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[Hiemoth]

LiS has its own mehem (massive spoilers naturally ):



I think the difference is is that in me3 the ending bears no reflection on the choices or experience of shepherd.

 

Why do they keep doing these? Besides, how would this ending work at all in the themes of the game?

 

Besides, ME3 end choice bears as much reflection on the defining choices of Shepard. The Shepard who made all those other choices is the one who makes that choice and it reflects the story the player has told through their Shepard, what matters to him/her and what is the right choice. It is a question of how much one likes the execution, that's always another discussion, but as an approach they're the same. Just because one likes one more than other than doesn't change their fundamental approach.

[von uber]

That's intended as a joke

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that I have not seen as convincing relationship in mass effect as chloe and max.

[sjsharp2011]

That's intended as a joke

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that I have not seen as convincing relationship in mass effect as chloe and max.

 

 

Yeah *I agreethe 2 of them were like sisters. I think the closest Bioware have come to havign that kindof relationship I think come to that was in DA2 with Hawke and Bethany really and of course they were in that instance

[KaiserShep]

That's intended as a joke
Anyway, I think it's fair to say that I have not seen as convincing relationship in mass effect as chloe and max.

To be fair, the dynamic between Max and Chloe is dependent on the history they have prior. BioWare companions typically have only known your PC for maybe a few months. That said, hopefully the new lot are better at this, though I greatly enjoyed the Inquisition and ME3 group.

[goishen]

Too many of them have superficial flaws, like jack for example. There's no way on this planet in the space of 6 months she'd end up being a teacher responsible for kids (and that happens even without the curative penis).
Frank for example is an amoral drug dealer. At no point does he stop being that, and the only time he might possibly see the ramifications of his actions are

Spoiler

if you tell him that his drugs might have been used to kill rachel

. But even then he doesn't start up an orphanage as if he was a bioware charachter - like the criminal you can let go in me1 who becomes a social worker on omega.

 

Ahhh, okay, so you're talking about no character having a redemption moment.  Got'cha.  Well, ME kind'a did have that with Sha'ira. 

 

Spoiler

So if there was no catalyst character (the citadel is just the firing mechanism, but to arm it correctly you had to sacrifice say X members or earth gets destroyed) that might be closest. And maybe better inkeeping with the message of ME.

 

Oh yah, I can see it now.  Instead of 20% coming and screaming about the end, it would be damn near closer to 60%.

[KaiserShep]

There's Sha'ira, but she's pretty boring, has no meaningful part in any plot thread, and cannot be killed. Plus, her advice at the casino sucked. "Win". Well duh, trick! I ain't come here to lose.

[Hiemoth]

That's intended as a joke

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that I have not seen as convincing relationship in mass effect as chloe and max.

 

I see so many of those that currently even as jokes they somewhat frustrate me.

 

And you are correct about ME having nothing like Chloe and Max, although for me Shepard and Garrus actually come surprisingly close, but I also think it is not really a fair comparison. That relationship is a central focus of LiS, with the end choice utterly built on that relationship. Thus the game naturally spends a lot more resources establishing that relationships where ME games which has to juggle several relationships which are not as central to the main plot could.

[JamieCOTC]

Both have the same endings, though LiS did it 1000 times better. IMO. In LiS there is no speculation, but you still have mystery and the weirdness factor. In LiS Chloe does give Max the ending choice, but the choice is concrete, not full of pseudo-symbolism. In LiS you get Max as defined by the NPCs. In ME3, Shepard is defined by a kid she sees for 20 seconds. Hindsight is always 20/20, however.

[von uber]

And you are correct about ME having nothing like Chloe and Max, although for me Shepard and Garrus actually come surprisingly close, but I also think it is not really a fair comparison. That relationship is a central focus of LiS, with the end choice utterly built on that relationship. Thus the game naturally spends a lot more resources establishing that relationships where ME games which has to juggle several relationships which are not as central to the main plot could.

 

But that is largely of Bioware's own making. They potentially had three games to develop relationships with characters; instead they junked a lot of them in ME2 and again in ME3.

The only 'main' consistent ones are Garrus and Liara (Tali is pretty much a footnote), and one of them can be dead with the other written in the third one like you hardly know her - especially in the light of all the relationship building you can do in LotSB.

Think about it   - in the case of Liara for example you can potentially have a serious relationship with Liara, confirmed through fire and death and yet by the third one she is 'oh yeah, I could have visited you in prison but. meh' and then be greeted by the classic 'oh let's be friends'.

 

There are too many characters, too many that are killable early on, and those that are more likely to be alive and are developed keep going backwards or have personality transfers.

 

So no, it's largely of Bioware's own making that there are no relationships as well developed.

[Hiemoth]

But that is largely of Bioware's own making. They potentially had three games to develop relationships with characters; instead they junked a lot of them in ME2 and again in ME3.

The only 'main' consistent ones are Garrus and Liara (Tali is pretty much a footnote), and one of them can be dead with the other written in the third one like you hardly know her - especially in the light of all the relationship building you can do in LotSB.

Think about it   - in the case of Liara for example you can potentially have a serious relationship with Liara, confirmed through fire and death and yet by the third one she is 'oh yeah, I could have visited you in prison but. meh' and then be greeted by the classic 'oh let's be friends'.

 

There are too many characters, too many that are killable early on, and those that are more likely to be alive and are developed keep going backwards or have personality transfers.

 

So no, it's largely of Bioware's own making that there are no relationships as well developed.

 

But they did use three games to develop those characters, especially with Joker, Garrus and Tali, despite the odd effort to dismiss the last. Even Liara's character arc is largely consistent. And a lot of those relationship are well-developed. Shepard's relationship with Garrus is pure awesome, for example, and the interaction and past with Tali is always there with the Rannoch missions.

 

The problem you are referring to is also not Bioware dropping the ball but rather you ignoring the fundamental difference between the LiS episodes and the ME trilogy. Each ME game is an independent game marketed as something a new player can use to start with. So for them to have each relationship in ME3 to be only comprehensible if you had played the two previous games would essentially create a very targeted market and be a really dumb approach when trying to increase the amount of people playing the game.

[von uber]

The problem you are referring to is also not Bioware dropping the ball but rather you ignoring the fundamental difference between the LiS episodes and the ME trilogy. Each ME game is an independent game marketed as something a new player can use to start with. So for them to have each relationship in ME3 to be only comprehensible if you had played the two previous games would essentially create a very targeted market and be a really dumb approach when trying to increase the amount of people playing the game.

 

It's amazing how other games manage to have characters with old friends in it isn't it! I wonder how they do it?

[Hiemoth]

It's amazing how other games manage to have characters with old friends in it isn't it! I wonder how they do it?

 

Care to name an example RPG where they were able to carry that a central relationship through while also successfully reflecting the many changes affecting those relationships?

[von uber]

Care to name an example RPG where they were able to carry that a central relationship through while also successfully reflecting the many changes affecting those relationships?

 

I don't know off the top of my head, I haven't played that many. But it cannot be beyond the wit of man or massive developer with large resources to accomplish. It is just writing skill.

[Hiemoth]

I don't know off the top of my head, I haven't played that many. But it cannot be beyond the wit of man or massive developer with large resources to accomplish. It is just writing skill.

 

Except you keep missing the point that is resource focus issue. The reason LiS was able to spend so much resources fleshing out the Max/Chloe relationship is because it is central the main story they are telling. Shepard/Garrus relationship, while awesome, is not central to the ME trilogy and thus doesn't get the same proportional amount of resources and focus.

 

Besides, I think that every time some body dismisses something as that it should just be simple in game development, I assume a dev somewhere bangs their head against a wall.

[von uber]

No - I get what you mean about it being a resource issue, hence I said they had too many characters. That diluted the rest. Look at all the stand ins they had to do for the ME2 cast in ME3. Even the VS created issues as they had to double write the part. Bioware made the rod for their own back here I'm afraid.

[goishen]

Right, but even if they had kept the same cast it wouldn't have worked.  While great for the people of ME1, new players like me would've been lost from the get go. 

 

The M&C relationship worked for two different reasons.  

 

1.  It was the same game. 

 

2.  There really was no one else. 

 

The same can't be said true of ME on either of those counts.  EDIT :  And they feed off of each other.  Meaning that there were so little characters in the game that had a good amount of screen time, that you knew that Chloe had something to do with the ending.

[von uber]

Not sure why you would be lost though. For example, James is introduced as a friend at the start of ME3.

 

I don't' disagree that it was easier for LiS, I just think Bioware made it much harder for themselves.

[AlanC9]

I don't know off the top of my head, I haven't played that many. But it cannot be beyond the wit of man or massive developer with large resources to accomplish. It is just writing skill.

And the willingness to burn that many resources.

[Ariella]

Besides, I think that every time some body dismisses something as that it should just be simple in game development, I assume a dev somewhere bangs their head against a wall.

Nah... more like what happens when you say 'I don't believe in fairies.'

[Arcian]

Don't choose an incredibly lame title for your product?

And how is Mass Effect better?

 

You know what, don't even answer that. I have enough brain cancer as it is.

[von uber]

One thing I have (re-learned) is not to trust most major main stream review sites (like gamespot for example) as based on their reviews for this game it's apparently one of the worst of the year, yet the latest asscreed copy paste is a solid 9 or 10.

Hmmmmmm.

Makes me wary (again! ) of ME:A coming out. Obviously I know it is only an opinion, but sadly people use these sites as a basis to buy things, and developers to make things.

[SnakeCode]

Don't choose an incredibly lame title for your product?

 

They should have called it 'Game Is Crap.'

[Innocent Bystander]

That when you promise 'Multiple endings depending on the choices you make. ' and then discard all those choices at last possible moment, people will be pissed. That said I absolutely love LiS, it's the best game I've played this year (and I'd bet my right testicle that Fallout 4 won't best it) and have no problems whatsoever with said endings. Yes, they're totally lame and predictable, but unlike ME3's, they make sense.

Also almost forgot, Ashly Burch is amazeballs.

[Black Jimmy]

That Life is... weird...

 

I dunno. Have an Asari character through Hella into every sentence.

 

I chose the other ending, because f uck fate.

 

 

 

Uh....mention there are spoilers in the thread title by the way.

[KaiserShep]

One thing I have (re-learned) is not to trust most major main stream review sites (like gamespot for example) as based on their reviews for this game it's apparently one of the worst of the year, yet the latest asscreed copy paste is a solid 9 or 10.
Hmmmmmm.
Makes me wary (again! ) of ME:A coming out. Obviously I know it is only an opinion, but sadly people use these sites as a basis to buy things, and developers to make things.

I'm glad that I bought the game on impulse. No way was I feeling the loss of $5, but the game easily became one of my favorites. That said, the gamespot review isn't so bad. Despite the criticism, it still seems to make the game look pretty intriguing.