181 réponses à ce sujet

[planehazza]

I was always a little unhappy with the ending, but no where near as bad as most.  I am a huge fan of ME with at least 10 completions of the trilogy, but I am ashamed to admit I never 100% understood the ending, and more precisely, exactly who Star Brat was.  

 

I've read this and it makes more sense:

 

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst

 

Now, I'm not really unhappy with the ending, but it still does feel incomplete.  I'm still left with that sour taste that it was a last minute change.  Star Brat and the leviathans are so big, they should not have been retconned last minute.  An entire game should have been devoted to finding them and 'dealing' with them.

 

I wonder if ME:A will have any reference to the ME 1-3 story in any form? Surely there won't be nothing whatsoever?

[fraggle]

I never had a problem with the Catalyst being what it is, or being introduced that late. Initially, without the Leviathan DLC, you still get that hint from Vendetta during the Cerberus HQ mission that something else might be behind the Reapers.

With Leviathan DLC, it's even faster to reveal what the Catalyst is because you can play it pretty early.

 

I also don't know why it's a retcon? Can you explain further?

 

As for ME:A, we'll probably not get a lot of references, if at all. I'm also curious about it.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Someone really needs to take the horse that is the Mass Effect ending out back and use that old rifle above the fireplace to put it out of its misery.

 

 

 

Obviously that is pretty difficult to do when they've green-lit a sequel for it.

[themikefest]

I never had a problem with the Catalyst being what it is, or being introduced that late. Initially, without the Leviathan DLC, you still get that hint from Vendetta during the Cerberus HQ mission that something else might be behind the Reapers.

Didn't Vendetta say that on Thessia? It only believes there is a master without any proof. It was just speculating. The master could've been Harbinger.

[fraggle]

Didn't Vendetta say that on Thessia? It only believes there is a master without any proof. It was just speculating. The master could've been Harbinger.

 

Ah yeah, you're right. Cronos is where he reveals the Catalyst is the Citadel

I know, that's why I said "there might be". But I guess that's still something to think about for the players Play around with the idea and prepare them that we could see something new soon.

[gothpunkboy89]

Didn't Vendetta say that on Thessia? It only believes there is a master without any proof. It was just speculating. The master could've been Harbinger.

No because he specifically says that the reapers are merely a tool. harbinger is still a reaper regardless of his standing among them.

[themikefest]

No because he specifically says that the reapers are merely a tool. harbinger is still a reaper regardless of his standing among them.

That's only an assumption on its part. It was only speculating about there being a master

 

If you're referring to Leviathan, then I agree.

[gothpunkboy89]

That's only an assumption on its part. It was only speculating about there being a master

 

If you're referring to Leviathan, then I agree.

 

Yes a master to the reapers. Harbinger is a reaper. So if there is a master (hint at catylst) then harbinger is auto excluded from that because he is a reaper.

[themikefest]

Yes a master to the reapers. Harbinger is a reaper. So if there is a master (hint at catylst) then harbinger is auto excluded from that because he is a reaper.

Are you talking about Leviathan?

[AlanC9]

Didn't Vendetta say that on Thessia? It only believes there is a master without any proof. It was just speculating. The master could've been Harbinger.

Except that Harbinger is a Reaper. But of course, Vendetta could have been a little wrong about that part. We shouldn't waste time on that line.

[AlanC9]

I was always a little unhappy with the ending, but no where near as bad as most.  I am a huge fan of ME with at least 10 completions of the trilogy, but I am ashamed to admit I never 100% understood the ending, and more precisely, exactly who Star Brat was.  
 
I've read this and it makes more sense:
 
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst
 

There's nothing in the wiki that doesn't come from just paying attention during the games, you know.

[themikefest]

Except that Harbinger is a Reaper. But of course, Vendetta could have been a little wrong about that part. We shouldn't waste time on that line.

And a reaper can't be in charge? Why is that? We should spend some time on that.

[FOZ289]

The idea that Reapers are "tools" with a definitive beginning and end who are controlled by a single AI that uses only contrived, broken logic is phenomenally dumb.  Every Reaper is its own vast intelligence, and that they chose to cooperate for some vague purpose is much more interesting than any garbage the Catalyst can cook up.  Nothing about Sovereign or Harbinger's behavior is consistent with what the Catalyst says; they clearly each had their own motivations and interests.  Every Reaper is sentient, the idea that we should believe the Catalyst's crap, that they're simply tools with a convoluted purpose, is insulting to the player and the lore, and that's the main problem with the ending.

[AlanC9]

And a reaper can't be in charge? Why is that? We should spend some time on that.

Where are we going to get with that? Vendetta made a guess that all of the Reapers were servants of the pattern rather than its masters, rather than guessing that one Reaper was the master and all the others were servants. No good reason for the guess, but it happened to be right anyway.

[AlanC9]

The idea that Reapers are "tools" with a definitive beginning and end who are controlled by a single AI that uses only contrived, broken logic is phenomenally dumb. Every Reaper is its own vast intelligence, and that they chose to cooperate for some vague purpose is much more interesting than any garbage the Catalyst can cook up.

You mean that it should have been left vague? Maybe, but my bet is that if Bio had gone that route everyone would have been whining about how the Reapers never made any sense and the writers had no idea what they were doing,

Nothing about Sovereign or Harbinger's behavior is consistent with what the Catalyst says; they clearly each had their own motivations and interests. Every Reaper is sentient, the idea that we should believe the Catalyst's crap, that they're simply tools with a convoluted purpose, is insulting to the player and the lore, and that's the main problem with the ending.

What's the inconsistency? Both of them are trying to carry out the Reaper plan.

Edit: sure, that plan doesn't serve any rational Reaper interests, but that isn't ME3's fault.

[themikefest]

Where are we going to get with that?Vendetta made a guess that all of the Reapers were servants of the pattern rather than its masters, rather than guessing that one Reaper was the master and all the others were servants. No good reason for the guess, but it happened to be right anyway.

Where would you like to go with that?

 

It was only speculating without any proof regardless if the thing was right or not. The player nor Shepard knew that until the catalyst made its appearance.

 

Maybe the reapers rebel against its creators, like the geth did against the quarians, with Harbinger leading the way attacking its creators. Over time Harbinger leads the reapers to attack all life every 50 000 years. So why can't a reaper, Harbinger, be the master?

[Iakus]

The idea that Reapers are "tools" with a definitive beginning and end who are controlled by a single AI that uses only contrived, broken logic is phenomenally dumb.  Every Reaper is its own vast intelligence, and that they chose to cooperate for some vague purpose is much more interesting than any garbage the Catalyst can cook up.  Nothing about Sovereign or Harbinger's behavior is consistent with what the Catalyst says; they clearly each had their own motivations and interests.  Every Reaper is sentient, the idea that we should believe the Catalyst's crap, that they're simply tools with a convoluted purpose, is insulting to the player and the lore, and that's the main problem with the ending.

"We are each a nation, independent.  Free of all weakness" is so ME1.  Who cares what was said way back then 

[Iakus]

 

Edit: sure, that plan doesn't serve any rational Reaper interests, but that isn't ME3's fault.

It is ME3's fault that we gotta ride that plan to the ground, Slim Pickens'-style or rocks fall, everyone dies

[FOZ289]

You mean that it should have been left vague? Maybe, but my bet is that if Bio had gone that route everyone would have been whining about how the Reapers never made any sense and the writers had no idea what they were doing,

What's the inconsistency? Both of them are trying to carry out the Reaper plan.

Edit: sure, that plan doesn't serve any rational Reaper interests, but that isn't ME3's fault.

 

I think they would have needed some sort of explanation as to what the Reapers were doing.  But the explanation we got is far too concrete and simplistic.  The Reapers are a conglomerate of super-intelligent machines; the Catalyst reduces them to mindless drones in service of a purpose contrary to everything they've said and done.  The Reapers should have a goal, but need to remain mysterious.  They shouldn't have a singular creator and purpose, especially not one that can be explained in under a minute.

[CYRAX470]

I'd have been totally fine with no truly discernible goal for the Reapers. Preferred it actually. Wasn't really on my MUST KNOW list concerning ME mysterys. Second place after no origin, is a truly mavelolent one.

[AlanC9]

Where would you like to go with that?
 
It was only speculating without any proof regardless if the thing was right or not. The player nor Shepard knew that until the catalyst made its appearance.
 
Maybe the reapers rebel against its creators, like the geth did against the quarians, with Harbinger leading the way attacking its creators. Over time Harbinger leads the reapers to attack all life every 50 000 years. So why can't a reaper, Harbinger, be the master?

I still don't see the point of this. We know what the truth was. If we're going to talk about alternative versions of ME3, why not just throw out Vendetta's conversation while we're rewriting the game?

[AlanC9]

It is ME3's fault that we gotta ride that plan to the ground, Slim Pickens'-style or rocks fall, everyone dies

I'm not supposed to take this argument seriously, right? I've made that mistake before.

[Iakus]

I'm not supposed to take this argument seriously, right? I've made that mistake before.

Depends on how seriously you were taking it, I suppose.

 

Is there an option the Catalyst doesn't put forth that you can try and not get everyone killed?

[AlanC9]

I think they would have needed some sort of explanation as to what the Reapers were doing.  But the explanation we got is far too concrete and simplistic.  The Reapers are a conglomerate of super-intelligent machines; the Catalyst reduces them to mindless drones in service of a purpose contrary to everything they've said and done.  The Reapers should have a goal, but need to remain mysterious.  They shouldn't have a singular creator and purpose, especially not one that can be explained in under a minute.

 

The italed isn't really the right metaphor. The reveal reduces the Reapers to indoctrinated stooges, rather than mindless drones; they're hundreds of Sarens, TIMs,  and Benezias. I guess you could say that ME3 does to Harbinger what ME1 did to Saren. I liked that aspect just fine, myself, but I can see wanting the Reapers to not be just some more victims of the cycles.

 

As for mystery, this is probably a taste thing. The only thing I want from a mystery is to see it solved.

[AlanC9]

Depends on how seriously you were taking it, I suppose.

 

Is there an option the Catalyst doesn't put forth that you can try and not get everyone killed?

 

 

"Put forth" meaning "tells you about," of course. It's not like the Catalyst invented Destroy, or ordered the Reapers to shoot at the Crucible because he prefers Destroy and Control to synthesis.