181 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonC Shepard]

Perhaps I exaggerated a bit but seems to me that the great victory and HEA without some bittersweet isn´t so common anymore even if you execute the whole game flawlessly.

It's not extremely uncommon, but I think that happy endings are sort of boring and unrealistic which is why writers tend to go towards bittersweet.

I actually think that Bioware making only one option where Shepard lives was a pretty brave thing to do, but they executed it so poorly I can't give them any credit.  I can give them credit for making Shepard's survival at least 10x more idiotic than Shepard's planetary re-entry and resurrection in ME2.

He survives a Reaper laser which should have killed him, barely has any strength when he kills the magic tubes that do magic, survives the explosion/destruction of the Citadel, does ANOTHER planetary re-entry stunt, but this time LIVES THROUGH IT.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread how ME2's intro shattered my suspension of disbelief.  Shepard's survival at the end of ME3's destroy ending fired a M-920 Cain to my suspension of disbelief just to make sure I was completely taken out of the game.

[Dantriges]

IIRC the devs said the breath scene is on the Citadel. Surviving the reaper laser was very weird so you could say the same about the other endings.

[Darth Malignus]

What I really love is the logic behind the choices presented by The Catalyst to Commander Shepard.

TC: "I got 3 options for you, 'mkay?"
CS: "Huh... okay, hit me."
TC: "I'll give you the option to destroy us all, free of charge. But that'll wipe out half of your allies and one of your friends."
CS: "Naah, what else?"
TC: "Well, then I've got other two options, but you're sort of burned into a crisp with both of them. But hey, one of them let's you brainwash us into becoming your slavearmy! That's kinda cool, right?"
CS: "Do I still get to boink Ash at any point after that?"
TC: "Errrhhhh... no, not really, no."
CS: "Is that it?"
TC: "Well...... you could fight it out with us, but that'll suck for you. Really. You don't wanna go th..."
CS: "Allright, lemme get this straight. You wanna let me DESTROY or BRAINWASH you, right? Voluntarily?"
TC: "Sure, go for it."
CS: "So... why not just, oh I don't know, surrender and live in peace without being destroyed?"
TC: "Naah, that wouldn't work. Pick one."
CS: "Why not?"
TC: "Look, just pick one, okay?"
CS: "But why not?!?!"
TC: "GOD! The **** I put up with on a 50.000-year basis! FINE! Enjoy being Reaper-chow! NEXT!!!"
CS: "Dude, WTF???"

[JasonC Shepard]

IIRC the devs said the breath scene is on the Citadel. Surviving the reaper laser was very weird so you could say the same about the other endings.

It was on the Citadel?  The rubble that buried Shepard didn't look like anything we've ever seen on the Citadel.  I'm pretty sure it was concrete and considering that Shepard was on some floating metal platform thing that nobody has ever see before, it's weird how he isn't covered in something more metallic. And I could say the same about the other endings, but Shepard doesn't survive past the Citadel explosion in the other endings so it's maybe slightly less crazy.

Still more crazy than ME2's intro though, at least in my opinion.

[AlanC9]

There's no plausible way for Shepard to re-enter anyway. The Citadel itself stays in orbit, after all.

As for the Reaper beam, we don't actually see Shepard hit by it. There's a secondary explosion while the beam's not very close to Shepard, and the screen goes white.

[Dantriges]

It was on the Citadel?  The rubble that buried Shepard didn't look like anything we've ever seen on the Citadel.  I'm pretty sure it was concrete and considering that Shepard was on some floating metal platform thing that nobody has ever see before, it's weird how he isn't covered in something more metallic.

 

He was at the butt end of Citadel station and yeah according to the devs he was still somewhere on Citadel station. I assume that the concrete belonged to some of the buildings on the station. They probably didn´t build them metal only. How he got there, no clue. Well in Synthesis we have Mr or Mrs. Slo-Mo doing a sprint. But well the weird thing is, without killing himself, Shepard would be still alive in the other endings, despite bleeding on the floor and getting struck by Harbinger´s beam of reclothing.

[dorktainian]

He was at the butt end of Citadel station and yeah according to the devs he was still somewhere on Citadel station. I assume that the concrete belonged to some of the buildings on the station. They probably didn´t build them metal only. How he got there, no clue. Well in Synthesis we have Mr or Mrs. Slo-Mo doing a sprint. But well the weird thing is, without killing himself, Shepard would be still alive in the other endings, despite bleeding on the floor and getting struck by Harbinger´s beam of reclothing.

 

one shepard is very definitely in the rubble of the citadel....... the clone.

 

So what they say is true... from a certain point of view.

 

[fraggle]

The point in arguing is that nobody has ever met and spoke with the Catalyst since (I'd assume at least) the Leviathans before it turned on them.  Aside from that, Mass Effect is a dialogue heavy series with a focus on choice also.  Removing both the voice of Shepard goes back on both of those features of the series.

The Catalyst was designed to protect organic life from complete destruction at the hands of Synthetics.  It comes to the conclusion that organics create synthetics to improve their own lives.  There is a limit to what can be improved though with just basic synthetics so they must surpass their creators to further improve their creator's lives.  Somehow, the idea that synthetics surpassing organics would lead to the destruction of organics.  Instead of regulating production of synthetics, using its power to intervene in conflict between synthetics and organics, or finding another possible solution, the AI comes to the conclusion that it's only possible to prevent such a disaster by killing the creators of advanced synthetics.  The AI also built the Mass Effect relays and the Citadel to guide civilizations down to their eventual point of harvesting.  So this advanced AI that controlled an incredible army of immense power decided that the ONLY way to preserve organics was to kill them.  This just plain doesn't make any sense.

 

Yes, you're right that Shepard is the first organic to meet the Catalyst and speak with it, but even if we were to argue with the Catalyst, we're still bound by these choices, because since the Crucible has docked, it changed the Catalyst (as it states), and only Shepard can act. Whether this is because the Crucible did something else to the Catalyst we don't know about, or the Catalyst simply not being able to choose something itself because it's not a physical entity doesn't matter, because it cannot do anything about it in the end.

The thing about harvesting being its non-ideal solution, which it also acknowledges, is that it has tried a lot of other things before. Of course we don't know them, but initially, it was tasked to oversee relations between organics and synthetics, so maybe the synthetic life was included in that (don't remember if this was mentioned during Leviathan or the last conversation). I think it picked this solution because even if it would, say, intervene and just stop the synthetics every single time before they wipe out organics, civilizations would just build new synthetics because they are used to it. So I assume it rather picked this cycle-like solution to not constantly having to watch over everything, while still preserving organics with storing them inside a Reaper.

I don't agree with the solution btw, just trying to understand why it does what it does

 

Let's talk about the Synthesis ending for a second.  The Catalyst mentions that it was viewed as a possible solution in the past, but didn't work because "organics were not ready".  What makes them ready now?  Why is the current cycle different from the Prothean empire or whatever came before?  What happened as a result of the past attempts to combine synthetic life and organic?  You'd think that releasing a giant wave of energy over the entire galaxy that affects all life would have some pretty damning effects if it didn't work in combining synthetics and organics.

 

I thought about this before and I'm tending towards races working together for possibly the first time as the reason. Not sure, but maybe this is it.

Before, we know from Javik, the Protheans were on top and whoever didn't want to join them was treated as slaves and lesser beings. Of course we don't know what it was like in civilizations before that, but I always took it that our cycle was special because of that. Just a feeling.

 

Moving onto the control ending.  The Catalyst is giving Shepard the opportunity to preserve organic life by gaining control of the Reapers themselves.  There's two real things I find wrong with this.  The first is: how is this a solution to the potential destruction of organics?  If Shepard simply fills in the role of the Catalyst, how does that fulfill what the AI was programmed to do?  My other issue I have with this is: how can the Catalyst ensure that Shepard himself won't eventually destroy organic life?  This would be worrying to me especially if control was given to a pure renegade Shepard.  He can take the place of the Catalyst, but he isn't bound by the programming to protect organic life like the Catalyst is.  There is no guarantee that Shepard wouldn't destroy everything at least according to the Catalyst's ideas about the relationship between synthetics and organics.  Once again, this isn't any sort of solution to the issue.  It's pushing the responsibility of dealing with the issue onto someone who isn't bound by the same programming as the AI.

 

Shepard replaces the Catalyst in the control ending, it states that at some point, and Shepard Catalyst still has Shepard's memories it seems. So I think basically you can make up what this new Catalyst would do with the Reapers for yourself. While I've heard the Renegade Shepalyst doesn't leave that much room (I haven't seen it myself), I think the Paragon version can be whatever the player comes up with, if that's your thing. I've never chosen Control because it's not my kind of concept, but people can have their own reasons for picking it. And I'm actually playing around with the idea to let my current Shepard pick it for once, just to see how it plays out.

 

Destroy as a solution is the most sound logically, but this also doesn't consider Shepard's views or ideas.  This is strictly a solution offered by the Catalyst and there is no player input on the outcome.  Destroy not only wipes out the Reapers, but also wipes out synthetic life.  If Shepard believes in coexistence, but doesn't believe in the Catalyst's flawed solution, then this ending does nothing for the player.  By wiping out synthetic life, you are pushing back coexistence and playing into the beliefs of the Catalyst yet again.  It's also mentioned by the Catalyst that it doesn't even see this as a solution, making it confusing why it would offer the decision to the player.  If it's goal is to ensure organic survival, why would it offer something counter to what it perceives as a solution?

 

Why not? If Shepard thinks that getting rid of the bigger threat, the Reapers and the Catalyst, it's a good decision, with some casualties. It's very unfortunate that synthetics are targeted, but this comes with the Crucible, it's not like Shepard has a choice in this. And Shepard can still support synthetics even when choosing Destroy. I did that before. It's unfortunate, but from now on things can develop on their own. Future synthetics have the chance for this coexistence. And organics have the chance to develop without the Reapers lurking in the back and harvest them eventually.

The Catalyst only offers this choice because it has to, it seems. See below.

 

There's nothing right about the Catalyst and there's nothing right about being forced into choices that aren't even really the player's without the option to discuss anything with the AI.

 

But that's the thing, these are not the Catalyst's choices, it's the Crucible's doing. Except Synthesis, which I think is somehow a byproduct of the energy the Crucible can build up, I think these choices come with the Crucible. It would make sense in terms of why the Catalyst offers them. If they come with the Crucible it is bound by presenting them. It is even hostile with low EMS when Synthesis is not available.

So why is everyone hating on the Catalyst? It merely presents you the options you have, there's nothing it, nor you, can do about it. Well, except picking refuse I guess. I think then the problem many players have with "no choice" should be with the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

[voteDC]

But that's the thing, these are not the Catalyst's choices, it's the Crucible's doing. Except Synthesis, which I think is somehow a byproduct of the energy the Crucible can build up, I think these choices come with the Crucible. It would make sense in terms of why the Catalyst offers them. If they come with the Crucible it is bound by presenting them. It is even hostile with low EMS when Synthesis is not available.

So why is everyone hating on the Catalyst? It merely presents you the options you have, there's nothing it, nor you, can do about it. Well, except picking refuse I guess. I think then the problem many players have with "no choice" should be with the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

Yet the Crucible, by the Catalyst's own words, is just a power source.

A power source which never physically touches the area that the Catalyst is in.

So somehow this 'just a battery' is able to change the Catalyst's chamber without coming into direct contact with it. Creating not only three solutions to the Reaper problem but is able to impart the knowledge of how those solutions are going to work directly into the Catalyst's memory.

[JasonC Shepard]

Yes, you're right that Shepard is the first organic to meet the Catalyst and speak with it, but even if we were to argue with the Catalyst, we're still bound by these choices, because since the Crucible has docked, it changed the Catalyst (as it states), and only Shepard can act. Whether this is because the Crucible did something else to the Catalyst we don't know about, or the Catalyst simply not being able to choose something itself because it's not a physical entity doesn't matter, because it cannot do anything about it in the end.

The thing about harvesting being its non-ideal solution, which it also acknowledges, is that it has tried a lot of other things before. Of course we don't know them, but initially, it was tasked to oversee relations between organics and synthetics, so maybe the synthetic life was included in that (don't remember if this was mentioned during Leviathan or the last conversation). I think it picked this solution because even if it would, say, intervene and just stop the synthetics every single time before they wipe out organics, civilizations would just build new synthetics because they are used to it. So I assume it rather picked this cycle-like solution to not constantly having to watch over everything, while still preserving organics with storing them inside a Reaper.

I don't agree with the solution btw, just trying to understand why it does what it does

 

 

I thought about this before and I'm tending towards races working together for possibly the first time as the reason. Not sure, but maybe this is it.

Before, we know from Javik, the Protheans were on top and whoever didn't want to join them was treated as slaves and lesser beings. Of course we don't know what it was like in civilizations before that, but I always took it that our cycle was special because of that. Just a feeling.

 

 

Shepard replaces the Catalyst in the control ending, it states that at some point, and Shepard Catalyst still has Shepard's memories it seems. So I think basically you can make up what this new Catalyst would do with the Reapers for yourself. While I've heard the Renegade Shepalyst doesn't leave that much room (I haven't seen it myself), I think the Paragon version can be whatever the player comes up with, if that's your thing. I've never chosen Control because it's not my kind of concept, but people can have their own reasons for picking it. And I'm actually playing around with the idea to let my current Shepard pick it for once, just to see how it plays out.

 

 

Why not? If Shepard thinks that getting rid of the bigger threat, the Reapers and the Catalyst, it's a good decision, with some casualties. It's very unfortunate that synthetics are targeted, but this comes with the Crucible, it's not like Shepard has a choice in this. And Shepard can still support synthetics even when choosing Destroy. I did that before. It's unfortunate, but from now on things can develop on their own. Future synthetics have the chance for this coexistence. And organics have the chance to develop without the Reapers lurking in the back and harvest them eventually.

The Catalyst only offers this choice because it has to, it seems. See below.

 

 

But that's the thing, these are not the Catalyst's choices, it's the Crucible's doing. Except Synthesis, which I think is somehow a byproduct of the energy the Crucible can build up, I think these choices come with the Crucible. It would make sense in terms of why the Catalyst offers them. If they come with the Crucible it is bound by presenting them. It is even hostile with low EMS when Synthesis is not available.

So why is everyone hating on the Catalyst? It merely presents you the options you have, there's nothing it, nor you, can do about it. Well, except picking refuse I guess. I think then the problem many players have with "no choice" should be with the Crucible, not the Catalyst.

The Crucible is explained to be a power source, it does not control or effect the Catalyst in other ways.  You're speculating that the Catalyst is unable to take action, but nothing that's said or seen in game tells us that is true.  The Catalyst was designed to find a solution to the synthetic problem and to oversee synthetic-organic relations on it's own terms.  It isn't shackled by anything except what is was programmed to do and it mentions it controls the Reapers.

The Catalyst places organic life over synthetic life as that's what the Leviathans were concerned with.  Their slaves were dying, they wanted to stop that.  If the Catalyst had monitored synthetic development closely, then the risk of synthetics overpowering their masters would be minimal.  Along with developing countermeasures against potential synthetic uprisings it would have been able to put down those uprisings immediately.  Watching over synthetics shouldn't be a problem for the AI.  It has no personal feelings to stop it from doing its work, I don't see why watching over development of synthetics would even be an issue.  There's really no way to make the Catalyst's solution seem anywhere near logically sound.  The synthetic problem isn't as simple as organics build synthetics therefore organics are the cause of potential synthetic conflict.  There are little variables in the relationship between man and machine that the AI just isn't looking at.

 

Synthesis is about elevating organic/synthetic life by combining synthetics and organics.  Whether or not people are working together during the time of the Reaper invasion doesn't have much to do with them being ready to accept synthetic technology into their bodies.  That is what the synthesis ending is about, Synthetics accepting organic life into their whatever and organics accepting synthetic tech into their bodies.  So the idea that a cycle is ready to undergo synthesis because they're working together doesn't really make sense.  The huge issue with this is what makes an organic/synthetic ready to undergo such a huge transformation?  It's most likely related to biology or design of the synthetics, so what makes humanity, asari, turians, etc different from say the Protheans?  The Protheans were arguably superior to any races alive in the current cycle, why weren't they ready?  What about the Leviathans?  They're pretty much perfection incarnate, what deemed them not ready?

And if it was a mental thing that determined whether a cycle was ready to accept synthesis, then wouldn't there be a large amount of individuals who might be opposed to becoming part synthetic?  There's no way to understand what the Catalyst means when it says "other civilizations weren't ready".

The idea in general that waves of energy could somehow incorporate synthetic technology into organics and organic life into synthetics is ridiculous by itself anyways.  It's easier to accept the idea that energy blasts could help Shepard control the Reapers or wipe out synthetic life in the case of the Destroy ending.

 

Yes, when you choose Control the Catalyst gives you the ability to do whatever with the Reapers.  But that's the exact issue, what if you choose to wipe out organic life?  You are not bound by programming like the Catalyst is, insane Renegade Shepard could very well do that.

Aside from that though, the idea that pushing the responsibility of a problem to someone else is a solution is just wrong.  Okay, Shepard has control of the Reapers now.  How is organic life saved?  Is Shepard supposed to rule with better judgment than the ancient AI with the knowledge of countless civilizations at its virtual hands?  Is the Catalyst acknowledging its own insufficiency by pushing the responsibility of the synthetic threat onto Shepard.  Either way, the control ending certainly isn't a solution to anything.

 

The destruction of Synthetics does NOT come with the Crucible, it is a power source.  The Catalyst offers you this solution, the Crucible cannot.  What even separates Synthetics from other technology?  Is the energy blast shot off by the Citadel an EMP?  Why does it cause only minor damage to some electronics and completely wipe out synthetics?  It just doesn't make sense.

I can only imagine how future synthetics will feel if they learned Shepard decided to wipe out all synthetic life in the galaxy just to destroy the Reapers.  Not going to make them feel very equal or accepted.

 

And once again, these are the Catalyst's choices.  The Crucible has no mind of its own, it is a power source.  The Catalyst is an advanced AI capable of making its own decisions and the Crucible was developed later (somehow, I have no clue) by another cycle.  Here's the odd thing about the Crucible and the Catalyst though.  If the AI had tried to use synthesis before, it would have needed the Crucible to do so.  So that means a civilization would have had to attach the Crucible to the Citadel and get as far as Shepard to make that happen.  Now, does that mean Shepard isn't the first one to stand in front of the Catalyst?  Or did the Catalyst just get some juice hooked up to it and decided to blow some green energy over the galaxy?  Confusing.

[fraggle]

Yet the Crucible, by the Catalyst's own words, is just a power source.

A power source which never physically touches the area that the Catalyst is in.

So somehow this 'just a battery' is able to change the Catalyst's chamber without coming into direct contact with it. Creating not only three solutions to the Reaper problem but is able to impart the knowledge of those solutions are going to work directly into the Catalyst's memory.

 

I mean the solutions being attached to the Crucible physically, the control handles and the destroy tube. There's a thread for it here with some pretty cool theories, and it's a good idea, makes most sense I think. Because if no organic ever was in this chamber, how could it have been built there?

And then it would fit with the Catalyst saying that the Crucible changed it, added new solutions.

[fraggle]

The Crucible is explained to be a power source, it does not control or effect the Catalyst in other ways.  You're speculating that the Catalyst is unable to take action, but nothing that's said or seen in game tells us that is true.  The Catalyst was designed to find a solution to the synthetic problem and to oversee synthetic-organic relations on it's own terms.  It isn't shackled by anything except what is was programmed to do and it mentions it controls the Reapers.

The Catalyst places organic life over synthetic life as that's what the Leviathans were concerned with.  Their slaves were dying, they wanted to stop that.  If the Catalyst had monitored synthetic development closely, then the risk of synthetics overpowering their masters would be minimal.  Along with developing countermeasures against potential synthetic uprisings it would have been able to put down those uprisings immediately.  Watching over synthetics shouldn't be a problem for the AI.  It has no personal feelings to stop it from doing its work, I don't see why watching over development of synthetics would even be an issue.  There's really no way to make the Catalyst's solution seem anywhere near logically sound.  The synthetic problem isn't as simple as organics build synthetics therefore organics are the cause of potential synthetic conflict.  There are little variables in the relationship between man and machine that the AI just isn't looking at.

 

I seem to remember the Catalyst explaining it to Shepard when talking about Control. That the Catalyst does not look forward to be replaced by Shepard, but that both it and Shepard are bound by these choices or something and that the Catalyst is forced to accept it. Might need to recheck that dialogue, but I think I took it that way that the Catalyst cannot do anything. Why else would it be hostile if only Destroy or Control are available? It doesn't want these solutions, yet it has to accept them somehow.

Also when it says it cannot act on any of the solutions... doesn't that mean that it... well, can't take action?

Well, maybe the mistake is we never know what it has tried, witnessed and studied over all these years, but to me this is not a big issue. It chose a solution which it thought best. And yes, I disagree with it, that's why I like Destroy best.

 

Synthesis is about elevating organic/synthetic life by combining synthetics and organics.  Whether or not people are working together during the time of the Reaper invasion doesn't have much to do with them being ready to accept synthetic technology into their bodies.  That is what the synthesis ending is about, Synthetics accepting organic life into their whatever and organics accepting synthetic tech into their bodies.  So the idea that a cycle is ready to undergo synthesis because they're working together doesn't really make sense.  The huge issue with this is what makes an organic/synthetic ready to undergo such a huge transformation?  It's most likely related to biology or design of the synthetics, so what makes humanity, asari, turians, etc different from say the Protheans?  The Protheans were arguably superior to any races alive in the current cycle, why weren't they ready?  What about the Leviathans?  They're pretty much perfection incarnate, what deemed them not ready?

And if it was a mental thing that determined whether a cycle was ready to accept synthesis, then wouldn't there be a large amount of individuals who might be opposed to becoming part synthetic?  There's no way to understand what the Catalyst means when it says "other civilizations weren't ready".

The idea in general that waves of energy could somehow incorporate synthetic technology into organics and organic life into synthetics is ridiculous by itself anyways.  It's easier to accept the idea that energy blasts could help Shepard control the Reapers or wipe out synthetic life in the case of the Destroy ending.

 

Yeah, maybe it doesn't make sense, it's just speculation because we don't know what the exact reason is.

You don't need to argue with me about what happens during Synthesis. I chose it the first time, unfortunately, it wasn't for me. But that doesn't mean that other people can't enjoy it. And they can make up their reasons why this cycle was ready and what will happen next.

 

Yes, when you choose Control the Catalyst gives you the ability to do whatever with the Reapers.  But that's the exact issue, what if you choose to wipe out organic life?  You are not bound by programming like the Catalyst is, insane Renegade Shepard could very well do that.

Aside from that though, the idea that pushing the responsibility of a problem to someone else is a solution is just wrong.  Okay, Shepard has control of the Reapers now.  How is organic life saved?  Is Shepard supposed to rule with better judgment than the ancient AI with the knowledge of countless civilizations at its virtual hands?  Is the Catalyst acknowledging its own insufficiency by pushing the responsibility of the synthetic threat onto Shepard.  Either way, the control ending certainly isn't a solution to anything.

 

Key word "could". This is up to each player. Headcanon your ending in a way in which you're comfortable with it. Easy as that.

I agree Control isn't really a solution to anything, but Shepard can act differently depending on what each player will think of. I think we see the Reapers helping rebuild, which is already a step in this direction, they help instead of continuing the harvest.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of Control, or Synthesis for that matter, but I always try to roleplay and maybe one of my Shepard's think one of those is the best solution (while we as players know the outcome and what's going to happen, Shepard doesn't).

 

The destruction of Synthetics does NOT come with the Crucible, it is a power source.  The Catalyst offers you this solution, the Crucible cannot.  What even separates Synthetics from other technology?  Is the energy blast shot off by the Citadel an EMP?  Why does it cause only minor damage to some electronics and completely wipe out synthetics?  It just doesn't make sense.

I can only imagine how future synthetics will feel if they learned Shepard decided to wipe out all synthetic life in the galaxy just to destroy the Reapers.  Not going to make them feel very equal or accepted.

 

What about the sentence "the Crucible will not discriminate"? Here you have the most important sentence, the energy of the Crucible will target synthetics.

A common interpretation here is that it only targets Reaper tech though, which makes the most sense, given that clearly not all tech is affected. But everything with Reaper tech is gone. Reapers, EDI, Geth.

I think you're not too far off with the EMP, because I think I remember one of the writers stating somewhere that the relays were supposed to just overload (post EC iirc).

 

And once again, these are the Catalyst's choices.  The Crucible has no mind of its own, it is a power source.  The Catalyst is an advanced AI capable of making its own decisions and the Crucible was developed later (somehow, I have no clue) by another cycle.  Here's the odd thing about the Crucible and the Catalyst though.  If the AI had tried to use synthesis before, it would have needed the Crucible to do so.  So that means a civilization would have had to attach the Crucible to the Citadel and get as far as Shepard to make that happen.  Now, does that mean Shepard isn't the first one to stand in front of the Catalyst?  Or did the Catalyst just get some juice hooked up to it and decided to blow some green energy over the galaxy?  Confusing.

 

The Crucible was initially built as a weapon against the Reapers without the Citadel. The Citadel was only later incorporated into this idea. I think because of its star-shaped form when open, the energy can be spread much further (if the ancient civilizations knew that or not, we don't know). So if the Crucible is a weapon, somehow the solution for Destroy would need to be already present on the device itself. Otherwise it makes no sense.

Maybe some argued to control the Reapers, the design evolved over many cycles, so it could've been added at some point as well. Javik says the Protheans also believed that the Crucible could be used to control the Reapers.

I think the Catalyst didn't know about the Crucible being able to be efficient for Synthesis. It doesn't even know before the Crucible docks, that's why the Reapers still attack it to that point. It only knows it's supposedly some kind of weapon, and wants it gone.

And we don't know what the Catalyst tried as a Synthesis solution, could be anything from merging the two together physically to different other things. It's not really relevant anyway.

[Tim van Beek]

But it's not the Catalyst that solves anything, quite to the contrary. The Catalyst can't even do anything in the end, Shepard has to act.

Yes. As I said before, if people like to use that as a defining characteristic of a DEM, then the catalyst isn't a DEM. My point is that this discussion about the definition of a DEM is missing the point of the DEM concept, because most of the criticism that was and is directed at DEMs isn't invalidated if that one characteristic is absent.

 

Taking the "Three Penny Opera" as an example (https://en.wikipedia...hreepenny_Opera), we have an established character that only heralds the solution, which is a pardon of the Queen. So there you go, you have even two reasons to not call this a DEM. Yet, this plot twist is a parody of simple HEA achieved by a DEM. That's the explicit intention of the author, and I dare say that most people, at least most critics, got and get that. Twisting the DEM definition to take that label out of the discussion doesn't really change anything about what that ending is, what it is supposed to be, how critics interpret it and about the effect it has on the audience.

 

Well, it does change one thing: It makes it harder to find a concise expression for what the OP tried to say with these words:

 

Now, I'm not really unhappy with the ending, but it still does feel incomplete.  I'm still left with that sour taste that it was a last minute change.  Star Brat and the leviathans are so big, they should not have been retconned last minute.  An entire game should have been devoted to finding them and 'dealing' with them.

Obviously we could tell the OP something like "you are only disappointed because you feel like you have been cheated by a literary device called a DEM, but you really shouldn't, because technically it isn't a DEM."

 

Alright then, problem solved. Sit down, take a cookie 

[JasonC Shepard]

I seem to remember the Catalyst explaining it to Shepard when talking about Control. That the Catalyst does not look forward to be replaced by Shepard, but that both it and Shepard are bound by these choices or something and that the Catalyst is forced to accept it. Might need to recheck that dialogue, but I think I took it that way that the Catalyst cannot do anything. Why else would it be hostile if only Destroy or Control are available? It doesn't want these solutions, yet it has to accept them somehow.

Also when it says it cannot act on any of the solutions... doesn't that mean that it... well, can't take action?

Well, maybe the mistake is we never know what it has tried, witnessed and studied over all these years, but to me this is not a big issue. It chose a solution which it thought best. And yes, I disagree with it, that's why I like Destroy best.

 

 

Yeah, maybe it doesn't make sense, it's just speculation because we don't know what the exact reason is.

You don't need to argue with me about what happens during Synthesis. I chose it the first time, unfortunately, it wasn't for me. But that doesn't mean that other people can't enjoy it. And they can make up their reasons why this cycle was ready and what will happen next.

 

 

Key word "could". This is up to each player. Headcanon your ending in a way in which you're comfortable with it. Easy as that.

I agree Control isn't really a solution to anything, but Shepard can act differently depending on what each player will think of. I think we see the Reapers helping rebuild, which is already a step in this direction, they help instead of continuing the harvest.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of Control, or Synthesis for that matter, but I always try to roleplay and maybe one of my Shepard's think one of those is the best solution (while we as players know the outcome and what's going to happen, Shepard doesn't).

 

 

What about the sentence "the Crucible will not discriminate"? Here you have the most important sentence, the energy of the Crucible will target synthetics.

A common interpretation here is that it only targets Reaper tech though, which makes the most sense, given that clearly not all tech is affected. But everything with Reaper tech is gone. Reapers, EDI, Geth.

I think you're not too far off with the EMP, because I think I remember one of the writers stating somewhere that the relays were supposed to just overload (post EC iirc).

 

 

The Crucible was initially built as a weapon against the Reapers without the Citadel. The Citadel was only later incorporated into this idea. I think because of its star-shaped form when open, the energy can be spread much further (if the ancient civilizations knew that or not, we don't know). So if the Crucible is a weapon, somehow the solution for Destroy would need to be already present on the device itself. Otherwise it makes no sense.

Maybe some argued to control the Reapers, the design evolved over many cycles, so it could've been added at some point as well. Javik says the Protheans also believed that the Crucible could be used to control the Reapers.

I think the Catalyst didn't know about the Crucible being able to be efficient for Synthesis. It doesn't even know before the Crucible docks, that's why the Reapers still attack it to that point. It only knows it's supposedly some kind of weapon, and wants it gone.

And we don't know what the Catalyst tried as a Synthesis solution, could be anything from merging the two together physically to different other things. It's not really relevant anyway.

The Catalyst is indifferent to Shepard taking control.  It offers it as a solution, but says nothing about the consequences other than Shepard dying.  The only ending the Catalyst criticizes is the control one as it views it as a temporary solution.

You're right, it cannot take action in relation to implementing those solutions.  Why is this?  The plot demands it I guess and they had to make the ending involve some choice.  But the Catalyst still remains overall control over the Reapers so it can call off the entire attack if it wanted to.  It just won't.

 

And I know I don't need to argue with you on the Synthesis ending, but I enjoy talking about the endings.  Wouldn't have really joined in on this discussion otherwise.  People can enjoy the endings all they want.  I think that if the player has to make up reasons why a cycle is ready or how the Synthesis ending works, it isn't a well written ending and should have been scrapped/revised.  People can enjoy speculating, but some actual reasoning behind Synthesis would make it a lot more of a solid ending.

 

My issue with the Control ending isn't so much the fact that the Reapers are left in Shepard's hands.  It's the fact that this AI is trying to offer new solutions to the synthetic threat and offers only one solution that involves a lot of space magic and imagination (Synthesis where organic life is preserved by somehow making everything organic because why not).  If the AI was programmed to find a solution, it should not be offering non-solutions to the player.  That goes against its basic purpose which is kind of character breaking if you consider the Starchild to even really be a character.

 

The Crucible does discriminate though.  It targets Reapers and Synthetics, but general technology is left almost unaffected.  You could say that it only targets Reaper tech, but what exactly is classified as Reaper tech?  Anything the Reapers built?  Tech based on Reaper technology?  Thanix cannons are based on Reaper tech if I remember, how will they be affected.  EDI is also only based on Reaper tech.  I think it's too much of a jump to say Reaper tech is only affected, rather I think the Catalyst and the writers literally meant only Synthetics and Reapers will be affected.  But it is a decent interpretation that would be better if there was more information given to the player.

The relays do much more than overload though, even in the extended cut.  In the high EMS destroy ending, the fleet passes by a relay that is literally in pieces and inoperable.

 

It's actually never stated that the Crucible was built as a weapon.  The Catalyst says that it was just built by a previous cycle and became more effective with each cycle.  It's kind of hard to go from weapon to power source anyways.  There's no mention of the Citadel later incorporating the Crucible, that just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would Reapers incorporate less advanced technology to work with their more advanced tech?

Nobody understood the purpose of the Crucible and to be honest, I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.  It's a power source to the Citadel.  That means whoever built it must have known the Citadel was more than just a space station.  They built the Crucible to work around the Citadel.  But if other cycles were unable to see the Citadel as more than a station, how could they have?  How did they know how to design the Crucible to act as a power source to the Citadel?  Did they know what they were powering and what it could do?  There's too many questions about its origin that are unanswered.

The Catalyst knows the purpose of the Crucible, otherwise it wouldn't have explained its purpose and origin to Shepard.

And what the Catalyst did to test Synthesis is important.  If the test the Catalyst did in the past have failed, why does it have faith in Synthesis now?  We have to understand what the Catalyst did in the past to help rationalize why it's an option now.  

[voteDC]

I mean the solutions being attached to the Crucible physically, the control handles and the destroy tube. There's a thread for it here with some pretty cool theories, and it's a good idea, makes most sense I think. Because if no organic ever was in this chamber, how could it have been built there?

And then it would fit with the Catalyst saying that the Crucible changed it, added new solutions.

But how did the Crucible add those items, they would have had to have been there before the power source was added. Putting batteries into your remote control for example does not add extra buttons to it.

I think the Keepers are likely the ones who built the chamber or modified it at least. I don't think they are seen as a species any more, but rather just part of the Citadel.

Looking into the Catalyst/Crucible connection just makes my headache because the more I look into it the less it makes sense. 

[AlanC9]

Yet the Crucible, by the Catalyst's own words, is just a power source.

The exact quote is "little more."

[AlanC9]

The Catalyst is indifferent to Shepard taking control.  It offers it as a solution, but says nothing about the consequences other than Shepard dying.  The only ending the Catalyst criticizes is the control one as it views it as a temporary solution.

This is not quite correct. If you pick the Renegade option when discussing Control, the Catalyst's response is "And I do not look forward to being replaced by you. But I would be forced to accept it."

[JasonC Shepard]

This is not quite correct. If you pick the Renegade option when discussing Control, the Catalyst's response is "And I do not look forward to being replaced by you. But I would be forced to accept it."

Thanks for this, I forgot to check over the Renegade option too when I double checked that.

That makes the control ending a little bit more odd for me.  I don't understand why the Catalyst would offer the choice if it's both something it doesn't want and isn't an actual solution.  How is it forced to accept anyways?  It's an AI with control over the most powerful known force in existence minus the Leviathans.  What's stopping it from just leaving and shutting down the Crucible/Citadel like it does if you choose refusal?

[Darth Malignus]

Oh, another thing that always bugged me, which I haven't read through the walls of text to check whether or not someone else besides me thought that odd:

The Catalyst claims the harvests is a safeguard against a devastating war between synthetics and organics. In Shepard's cycle the synthetics are being threatened by organics. Okay, "threatened" may be overstating things a bit, but overall the "true" Geth leave people of the galaxy alone. Eventually they even become their friends and allies.

In fact, the only synthetics who even pose a serious threat to the organics in this particular cycle are the heretics, who join Sovereign to seize the Citadel.

Now, we know that The Catalyst and, through it's extensions, the Reapers know of this. Sovereign was itself left behind as a vanguard to moniter the situation for 50.000 freaking years. The sign that synthetics and organics have finally joined forces in a combined fleet to protect all life in the galaxy ought to be a serious heads-up to The Catalyst, but the damn thing seems completely oblivious to that fact.

I don't even wanna hear "Well, maybe it's been hardcoded that way. Maybe it can't change it's own programming". The second Shepard stepped in front of it, it was willing to hand over the reins and it's dominance of the galaxy without a moments hesitation. It is an AI clearly capable of rewriting any contingencies it may have had against something like that, and it has, what, 1 billion years worth of accumulated knowledge from all the galactic civilisations during that period? You'd think that the thing would be able to deduce that maybe something was off when Legion and the true Geth got into the mix. Hell, it's located ON THE CITADEL! Everything Shepard and the Citadel races know it knows.

It admits that the fact Shepard is standing in front of it is a sign that the whole Reaper solution is flawed. I cannot wrap my mind around why on Earth that didn't dawn on it much sooner than that? Sovereign was the one who forced the confrontation between the heretics and organics to begin with. The Quarian war with the Geth wasn't even a conflict created by the desire of an AI to eradicate organics, but self defence.

 

Thanks for this, I forgot to check over the Renegade option too when I double checked that.

That makes the control ending a little bit more odd for me.  I don't understand why the Catalyst would offer the choice if it's both something it doesn't want and isn't an actual solution.  How is it forced to accept anyways?  It's an AI with control over the most powerful known force in existence minus the Leviathans.  What's stopping it from just leaving and shutting down the Crucible/Citadel like it does if you choose refusal?

I see I wasn't the only one who wondered. It's simply, really. Because the plothole is the size of the Presidium Ring. That's why. There simply is no logical reason for it. It gives no thought to being replaced by Shepard or outright destroyed what so ever, but shutting itself down, cooperating with the races of the galaxy or simply surrendering through realising the flaws in it's own deductions about the eon-long conflict between organics and synthetics is apparently impossible.

A clear cut case of the storywriters lacking pretty much any kind of logical reasoning.

[themikefest]

Thanks for this, I forgot to check over the Renegade option too when I double checked that.

That makes the control ending a little bit more odd for me.  I don't understand why the Catalyst would offer the choice if it's both something it doesn't want and isn't an actual solution.  How is it forced to accept anyways?  It's an AI with control over the most powerful known force in existence minus the Leviathans.  What's stopping it from just leaving and shutting down the Crucible/Citadel like it does if you choose refusal?

If your ems is below 2700, this is what the dialogue will be

 

S: I didn't fight this war just to give up everything I have

C: And I don't look forward to being replaced by you, but...I would be forced to accept it

S: Not if I refuse to do it.

C: True, but you will be bound by these decisions, just like I am

S: I'm not bound by anything. Not by you or these choices

C: If you don't choose, you will be forced to accept our dominion. The harvest will proceed

[JasonC Shepard]

Oh, another thing that always bugged me, which I haven't read through the walls of text to check whether or not someone else besides me thought that odd:

The Catalyst claims the harvests is a safeguard against a devastating war between synthetics and organics. In Shepard's cycle the synthetics are being threatened by organics. Okay, "threatened" may be overstating things a bit, but overall the "true" Geth leave people of the galaxy alone. Eventually they even become their friends and allies.

In fact, the only synthetics who even pose a serious threat to the organics in this particular cycle are the heretics, who join Sovereign to seize the Citadel.

Now, we know that The Catalyst and, through it's extensions, the Reapers know of this. Sovereign was itself left behind as a vanguard to moniter the situation for 50.000 freaking years. The sign that synthetics and organics have finally joined forces in a combined fleet to protect all life in the galaxy ought to be a serious heads-up to The Catalyst, but the damn thing seems completely oblivious to that fact.

I don't even wanna hear "Well, maybe it's been hardcoded that way. Maybe it can't change it's own programming". The second Shepard stepped in front of it, it was willing to hand over the reins and it's dominance of the galaxy without a moments hesitation. It is an AI clearly capable of rewriting any contingencies it may have had against something like that, and it has, what, 1 billion years worth of accumulated knowledge from all the galactic civilisations during that period? You'd think that the thing would be able to deduce that maybe something was off when Legion and the true Geth got into the mix. Hell, it's located ON THE CITADEL! Everything Shepard and the Citadel races know it knows.

It admits that the fact Shepard is standing in front of it is a sign that the whole Reaper solution is flawed. I cannot wrap my mind around why on Earth that didn't dawn on it much sooner than that? Sovereign was the one who forced the confrontation between the heretics and organics to begin with. The Quarian war with the Geth wasn't even a conflict created by the desire of an AI to eradicate organics, but self defence.

 

I see I wasn't the only one who wondered. It's simply, really. Because the plothole is the size of the Presidium Ring. That's why. There simply is no logical reason for it. It gives no thought to being replaced by Shepard or outright destroyed what so ever, but shutting itself down, cooperating with the races of the galaxy or simply surrendering through realising the flaws in it's own deductions about the eon-long conflict between organics and synthetics is apparently impossible.

A clear cut case of the storywriters lacking pretty much any kind of logical reasoning.

Yeah, the Catalyst clearly isn't a hardcoded AI as it was specifically designed to oversee the relations between Synthetics and Organics on its own without any help.  Its solution wasn't the Leviathan's programming, it was its own decision after thinking about it over a cup of tea for a second.

I think what's worse is the introduction of the Catalyst itself though.  You've got to wonder what the hell this all-powerful AI with control over the Citadel and Reapers was doing during Mass Effect 1 when Sovereign was trying to use the Citadel as a Mass Relay.

 

 

If your ems is below 2700, this is what the dialogue will be

 

S: I didn't fight this war just to give up everything I have

C: And I don't look forward to being replaced by you, but...I would be forced to accept it

S: Not if I refuse to do it.

C: True, but you will be bound by these decisions, just like I am

S: I'm not bound by anything. Not by you or these choices

C: If you don't choose, you will be forced to accept our dominion. The harvest will proceed

Is that dialogue based on low EMS then or is it a renegade option?  I'm having a hard time finding a video where the Renegade option was chosen.

[themikefest]

@themikefest I saw your original post and I feel very conflicted about this, because while I appreciate that the ending was more complex than a simple final battle with the ultimate enemy, in a sense I agree that one of the problems ME3 is how it dropped what ME2 was building on, and it would have been nice that we encountered Harbinger again and fight him. What's more, it would have been even better if they combined both ideas for the ending, something like the Leviathans created the Reapers for some function, maybe like guard or watch over civilizations in the galaxy and Harbinger went rogue and united the Reapers under his control against the creators to get the power for themselves and harvest advanced civilizations for some obscure reason, but then killing Harbinger would kill all the others...

I don't believe it would've been too hard to have Harbinger be the focus in stopping the reapers

 

Have Leviathan say that they built the reapers to build the relay network and Citadel. They were just another tool. Harbinger was made to be the head reaper to control the others. Over time the reapers rebelled like the geth against the quarians. Harbinger decided to turn the organic into its pawns to build more reapers. Every 50 000 years they did this so the organics would not get too powerful.

 

In ME2, they used the collectors to human colonists and turn them into husks to use them as workers to build another reaper. Arrival dlc can be the same

 

ME3 can be similiar to what it is now except Shepard is building alliances and gathering resources to attack Harbinger. The higher the ems, the easier it is to destroy Harbinger. During missions when fighting the uglies, Harbinger will ASSUME CONTROL and talk smack to Shepard. The only hard part would be to figure out how Shepard and squad would get inside Harbinger to destroy him. Once inside, Shepard runs into wave after wave of uglies to get to the drive core. Once Harbinger is destroyed, the other reapers stop and fly back to dark space.

[themikefest]

Is that dialogue based on low EMS then or is it a renegade option?  I'm having a hard time finding a video where the Renegade option was chosen.

Yes. If ems is below 2700 and the player chooses the bottom right dialogue, that dialogue will happen. I have not found a video with that dialogue.

 

I posted that dialogue here in another thread about ems along with other stuff.

[Darth Malignus]

Yeah, the Catalyst clearly isn't a hardcoded AI as it was specifically designed to oversee the relations between Synthetics and Organics on its own without any help.  Its solution wasn't the Leviathan's programming, it was its own decision after thinking about it over a cup of tea for a second.

I think what's worse is the introduction of the Catalyst itself though.  You've got to wonder what the hell this all-powerful AI with control over the Citadel and Reapers was doing during Mass Effect 1 when Sovereign was trying to use the Citadel as a Mass Relay.

 

 

Is that dialogue based on low EMS then or is it a renegade option?  I'm having a hard time finding a video where the Renegade option was chosen.

The 3 options, along with many of the outcomes from the whole last segment of the game, pretty much from when you enter the Citadel are based on the EMS. The higher the EMS, the less damage the Crucible takes before docking, the more options you get to choose from of those 3 options (Merge, Destroy, Synthesis), the less damage Earth sustains when the Crucible triggers etc., and last, but not least, Shepard may actually survive. Or at least, you can get the scene with the N7 chestplate taking a breath in the rubble. You don't actually see him in person, but who else would it be?

If the EMS is at the lowest, apparently whether or not you destroyed the Collector base in ME2 plays a factor in the choice you're given. I suppose that if you destroyed it, you get the Destroy ending, and if you spared it, you get the Merge ending, but don't take my word for it. I can't really remember which one goes where, but I seem to remember those are it. In this scenario, however, Earth is fried, no matter which option you're force fed. In the literal sense of the word "fried".

To put it short, low EMS basically means you risk getting limited options to pick and you risk all sorts of bad things happening outside in space. Earth may be obliterated, The Normandy may end up getting destroyed (I seem to remember that being possible) and so on. Basically, the lower the score, the more you and everyone else have a chance of getting screwed one way or another.

As for the conversation with The Catalyst itself, it's not a Renegade/Paragon conversation. Well, the wording of some of the lines where you tell it to get lost seem to have a Renegade touch to it, but it's just normal dialogue paths you can take. The whole long-winded dialogue WILL eventually guide you towards taking a pick, no matter how long you try to drag it out. With one exception. Ultimately, you could in the Extended Endings DLC ask The Catalyst to take a hike and refuse the options all together, but that'll get you the ending with all civilisation as we know it being harvested and the galactic community going extinct.

But no Blue/Red lines of dialogue in that last conversation with the 6-year old glowstick. Only in that previous bit with the Illusive Man.

[themikefest]

If the EMS is at the lowest, apparently whether or not you destroyed the Collector base in ME2 plays a factor in the choice you're given. I suppose that if you destroyed it, you get the Destroy ending, and if you spared it, you get the Merge ending, but don't take my word for it. I can't really remember which one goes where, but I seem to remember those are it. In this scenario, however, Earth is fried, no matter which option you're force fed. In the literal sense of the word "fried".

If the player destroys the base in ME2 and ems is below 1750, destroy is the only ending available. Earth is scorched and the door to the Normandy doesn't open suggesting everyone onboard is dead

If the base is saved in ME2 and ems is below 1750, control will be the only ending available. The Normandy is stuck on the unknown planet being repaired. The memorial scene will still happen. The galaxy is shown being rebuilt