qun likely live in large community buildings like barracks.   Everyone would be watched incessantly by the secret police to ward off any "thoughts" that are disallowed.    The tenets of the Qun would have to be plastered everywhere as a constant reminder about the Qun.  

 

There is no free thought and free will.    If you aren't working hard enough, you would be replaced by someone that can do the job better.    You are a cog in the machine and that is how society views you.   

[Kurogane335]

We know that the Qunari have houses of their own. They just looks all the same. Like the ones in the suburbs of the United-Kingdom of the U.S. : "In the countryside, Qunari houses are identical and arranged along perfectly orthogonal lines". That's what the wiki said from this Codex Entry. Genitivi tells us that : "It was the most organized village I ever laid eyes on. The houses were identical and arranged along perfectly orthogonal lines. The fields were well tended and apparently communal."

 

From the wiki, we also get that members of the Qunari can have more houses or clothes (even if they don't have personal properties, pet the wiki, which is strange because the two ideas seems incompatible to me, but well) but that it would force them to work mores to achieve and maintain it. What I get from it is that the Qun eradicated poverty this way, which is a considerable achievement, one which, combined with its healthcare system, supersede most of its shortcomings and glaring problems, which must be alleviated without impacting on the majority of the population. After all, for me, to put the needs of the few against the needs of the many is the root of everything evil and rotten in human culture.

[Arvaarad]

We know that the Qunari have houses of their own. They just looks all the same. Like the ones in the suburbs of the United-Kingdom of the U.S. : "In the countryside, Qunari houses are identical and arranged along perfectly orthogonal lines". That's what the wiki said from this Codex Entry. Genitivi tells us that : "It was the most organized village I ever laid eyes on. The houses were identical and arranged along perfectly orthogonal lines. The fields were well tended and apparently communal."

I get some serious Marco Polo vibes from that Genitivi quote, haha. I'm just imagining a Qunari slowly popping up behind him, whispering "they're not communal, that's what industrial farms look like, ya nipnop."

Come to think of it, it's interesting to consider how the trappings of industrialization would be interpreted by medieval/renaissance observers. "As one, they gather in massive, infernally loud buildings to sew garment after garment. Each worker is given strict instructions, from which they must not deviate."

[The Baconer]

We don't know what the Ben-Hassrath thinks. But we know one thing for sure : as long as you don't actually undermine the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath won't care about your personal beliefs, how much you care for the complexities of the Qun and all that. 

 

That isn't true at all. Not to the extent you're trying to imply at least. 

[Kurogane335]

That isn't true at all. Not to the extent you're trying to imply at least. 

Yes it is.

So far, the only cases were we have seen the Ben-Hassrath displaying their secret police activities is against people undermining the Qun directly by their actions :

-Rasaan did it to Isabella because she had stolen the Tome of Koslun. Meanwhile, Varric and Alistair were left alone because they didn't threatened the Qun

-In the Codex Entry from DA:I where there is this guy being beaten to submit again to the Qun, it is made clear that he endures it because he wanted to become Tal-Vashoth and that a Ben-Hassrath was actually killed. Note that when the torture begin, the Ben-Hassrath aren't sure of how far the detainee as decided to reject the Qun, and decide against using qamek

 

There is at least one other Codex Entry about a Qunari not believing in the perfectibility of the Qun at every second of his life but still following it. And then, there is Gatt of course. His Qunari isn't Gatt, because Gatt is a nickname given by Hissrad from the word Gaatlok. Gatt isn't a bunch of living Gaatlok powder mimicking as an elf. Even if he was, his name-title wouldn't be Gaatlok, because Gaatlok is just explosive powder. It means that even among the Ben-Hassrath, agents can give and receive nicknames and be known only through it, if perhaps only with friends. And when you see how Gatt react when Bull has to make the choice to save or not the Chargers, it is clear he care for Bull and see him as a friend. For me, all of this is proof enough that as long as you don't go left and right defaming the Qun, you risk nothing from the Ben-Hassrath. Just like the risk nothing from the Seekers of Truth or the Templars if you have doubts with the Chantry but don't voices them where it could result in the authorities taking actions against you.

[The Baconer]

Yes it is.

So far, the only cases were we have seen the Ben-Hassrath displaying their secret police activities is against people undermining the Qun directly by their actions :

-Rasaan did it to Isabella because she had stolen the Tome of Koslun. Meanwhile, Varric and Alistair were left alone because they didn't threatened the Qun

-In the Codex Entry from DA:I where there is this guy being beaten to submit again to the Qun, it is made clear that he endures it because he wanted to become Tal-Vashoth and that a Ben-Hassrath was actually killed. Note that when the torture begin, the Ben-Hassrath aren't sure of how far the detainee as decided to reject the Qun, and decide against using qamek

 

There is at least one other Codex Entry about a Qunari not believing in the perfectibility of the Qun at every second of his life but still following it. And then, there is Gatt of course. His Qunari isn't Gatt, because Gatt is a nickname given by Hissrad from the word Gaatlok. Gatt isn't a bunch of living Gaatlok powder mimicking as an elf. Even if he was, his name-title wouldn't be Gaatlok, because Gaatlok is just explosive powder. It means that even among the Ben-Hassrath, agents can give and receive nicknames and be known only through it, if perhaps only with friends. And when you see how Gatt react when Bull has to make the choice to save or not the Chargers, it is clear he care for Bull and see him as a friend. For me, all of this is proof enough that as long as you don't go left and right defaming the Qun, you risk nothing from the Ben-Hassrath. Just like the risk nothing from the Seekers of Truth or the Templars if you have doubts with the Chantry but don't voices them where it could result in the authorities taking actions against you.

 

Any worship of a god or gods, such as the Maker, is forbidden and is stopped with violence if necessary. 

[Kurogane335]

That's not so different from what the Chantry does to people who worship the Old Gods, the Elven Gods or convert to the Qun. In DA:II we have seen that murder isn't even out of the potential reaction against converts to the Qun.

[The Baconer]

That's not so different from what the Chantry does to people who worship the Old Gods, the Elven Gods or convert to the Qun. 

 

What the Chantry used to do, anyway. Haven't actually seen that within Dragon Age's timeline. 

 

 

In DA:II we have seen that murder isn't even out of the potential reaction against converts to the Qun.

 

The Chantry didn't do that, but people driven to hatred and paranoia did. 

 

One might say that paranoia would later be justified. 

[Arvaarad]

The Chantry didn't do that, but people driven to hatred and paranoia did.

 

I'm always suspicious when there are two separate explanations depending on which faction did the deed.

 

If the other guys did it: "They were acting completely in line with their principles. Obviously this is just the logical conclusion of their philosophy."

 

If our guys did it: "These were isolated actors, and possibly mentally troubled. They can't be taken as representatives of the whole."

[The Baconer]

I'm always suspicious when there are two separate explanations depending on which faction did the deed.

 

If the other guys did it: "They were acting completely in line with their principles. Obviously this is just the logical conclusion of their philosophy."

 

If our guys did it: "These were isolated actors, and possibly mentally troubled. They can't be taken as representatives of the whole."

 

The Chantry is most certainly not "my guys", but the people who antagonized the Qunari were the same people who killed the heir to Kirkwall's Viscount, tried to have Hawke killed, and murdered a large number of Kirkwall citizens in a false-flag operation. The Chantry couldn't be arsed to do much of anything at all, let alone be complicit. 

 

Now, if they had arranged to blow up multiple heads of state...

[KaiserShep]

Would like to see Qunari society burn. 

 

I'd like to see it go through a violent revolution, and the Tal-Vashoth grow so numerous that Qunari society implodes like this tanker car.

 

[Arvaarad]

The Chantry is most certainly not "my guys", but the people who antagonized the Qunari were the same people who killed the heir to Kirkwall's Viscount, tried to have Hawke killed, and murdered a large number of Kirkwall citizens in a false-flag operation. The Chantry couldn't be arsed to do much of anything at all, let alone be complicit. 

 

Now, if they had arranged to blow up multiple heads of state...

 

The Qun hasn't been doing much of anything either, other than having a slapfight with Tevinter and telling their citizens "Oh no, we're totally going to invade. Someday. When the time is right. The tide rises, the tide falls, yo."

 

Like the Chantry clergy, I expect most of the Qunari leaders really like the status quo, and want to preserve it. People who are currently in power generally like the status quo, because upsetting the status quo has a high chance of ejecting them from power. Oh, they'll make showy moves all the time, stuff that looks tough but is really nothing. And if their country gets into real trouble domestically, they might turn aggressive to turn their people's anger outward, away from them. But typically they try not to disturb the delicate balance that got them into power in the first place.

 

I think there was some element of truth when they said that the Arishok and Viddasala were acting without approval. It wasn't completely true, of course. They may have intentionally kept themselves ignorant of the specifics to avoid confrontation/stirring the pot (Elthina style!). But I don't think there was a top-down initiative of "here is exactly what you need to do for our master plan to succeed, and we're totally going to cut you loose if you fail."

[The Baconer]

The Qun hasn't been doing much of anything either, other than having a slapfight with Tevinter and telling their citizens "Oh no, we're totally going to invade. Someday. When the time is right. The tide rises, the tide falls, yo."

 

Like the Chantry clergy, I expect most of the Qunari leaders really like the status quo, and want to preserve it. People who are currently in power generally like the status quo, because upsetting the status quo has a high chance of ejecting them from power. Oh, they'll make showy moves all the time, stuff that looks tough but is really nothing. And if their country gets into real trouble domestically, they might turn aggressive to turn their people's anger outward, away from them. But typically they try not to disturb the delicate balance that got them into power in the first place.

 

I think there was some element of truth when they said that the Arishok and Viddasala were acting without approval. It wasn't completely true, of course. They may have intentionally kept themselves ignorant of the specifics to avoid confrontation/stirring the pot (Elthina style!). But I don't think there was a top-down initiative of "here is exactly what you need to do for our master plan to succeed, and we're totally going to cut you loose if you fail."

 

Barring the token supernatural-evil-demigod schlock, the Qunari have just made the biggest power play in the Dragon Age, or let it happen under their noses at best. It's one thing to enjoy a status-quo, but the Qunari are unique in being, by far, the most capable in bringing the rest of Thedas under their particular brand of troll logic. 

 

If it's an attempt to control or redirect domestic tensions, then that means its time to sneak in and sow the seeds for a little chaotic upheaval.