283 réponses à ce sujet

[Killroy]

That's because it's not designed to do that. it's "a sealed suit of non-porous ballistic cloth [that] provides kinetic and environmental protection, reinforced by lightweight composite ceramic plates in areas that either don't need to flex or require additional coverage, such as the chest and head." And as evidenced  by the lack of nuclear explosions on impact, the guns don't fire at the force of said explosions either. Well, except maybe the Cain.

Armor is designed to reduce/negate damage from weapons. Why do you think the soldiers fighting Reapers on Earth were wearing armor? And you should really do some kind of research on nuclear bombs. You clearly don't understand what the codex says.

[Former_Fiend]

-snip-

 

See, what we're really arguing about here is tastes. You like a harder form of Sci-Fi than myself and others do. That's fine. 

 

Now, I don't want to see something as ridiculous as Raiden slicing up a multi-story tall mech and then sword-fightng that mech with one of it's severed limbs. I didn't play Revengeance, the game didn't appeal to me because it was that over the top. But I do see a middle ground there where you have a character like the Shadow, Slayer, or Krogan warlord that doesn't break my immersion and is a lot of fun to play, and that's what I'm looking for.

 

You don't like that. But this isn't an argument about what's realistic, this is an argument about what's enjoyable in a sci-fi game. You like things that rate very high on the Mohs scale, I like things that aren't quite so constrained.

 

And besides, if I get to play a melee character in an ME game, that's probably the closest I'm ever going to get to playing a AAA Shadowrun game, so I'm going to pull for it.

[Killroy]

See, what we're really arguing about here is tastes. You like a harder form of Sci-Fi than myself and others do. That's fine. 
 
Now, I don't want to see something as ridiculous as Raiden slicing up a multi-story tall mech and then sword-fightng that mech with one of it's severed limbs. I didn't play Revengeance, the game didn't appeal to me because it was that over the top. But I do see a middle ground there where you have a character like the Shadow, Slayer, or Krogan warlord that doesn't break my immersion and is a lot of fun to play, and that's what I'm looking for.

That's what MP is for.

[Ahglock]

Yeah MP is great for this. You don't have to worry about story, lore, setting, immersion. It's s pure game play based environment.

Single player the shadow as an example would massively break my immersion. And former fiend if this were Shadowrun I'd have no issue with melee focused characters. Its core to their setting but even there they are at a serious disadvantage. The n7 shadow isn't it's in fact overpowered with its melee and can get in melee easily.

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah, but I really don't like playing with others or having to be connected to the internet to play at all. 

 

I suppose them keeping these style of characters MP exclusive would be a way to bait me into playing multiplayer, but it sours both experiences when I'm sitting there playing MP thinking "I wish I could do this in single player" or playing SP thinking "I wish my character could do some of that other cool stuff."

 

Can we at least get the Destroyer and Paladin in SP? Do people have a problem with those?

[Ahglock]

I actually want the soldier to go more destroyer route. As in focus on heavy cybernetic perks instead of ammo powers.

The paladin assuming they balance snap cheese I don't see any issues with.

Smash adept no issues.

The fury I'm on the fence with. Okay with the field but dont like teleporting through wall dodges.

The n7 engineer forget it's name no huge issues with.

To use a Shadowrun reference the shadow is just too pink Mohawk for the setting IMO.

[Malanek]

The Shadow is not in any shape or form overpowered. It would easily be the weakest infiltrator. But it is fun.

 

Snap freeze would have been OK if it had hit detection like Ballistic blades. The real problem is it goes through walls. From memory it was also bugged gaining the +100% combo damage evolution even if you picked the other evolution.

 

They need to be very careful about powers that go through walls, personally I would reduce them a lot, but in saying that I loved Smash (which is ironically another melee like power).

[Mdizzletr0n]

Yeah MP is great for this. You don't have to worry about story, lore, setting, immersion. It's s pure game play based environment.

Single player the shadow as an example would massively break my immersion. And former fiend if this were Shadowrun I'd have no issue with melee focused characters. Its core to their setting but even there they are at a serious disadvantage. The n7 shadow isn't it's in fact overpowered with its melee and can get in melee easily.

I also don't play MP... Not a fan of playing with others in videogames over a internet connection. If your connection sucks...you're fucked.

Also, yes having a melee character would probably come with some sort of disadvantage but I think those that would like that type of class would be fine with that. And people like to throw around "lore" with ME. ME's lore was essentially make it up as you go. It's not like it was strict or anything.

[Former_Fiend]

I would say, in terms of balance, I would expect everything to be rebalanced from what it was. First off, obviously balancing for single player and multiplayer isn't exactly the same thing, and secondly, this is a whole new game, being made from the ground up. These concepts would be included at stage one of development instead of being added in later. 

 

So when I say I want these things to return, it's not necessarily that I want them to be as over or underpowered as they were. I don't expect there to be any correlation between how powerful they were in multiplayer vs how powerful they'd hypothetically be in MEA single player. It's just that I liked it on a conceptual level, I had fun playing it, and I would like my single player protagonist to be able to play with some of these toys.

 

As for the Demolisher(the N7 Engineer), there honestly isn't a whole lot I want from that class. I feel it's primary gimmick, the supply pylon, was somethng that was very heavily geared towards the MP experience and the Horde Mode style in general. It is a turtle class. The elements I do like from it are it's omni-tool gimmicks, with the homing grenade it fires from the omni-tool, and the heavy melee being that it generates an omni-grenade and punches someone to detonate it in a shaped blast. I did like that it wasn't built around the drone, and I'd like to see more of that, but honestly I preferred the Talon Mercenary for engineers. 

 

And I do understand that some of these classes - the Fury, the Talon, the Slayer & Shadow(perhaps ironically) are in that "Pink Mohawk", loud, stylistic, cool realm. But I don't feel that they're too over the top that they break immersion for me, and I enjoy playing as them. So even if they break immersion for other people, I'm going to play it selfish and argue for what I enjoy to make it into the game, because that line of 'immersion breaking' is arbitrary in that it's something that's just going to vary from person to person, and my willing suspension of disbelief is greater than others, I suppose.

[Mdizzletr0n]

I would say, in terms of balance, I would expect everything to be rebalanced from what it was. First off, obviously balancing for single player and multiplayer isn't exactly the same thing, and secondly, this is a whole new game, being made from the ground up. These concepts would be included at stage one of development instead of being added in later.

So when I say I want these things to return, it's not necessarily that I want them to be as over or underpowered as they were. I don't expect there to be any correlation between how powerful they were in multiplayer vs how powerful they'd hypothetically be in MEA single player. It's just that I liked it on a conceptual level, I had fun playing it, and I would like my single player protagonist to be able to play with some of these toys.

As for the Demolisher(the N7 Engineer), there honestly isn't a whole lot I want from that class. I feel it's primary gimmick, the supply pylon, was somethng that was very heavily geared towards the MP experience and the Horde Mode style in general. It is a turtle class. The elements I do like from it are it's omni-tool gimmicks, with the homing grenade it fires from the omni-tool, and the heavy melee being that it generates an omni-grenade and punches someone to detonate it in a shaped blast. I did like that it wasn't built around the drone, and I'd like to see more of that, but honestly I preferred the Talon Mercenary for engineers.

And I do understand that some of these classes - the Fury, the Talon, the Slayer & Shadow(perhaps ironically) are in that "Pink Mohawk", loud, stylistic, cool realm. But I don't feel that they're too over the top that they break immersion for me, and I enjoy playing as them. So even if they break immersion for other people, I'm going to play it selfish and argue for what I enjoy to make it into the game, because that line of 'immersion breaking' is arbitrary in that it's something that's just going to vary from person to person, and my willing suspension of disbelief is greater than others, I suppose.

Suspension of disbelief was broken the moment that Shepard was resurrected for me. At this point, ME:A could have Ultraman as a LI and I wouldn't even be mad. I'd just be a " Welp Ultraman is here too. Whynot?." Lol

[Ahglock]

^^ you should argue for what you want, as I will do the same. My immersion gets broken by these classes hard just as much as if they made a class that actually used fantasy magic or if a n7 soldier showed up in dragon age.

I kind of agree with you on the demolisher but the supply pylon and this class could fill a niche for people who like gun based classes but suck hard enough to run out of ammo. I don't get it, I've never run out or really came close even and I only play insanity and I'm talking about with the soldier which is pretty pure gun. Maybe a infiltrator who only takes a sniper rifle with no back up gun might but I do see people complaining about it fairly often do it does seem to be an issue and just telling them to play a power based class doesn't work as they want to play a shooting class

Onward run on warrior.

[wass12]

Snip

 

Bulletproof and stab-proof is not the same thing. In fact, many early bulletproof vests were very easy to stab through - a weakness evidently shared with Mass Effect hardsuits. After all, why burden the armor with defense against such archaic things as swords?

 

 

 

It does, though. Therein lies the contradiction, and the sword is in fact more powerful than most if not all of said firearms.

 

Using those firearms as blunt weapons is more powerful than using them as firearms. Sometimes, a Predator can kill a man in a single shot, sometimes it needs an entire magazine. In Mass Effect, capacity for damage is clearly not dictated by realism. Hence my request that you show where in the games is explicitly mentioned that hardsuits are effective against high-tech melee weapons. Because so far, the codex doesn't says anything about it, and the gameplay strongly supports the opposite.

[Killroy]

Bulletproof and stab-proof is not the same thing. In fact, many early bulletproof vests were very easy to stab through - a weakness evidently shared with Mass Effect hardsuits. After all, why burden the armor with defense against such archaic things as swords?

Early flak jackets were susceptible to bladed weapons because they were made of fabrics. Mass Effect armor is hard armor designed to withstand impacts magnitudes harder than any modern bullet impact. Blades stabbing through ME armor makes zero sense. An attacker with a sword would be able to stab a sword through the unprotected bits, like the backs of the knees or the underarms, but for a sword to pierce the armor it would have to be shot out of a mass accelerator.

[N7Jamaican]

ME3MP had soo many different playstyles and builds. I am hoping for ME:A single player to have the same feature.  Give us a standard class, BUT with the option to choose our core abilities.  Because a Drell Adept (my favorite MP class, with ability reave) is different than a Human adept. 

[Quarian Master Race]

Bulletproof and stab-proof is not the same thing. In fact, many early bulletproof vests were very easy to stab through - a weakness evidently shared with Mass Effect hardsuits. After all, why burden the armor with defense against such archaic things as swords?

And if those people used thrusting blades and motions that would possibly matter, though I will note that a thrusting blade parting soft, low density woven fibers designed to stop and "catch" blunt bullets is a whole different kettle of fish from actually getting through extemely dense ESAPI plate (or it's ME equivalents, which cover as near as makes no difference the whole body). Rewatch the lower video at the bottom of page 3 to see a piercing blade's effectiveness against even weak bronze plate, and imagine how little it would do to ceramics that are orders of magnitude harder.

They don't use such motions, though outside of Thane's cutscene incompetence (he wasn't wearing armor anyway) and phantom sync kills (which have their own problems of unrealism in going through seemingly several inches of hardened plate and somehow instakilling krogan whom have redundant backup organs with a single thrust). They are all slashing attacks, and thus would be subject to the calculations mentioned. They all use silly katana style blades designed primarily for massacring and oppressing unarmoured and unarmed Japanese peasants, which were shown to be completely, almost laughably ineffective in relation to even single shot, blackpowder muzzleloading firearms held by individuals with no body armour during the Meji Era. If you really were intent on using a sword, you would use a weapon designed for thrusting like a Rapier or smallsword, but that isn't as "cool" as a goddamn flipping space ninja.
 

Using those firearms as blunt weapons is more powerful than using them as firearms. Sometimes, a Predator can kill a man in a single shot, sometimes it needs an entire magazine. In Mass Effect, capacity for damage is clearly not dictated by realism. Hence my request that you show where in the games is explicitly mentioned that hardsuits are effective against high-tech melee weapons. Because so far, the codex doesn't says anything about it, and the gameplay strongly supports the opposite.

Blunt force trauma is a completely different type of injury than laceration. You can kill a fully armoured human with a mace by smacking him in the head hard enough that concussive brain hemmoraging or spinal fracture/ breakage occurs without ever touching flesh, and it isn't that hard to do so. Such an attack having more of an effect on an armored individual than gunfire which is designed to be countered by that armour is not out of the realm of possibility, given the proper amount of kinetic injury. Kai lame would actually make more (though still hardly any) sense carrying a big heavy club, flail or mace, though once again that doesn't look as "cool" as the katana wielding mall ninja apparently.

Slashing weapons apply the same sorts of forces as projectile weapons, only at much smaller energy levels over a larger surface area. If the physics of the ME universe are consistent and reasonably based on the science of the setting, than the results should be predictable. They aren't.

As for the Predator, bullets can have drastically different effects based on where they hit and internal ballistics. A modern .22LR can kill very easily with a shot to the brain, heart or vital arteries, and a .50BMG can be survived if it hits extremities or fails to transfer sufficient energy due to FMJ bullet design. I don't see how this is relevant to a sword's demonstrated physical inability to penetrate armor. 

Why is an explicit codex entry on the specs of swords required? That's an absurd argument. The codex doesn't state many things that happen according to the laws of the universe in game. It can't, since it isn't 50,000 pages long. Examples in gameplay don't mean the lore is not being applied inconsistently, in the same way that the entire galactic fleet coming through the relay in a second for the final battle is not suddenly not inconsistent with Codex descriptions of such a thing requiring several days. It can be a Retcon, but that doesn't make it not inconsistent, it just means that previous lore is explicitly discarded. ME universe physics supposedly operate on the same rules as ours with the exception of Element Zero. Since the mall ninja blades are not described as manipulating "mass effect fields" to increase their force by a factor of several thousand times while simultaneously increasing human muscle and bone strength by the same amount, or whatever other magic to do what they demonstratably shouldn't be able to do, they are inconsistent by the rest of the rules of the universe.

[Former_Fiend]

Early flak jackets were susceptible to bladed weapons because they were made of fabrics. Mass Effect armor is hard armor designed to withstand impacts magnitudes harder than any modern bullet impact. Blades stabbing through ME armor makes zero sense. An attacker with a sword would be able to stab a sword through the unprotected bits, like the backs of the knees or the underarms, but for a sword to pierce the armor it would have to be shot out of a mass accelerator.

 

So if the attack animations specifically focused on the unarmored/lightly armored areas, you'd have less of a problem with it?

[Quarian Master Race]

So if the attack animations specifically focused on the unarmored/lightly armored areas, you'd have less of a problem with it?

I definitely would, but then I would question why one wished to use a slashing weapon for a job better suited to a piercing one, such as a knife, spear or even better a bayonet, the latter of which allows you to maintain most of the advantages of a firearm and a spear.

The thought of someone looking at a table with an M-98 Widow, M-99 Saber, N7 Typhoon, N7 Hurricane, M-300 Claymore, an M-11 Suppressor and an Arc Pistol, then going "you know what, I think the best course of action is a katana" is still hardly any less ridiculous. Combat? Not a chance I'm taking the weapon that is drastically less lethal at all ranges (because you can aim for "weak points" with a bullet as well, and more easily than with a sword I might add), but especially ranges from one meter to 2 or 3 kilometers. Stealth? Why bother with the blade and its pathetic range requriments when I can just shoot them even more quietly from cover and concealment? 

Edit: we are also ignoring that the "ballistic cloth" under the plates also is said to have some resistance to bullets in the MEverse, which are granular in size and likely have a lower or comparable surface area to a blade point while carrying hundreds if not thousands of times as much energy, so it isn't a given that piercing blades should have any effect on this material either. Slashing blades certainly wouldn't, seeing as they can't defeat modern Kevlar (or even 4,000 year old hardened leather).

[Killroy]

So if the attack animations specifically focused on the unarmored/lightly armored areas, you'd have less of a problem with it?

It would be equally as silly as the sword stabbing through the armor since you would have to ninja around in an absurd way to get your sword in those vulnerable areas. It would be like in ASoIaF when Oberyn Martell fought the Mountain, but if the Mountain had an assault rifle and wasn't a giant. No sensible person would attempt it. It carries inherent, extreme risk and has no real upside since a gun and distance would be more safe and effective.

[Killroy]

Here's a question for the pro-katana people: If you can get close enough to impale someone with a katana, why wouldn't you just get that close and press a gun to your target, avoiding their kinetic barriers, and fire? A sword literally has no advantage over simply pressing a gun directly onto your target before firing so why use it.

[Ahglock]

For me assuming human protagonist I don't see melee viable with current MP options.

Now that isn't saying I can't see something as possible. On the tech side I just don't see it. Yeah I guess they can invent new item made of fakeium or whatever but still don't see it.

Biotic. I can see. I could see a melee tree where you can have biotically charged blows that prime and detonate objects and people you strike. Like standard blows primed targets heavy melee acted as a detonator. Let's assume adept where light melee dropped a weak singulaity or warp with a very short duration and heavy followed up with a throw effect.

I'd keep it on adept as with a vanguard it's too easy to get into melee and if you want speedy melee destruction it should not be that easy to close on your enemies. Or alternately if on a vanguard it just hits a lot weaker so a shotgun with its limited ammo outpaced the damage by a solid margin or I should say even larger margin as the shotgun should even trump the adept.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not married to the katana-style blade, myself. I don't have a hate-on for it, but I wouldn't have a problem with a different type of blade being used.

 

As for why I'd take that option instead of a point blank shot from a fire arm, I could prattle off some justifications about it conserving ammo, being less noisy than a gun shot, whatever. Fact is, I just find it more viscerally enjoyable to kill an enemy with a melee weapon than with a gun. If it's implemented in a way that it does put me at a significant disadvantage to use melee as opposed to shooting at range, I'm still going to use melee because it's more fun. 

 

Sensibility can go jump off a ledge for all I care.

[Vespervin]

You people are still going on about this option? Haha. I love this community.

[Killroy]

I'm not married to the katana-style blade, myself. I don't have a hate-on for it, but I wouldn't have a problem with a different type of blade being used.
 
As for why I'd take that option instead of a point blank shot from a fire arm, I could prattle off some justifications about it conserving ammo, being less noisy than a gun shot, whatever. Fact is, I just find it more viscerally enjoyable to kill an enemy with a melee weapon than with a gun. If it's implemented in a way that it does put me at a significant disadvantage to use melee as opposed to shooting at range, I'm still going to use melee because it's more fun. 
 
Sensibility can go jump off a ledge for all I care.

And so can good game design, apparently.

[Killroy]

You people are still going on about this option? Haha. I love this community.

 

You could justify anything being in the game by saying "it's just an option." Why not add optional superpowers, like flight and laser eyes? Or big, floppy fallace weapons like in Saints Row? Or lightsabers? Or Batman?

 

If your design philosophy is "yeah, sure. Whatever" you're making crap. "Yeah, sure. Whatever" is how we got Red, Blue and Green.

[Fredward]

Rule of Cool tho, katanas are cool ergo they should be in the game and **** logic. No but really. Swords ftw.