267 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

I recall a lot of people complaining DA2 about:

1) Reuse of levels.

2) Swarms of enemies that appeared out of nowhere.

3) Kirkwall was lifeless and boring.

4) All the romances were bisexual.

5) Pointless sidequests.

6) The personality of Hawke being bipolar and some dialogue options not making any sense.

7) Meredith and Orsino were not great antagonists/villains.

8) The time skips.

9) The lack of custionamtion to Hawke's armor, weapons, house,

10) The characterization was weak for all the characters,

11) The combat sucked.

12) Most of the redesigns sucked in particular Flemeth, the elves, and the darkspawn. With some not sure of the new look for the Qunari due to Stern's appearance.

13) It was too short.

14) Hawke was too passive at the end,

15) The ending sucked.

16) The DLC was lackluster (IMHO Mark of the Assassin and Legacy were excellant).

Not a open world wasn't in that list as far as I can tell.

Skyrim was big the developers made some comments about borrowing from that. A lot of people had issues with that idea, some were for it. I fell into the cautiously optimistic camp. I like open world games. But when done right. Big isn't a big enough selling point. for me the draw of open worlds is a sand box environment. Without that it's just not worth it, it's a pointless big.

[The Hierophant]

I recall a lot of people complaining DA2 about:

 

1) Reuse of levels.

 

2) Swarms of enemies that appeared out of nowhere.

 

3) Kirkwall was lifeless and boring. 

 

4) All the romances were bisexual.

 

5) Pointless sidequests.

 

6) The personality of Hawke being bipolar and some dialogue options not making any sense.

 

7) Meredith and Orsino were not great antagonists/villains.

 

8) The time skips.

 

9) The lack of custionamtion to Hawke's armor, weapons, house,

 

10) The characterization was weak for all the characters,

 

11) The combat sucked.

 

12) Most of the redesigns sucked in particular Flemeth, the elves, and the darkspawn. With some not sure of the new look for the Qunari due to Stern's appearance.  

 

13) It was too short.

 

14) Hawke was too passive at the end,

 

15) The ending sucked.

 

16) The DLC was lackluster (IMHO Mark of the Assassin and Legacy were excellant).

Arguably everything minus 3 and 5 were rectified in DAI.  If only Bio could improve on their implementation of sidequests, the npc's ai, and their animations. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Smells a bit like a troll thread by the OP, but eh, I've seen great conversations come out of far less intelligent ideas. This is a good conversation to have.

I apologize for the length in advance.

I enjoyed the some of the exploration in DA:I, and I am overall a fan of the game. There was a few areas that really ticked me off that are relevant to this thread. The problem for me was threefold:

1) The Requistion Table was a badly implemented idea. I can see what they were trying to go with, but with a few exceptions, had zero impact on the main story line. It felt like busy work. The various little sidequests were okay by me, but that table can go die in a fire.

2) The War Table felt like the "reward" for all of that busy work, and it left a poor taste in my mouth. Don't get me wrong; I'm a lore nerd. Pretty much any game series I'm into (not an Elder Scrolls fan, but that's just me,) I'll dig into the lore. I like having lore in my games, but I felt like the War Table was a way to pad the game out.

3) The combination of the two left a feeling like it was a way to get more zones. Whether it be a MMO or a single player game, adding more stuff for the sake of it is not usually a great idea. I know there was a lot of lore, but it was overshadowed greatly by the WT and RT. That led to some major tedium.

Even more than the zone tables, watching the quests my IQ couldn't do because she was out collecting herbs and turning in excess drops took away from my enjoyment of the game. On my first IQ at least; I skipped those RT quests on my second IQ.

I personally don't think that some of the exploration elements in DA:I had very much to do with the BW fans. I think that, for one, Skyrim was hugely sucessful and it makes sense that RPGs would want to emulate that. As someone pointed out earlier, it's like the CoD for RPGs and that fits quite well.

However, something that can be easy to forget is that the BW developers are gamers, and play a lot of these games as well. Some of them have talked about being fans of the game. Sure, I'm betting money and success of TES played a factor, without a doubt in my mind. On the other hand, I think it was a case of gamers trying to incorporate elements they liked from a game they played into their own game. I commend the effort, and I think their heart was in the right place.

Frankly though, it didn't work out as well as it should have. Yeah yeah, I know, understatement for some, but that was one of my biggest beefs about the game. It's part of the reason why I never got into the TES series as a whole. For my taste, there was too much exploration and sidequests left the game's main plot crashing to a halt. I know that isn't true for everyone, it's just my perspective. That being said, exploration is TES strongest suit, and nothing wrong with loving it. My dad has been a TES fan since the first game in 1994. Still, that has never been a strong suit of BioWare's.

If we want to get into BW's history in general, and if they are thinking more "open-world/huge sandbox" for ME:A they should take another look at the BG games. That hit the sweet spot for me in terms of exploration (including the risk of sudden death) and lore expansion. Well, except for gathering my party before I ventured forth. BG isn't my favorite series by BioWare, but I always thought they did exploration "right" for my taste. That's just my two cents.

Sorry about the wall of text there. It is something I've been thinking about quite a bit lately.

TL;DR: Usually I never do these, but this is a huge post. In my opinion, I don't want them be like Skyrim, or DA:I. I thought that ME2 and ME3 were too limited. They should be more like the BG series in terms of exploration, and using zones to expand the lore. As was said before, less zones, and give the player a more tightly focused narrative.

When I hear "bigger than Skyrim," I roll my eyes. I don't give a crap who's bigger, it's how you use it that counts.

[AlanC9]

Are ME2 and BG2 all that different in the way they approach this? You've got discrete zones that you travel to for particular missions.

[Grieving Natashina]

Are ME2 and BG2 all that different in the way they approach this? You've got discrete zones that you travel to for particular missions.

I was more referring to BG1. There was a lot of room for exploration in the zones. For a more recent example, I thought that the Storm Coast worked out very well in DA:I. There was a lot of sidequests that had some nice lore moments; plenty of areas that we apart of the main story (like Red Water, which the red lyrium is directly apart of the plot,) Varric's personal quest, and all in all I thought that worked out well. Unlike others in the game, but I won't get into that for now.

Anyhow, in BG1, there were plenty of zones you were directed to for the plot. However, go too far off of the beaten path, no matter your level, and there could be a lich waiting for you in a cave. Or one of my old school favorites, beholders.

BG2 was a little less focused on wider exploration, but you still had the freedom to find those side areas within some of those huge zones. You were directed to those zones by the plot, which I liked. Every zone I visited had a clear and direct tie into the larger plot, something I cannot say DA:I executed very well. I found the sidequests interesting, unlike the RT and WT (the latter of which had stories and text quests that blew many of the actual sidequests out of the water.)

I could also wander around at my own risk. To me, that was half the fun, but it wasn't so huge that I felt that main story disconnect. Sadly, there was zones in DA:I that were so far away from the plot that I found myself unable to care as much at times. I prefer fewer zones that are packed with a nice amount of exploration (Storm Coast, Hinterlands both come to mind for me,) as well a direct tie to the plot.

You asked about ME2, and the big difference for me personally is that I can't go exploring outside of the very specific and narrow area where the mission takes place. I thought that was far too limiting, and I would have welcomed the chance to explore some areas further, like Haestrom. The game was very linear in terms of the mission layouts. Pretty much just follow the hallway, with a few deadends. No going off of the specific path that was laid out for the player. Please don't get me wrong though. It is my favorite entry in the ME series so far. However, from a gameplay perspective, that is one of my larger nitpicks.

I would personally enjoy a middle ground between ME2's approach on exploration and DA:I's. The BG series, particularly the first one, hit the right balance for me personally.

I feel that the devs at BioWare as a whole should go take a look at their older games for exploration ideas. They can and have been good with an open sandbox without being too huge...or without incorporating everything they want into a game at once.

BioWare needs to be BioWare. They should look to themselves and their past, and not try to wedge Skyrim-like exploration into their games. It feels awkward. It's like...coming up with a new cupcake. Sometimes the ingredients taste great separately, but don't always work well together. That's just my take on it though. <shrug>

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't want them to copy any of their older games directly. That would be silly and I wouldn't want that to happen. I would expect them to keep innovating, but I would like them to see what they could improve upon that has worked well for them in the past as well. I think there is some overlooked ideas/methods regarding exploration from their older games that have been dismissed for the sake of what's new and shiny at the moment.

[KingofTime]

Good no great ideas in this thread. Might read them later.

[GaroTD]

For me Skyrim is boring. BW should do something with more plot. 

[Seraphim24]

I was more referring to BG1. There was a lot of room for exploration in the zones. For a more recent example, I thought that the Storm Coast worked out very well in DA:I. There was a lot of sidequests that had some nice lore moments; plenty of areas that we apart of the main story (like Red Water, which the red lyrium is directly apart of the plot,) Varric's personal quest, and all in all I thought that worked out well. Unlike others in the game, but I won't get into that for now.

Anyhow, in BG1, there were plenty of zones you were directed to for the plot. However, go too far off of the beaten path, no matter your level, and there could be a lich waiting for you in a cave. Or one of my old school favorites, beholders.

BG2 was a little less focused on wider exploration, but you still had the freedom to find those side areas within some of those huge zones. You were directed to those zones by the plot, which I liked. Every zone I visited had a clear and direct tie into the larger plot, something I cannot say DA:I executed very well. I found the sidequests interesting, unlike the RT and WT (the latter of which had stories and text quests that blew many of the actual sidequests out of the water.)

I could also wander around at my own risk. To me, that was half the fun, but it wasn't so huge that I felt that main story disconnect. Sadly, there was zones in DA:I that were so far away from the plot that I found myself unable to care as much at times. I prefer fewer zones that are packed with a nice amount of exploration (Storm Coast, Hinterlands both come to mind for me,) as well a direct tie to the plot.

You asked about ME2, and the big difference for me personally is that I can't go exploring outside of the very specific and narrow area where the mission takes place. I thought that was far too limiting, and I would have welcomed the chance to explore some areas further, like Haestrom. The game was very linear in terms of the mission layouts. Pretty much just follow the hallway, with a few deadends. No going off of the specific path that was laid out for the player. Please don't get me wrong though. It is my favorite entry in the ME series so far. However, from a gameplay perspective, that is one of my larger nitpicks.

I would personally enjoy a middle ground between ME2's approach on exploration and DA:I's. The BG series, particularly the first one, hit the right balance for me personally.

I feel that the devs at BioWare as a whole should go take a look at their older games for exploration ideas. They can and have been good with an open sandbox without being too huge...or without incorporating everything they want into a game at once.

BioWare needs to be BioWare. They should look to themselves and their past, and not try to wedge Skyrim-like exploration into their games. It feels awkward. It's like...coming up with a new cupcake. Sometimes the ingredients taste great separately, but don't always work well together. That's just my take on it though. <shrug>

Edit: Just to be clear, I don't want them to copy any of their older games directly. That would be silly and I wouldn't want that to happen. I would expect them to keep innovating, but I would like them to see what they could improve upon that has worked well for them in the past as well. I think there is some overlooked ideas/methods regarding exploration from their older games that have been dismissed for the sake of what's new and shiny at the moment.

 
To be entirely fair, this is still mostly true for BG1.
 
Anyway, also there weren’t any beholders in BG1, only in BG2 as part of what the poster described directed missions during the Underdark.
There were things like that though for sure like a Soothsayer in one of the western empty exploration zones, or running into Drizzt fighting gnolls (who I always assassinated for the super scimitars)
 
There were also things like that in KOTOR or NWN or probably JE for all I know (did not play), where you would find lightsaber crystals in a cave or whatever off to the side. NWN also was part of an era now gone in (well AAA) RPGs when buildings weren’t just for decoration but had actual doors you could open and go inside to find things and talk to people.
 
Cloakwood was designed purely as a level stage campaign mission, and was the 4 zones to the NW, everything from Beregost to Nashkel and the mines, was a level stage campaign mission to the mines, everything north of Beregost was arcing towards the Baldur’s Gate sequence, which then became entirely linear, and much like the later Candlekeep sequence was entirely linear. It was expected players would go from Candlekeep to the crossroads, come across Xzar and Montaron, then go north to Jaheira and Khalid, etc.
 
Plus, while it is nice to have entirely empty zones which serve no other purpose than to fuel the sense of exploration, to make them completely empty aside from a single hobgoblin thief demanding tolls or a runaway Drow cleric is a bit… well… underserving the notion. The ratio of moving around to things is kind of low.  
 
It was nice that you didn’t have to guarantee running into a quest marker every time you did something like ME3 or whatever, where you can count the number of side quests on one hand, but everytime I looked at that BG1 map and considered the possibilities and a few successful moments, after a few duds like those damn generic rocky zones to the SW I would invariably end up back on the “critical path” in no time and found myself going head to head with the next level boss.
 
It was better balanced than some later Bioware games, but conceptually it’s not all that different from KOTOR or NWN which simply stripped away the empty zones and consolidated the clearly indicated campaign ones. It was clear that as their first game they were more invested in making it like other existing games at Interplay such as Black Isle games or the D&D license properties, but without truly understanding the concepts at the deepest level.

 

It was a cool first effort and all but it’s clear they were under a lot of duress and also being a first game they didn’t have a super coherent vision,  hence founder Ray Muzyka’s gravestone joke in Nashkel “This game will be the death of me.”
 
Basically, your instinct that this was more the case was somewhat true but despite having promoted BG at various times it really can’t be tied very well to the BG series any more than some of the other classical Bioware period games like NWN or even the expansions to NWN like HotU which featured a rather large array of bells and whistles for example just in that small cross-roads like zone that was a junction between the various campaign missions or the final town in the nine hells which had probably around 4-5 mini quests involving various creatures and the denizens in what was actually a fairy small area, in addition to multiple ways to complete the main mission, and neither can it be wholly divorced from the sort of “5 zones and a city” formula of many Bioware games despite the pretense due to the precise nature of the implementation.
 
In fact, you could argue something like SWTOR is closer to a classical Bioware period game in many ways with sort of like stumbling across a heroic area, monster, or datachron, despite being a much more recent game.
 
The main thing BG stands out for really is because of Throne of Bhaal expansion which was the earliest incarnation of the Dragon Age 2 extreme epic fantasy that they would later become known for more decisively in, well, Dragon Age 2, and for at least their attempt at creating a semblance of open world strategems but which eventually became NWN and KOTOR in a clearer and more crystallized form.
 
Tomoko was a pretty cool side character too actually now that I think about it, the idea of someone who was devoted in this not parasitic or otherwise insanely zealous follower of the main boss, it seems like she got shuttered away in favor of the Khalid’s and Jaheira’s by BG2 but it was part of an era when there characterization wasn’t always so strictly generic or stereotypy.

 

So ultimately do not want to dismiss either of your points, it's a bit of stretch to say that BG1 was this D&D like experience where you never knew what was around every turn and there was plundering and treasure hunting to be had about the rocks and hills, but if you look closely it's true that Bioware was more committed to that sense of openness earlier on and by the time of ME and DA they are more iterating on a theme of 5 zones and a city than a D&D situation (or even just a slice of a city, as with the Citadel in ME3).

[Sylvius the Mad]

I was more referring to BG1. There was a lot of room for exploration in the zones. For a more recent example, I thought that the Storm Coast worked out very well in DA:I. There was a lot of sidequests that had some nice lore moments; plenty of areas that we apart of the main story (like Red Water, which the red lyrium is directly apart of the plot,) Varric's personal quest, and all in all I thought that worked out well. Unlike others in the game, but I won't get into that for now.

Anyhow, in BG1, there were plenty of zones you were directed to for the plot. However, go too far off of the beaten path, no matter your level, and there could be a lich waiting for you in a cave. Or one of my old school favorites, beholders..

The difference in approach to exploration is a big part of why I think BG is vastly superior to BG2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mobile DP

[Sylvius the Mad]

It was expected players would go from Candlekeep to the crossroads, come across Xzar and Montaron, then go north to Jaheira and Khalid, etc.

It may have been expected, but it wasn't necessary.

The first time I played BG, Imoen and I got off the road as soon as we could after the ambush, because staying on the road seemed foolish. I went south. Staying off the road, I moved toward the nearest town, Beregost. On the way, I met my next companion, Kivan. He wanted to go kill some ogres to the south (having previously encountered Droth the Ogre Mage, I was reluctant). Also, I heard about the disappearance of Bassilus and Brage. Heading south, I found Minsc and Edwin, both of whom wanted to go west to the Gnoll Stronghold.

I had no idea what the main quest was at this point. Any of this might have been relevant. Around this time, I also completed the Nashkel Mines, but didn't read Mulahey's notes, so was unaware of any follow-up quest.

That's how these games should work. The plot shouldn't be obvious until after the fact. Our feet should not be placed on a linear path with nowhere else to go.

[Ahglock]

^

Well said. That's what hooked me on BG.

[Mdizzletr0n]

Sounds like I need to REALLY need to cneck out that mobile port of Baldur's Gate. Sounds intriguing.

[KotorEffect3]

Oh for crying out loud.

[Addictress]

I recall a lot of people complaining DA2 about:

1) Reuse of levels.

2) Swarms of enemies that appeared out of nowhere.

3) Kirkwall was lifeless and boring.

4) All the romances were bisexual.

5) Pointless sidequests.

6) The personality of Hawke being bipolar and some dialogue options not making any sense.

7) Meredith and Orsino were not great antagonists/villains.

8) The time skips.

9) The lack of custionamtion to Hawke's armor, weapons, house,

10) The characterization was weak for all the characters,

11) The combat sucked.

12) Most of the redesigns sucked in particular Flemeth, the elves, and the darkspawn. With some not sure of the new look for the Qunari due to Stern's appearance.

13) It was too short.

14) Hawke was too passive at the end,

15) The ending sucked.

16) The DLC was lackluster (IMHO Mark of the Assassin and Legacy were excellant).

And all of these are wrong. Thanks.

Meredith and Orsino were amazing.

[AlanC9]

I
BG2 was a little less focused on wider exploration, but you still had the freedom to find those side areas within some of those huge zones. You were directed to those zones by the plot, which I liked. Every zone I visited had a clear and direct tie into the larger plot, something I cannot say DA:I executed very well. I found the sidequests interesting, unlike the RT and WT (the latter of which had stories and text quests that blew many of the actual sidequests out of the water.)

I follow most of your argument, but this loses me. The only connection, say, the d'Arnise keep has to the BG2 plot is that you need to raise cash. If that counts as a tie to the larger plot, then anything in DA:I which grants Power counts.

[AlanC9]

I had no idea what the main quest was at this point. Any of this might have been relevant. Around this time, I also completed the Nashkel Mines, but didn't read Mulahey's notes, so was unaware of any follow-up quest.

How'd you get back on the path without reading the notes? IIRC the bandit camp doesn't show on the map before the triggering conditions are met.

[Sylvius the Mad]

How'd you get back on the path without reading the notes? IIRC the bandit camp doesn't show on the map before the triggering conditions are met.

I had been using a dresser in Beregost to store all my excess potions. By chance, that was the room where Tranzig appears after you kill Mulahey. So I ran into Tranzig entirely unexpectedly, and then I was on the questline.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I follow most of your argument, but this loses me. The only connection, say, the d'Arnise keep has to the BG2 plot is that you need to raise cash. If that counts as a tie to the larger plot, then anything in DA:I which grants Power counts.

My objection to the BG2 design is that it's not possible to just wander off and stumble onto d'Arnise Hold. You cannot travel there until you've been sent there.

This is where BG and DAI are superior to all other BioWare games.

[FKA_Servo]

And all of these are wrong. Thanks.

Meredith and Orsino were amazing.

 

I am as big a DA2 cheerleader as you're likely to find anywhere, and not all of those things are wrong.

[Kalas Magnus]

And all of these are wrong. Thanks.

Meredith and Orsino were amazing.

the game needed more meredith

[Ariella]

the game needed more meredith

 

Yes, yes it did. The only bad thing about Meredith was she was tragically underused until the end of act 2. We saw her once and heard about her a lot, but saw nada. Which is a damned shame.

[Seraphim24]

It may have been expected, but it wasn't necessary.

The first time I played BG, Imoen and I got off the road as soon as we could after the ambush, because staying on the road seemed foolish. I went south. Staying off the road, I moved toward the nearest town, Beregost. On the way, I met my next companion, Kivan. He wanted to go kill some ogres to the south (having previously encountered Droth the Ogre Mage, I was reluctant). Also, I heard about the disappearance of Bassilus and Brage. Heading south, I found Minsc and Edwin, both of whom wanted to go west to the Gnoll Stronghold.

I had no idea what the main quest was at this point. Any of this might have been relevant. Around this time, I also completed the Nashkel Mines, but didn't read Mulahey's notes, so was unaware of any follow-up quest.

That's how these games should work. The plot shouldn't be obvious until after the fact. Our feet should not be placed on a linear path with nowhere else to go.

 

If you (and Natashina, and others) read my post closely you would see that I said there was a difference between BG1 and other Bioware games and also that the trend was to decrease the emphasis over time, in other words I was agreeing with her (pretty sure it's her?) and Mr. C9 (pretty sure it' s him) simultaneously.    It's not mutually exclusive that earlier Bioware games and in particular BG1 were more focused on exploration and that a lot of that was a bit of window dressing.

 

In retrospect, I was thinking about my point about there being no beholders in BG1 being a kind of "got ya" moment but in all seriousness it was just a reaction based on the impossibility of being level 1-9 and actually successfully killing a beholder, I mean those things were hard in BG2 so they would of been impossible in BG1 and my generalized shock rather than an attempt to undercut the points generally.

 

Also in preparation for possible responses and such I revisited the map of BG1, the map of BG1 highlights the forking possibilities but like you consider that you do get directions from Gorion, from people like that about where to go and how to do it, as well as characters nagging you if you go off the path such as Khalid and Jaheira, it's clear there's kind of like a bell about to toll in the background.

 

The biggest diversion would have to be Nashkel in general, in fact all the examples you cited come from the south, and to a lesser degree Beregost. The thing is though, the biggest diversion is really the Minsc/Dynaheir companion quest, and while all the gibberlings and whatnot from there to the Gnoll Stronghold were somewhat designed with the expectation you would do that quest. The reason I cited the example about the tolls is because that was one of the non-companion path zones and it was also one of the ones that randomly had stuff in it, however if I'm not mistaken there at least 2 other zones that are non-companion non-main story path zones then that you feel compelled to explore, and don't have much out there. The mines are of course a strict main quest.

 

The biggest twist would be having the Captain Barge quest take place randomly out there in a distinct zone, which combined with the nature of quest was rather interesting and illustrates the point that yes, BG1 emphasized it more and it offered a more interesting and fun experience at times. However, I hestiate to place too much emphasis on that because the reality that triple forking path was only present in Nashkel, the Cloakwood expansion is mutli-zone but outside the Spider lair sort of sub-quest they simply proceed one after the other, and by the time of the BG city expedition it's simply a linear experience for the most part. You could possibly argue Nashkel as a town is the pinnacle of Bioware's entire output possibly actually...

 

I also specifically pointed to examples of other games which were demonstrably superior in the exploration/random stuff department such as Neverwinter Nights and Hordes of the Underdark expansion, not necessarily to contravene the points about BG1, but rather to add to it as it made the world feel more alive, which was intended to combine the points about early Bioware being more committed and pointing out that it was a gradual shift over time with meaningful differences, but not necessarily a division of night and day.

[Seraphim24]

From current memory one of the OWRPG games that made feel the world in it's infinite possibilites most dramatically was probably Morrowind, where I most definitely did not where I was going or exactly what was doing most of the time.

 

But look, yes, of course, BG1 had more of an open space, compared to BG2, compared to probably KOTOR and NWN, especially compared to modern DA, but were these things night and day, were they even severe.. hmmm... maybe if the Tales of the Sword Coast content had been in from the beginning and randomly strewn there, that becomes more of a serious division, but since it was chunked separately...

 

Every iteration actually felt smaller, to be quite honest, BG1 was like oh D&D! Then NWN and I'm like.. Oh......D&D...! then DA and it's like............ D&D? Finally DA2, where did D&D go!

 

But like the reason BG1 was interesting was because it wasn't just randomly strewn about chaos like a text MUD RPG or something, it was big but it also had meaningful differences and twists at times, or rather it wasn't a rogue-like or something either. There is a difference between Zelda exploration where being aware tends to reward you with things and big Skyrim like worlds where the only thing on the other side of the cliff is frequently just more snow.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If you (and Natashina, and others) read my post closely you would see that I said there was a difference between BG1 and other Bioware games and also that the trend was to decrease the emphasis over time, in other words I was agreeing with her (pretty sure it's her?) and Mr. C9 (pretty sure it' s him) simultaneously.    It's not mutually exclusive that earlier Bioware games and in particular BG1 were more focused on exploration and that a lot of that was a bit of window dressing.

I only jumped in there because you seemed to be suggesting that the design intent was at all relevant to the gameplay.  And I don't think it ever is.