181 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

And how many people would've been saved if the beacon on Thessia was revealed earlier?

None or catastrophic failure. The thing only activates when a prothean or Shepard is close. As far as we know, no one expected that a VI popped out with vital information. It was a hail mary pass. We picked up quite a few  different prothean artifacts in fecth quests. Tevos said with any luck it could be, that it´s the key. Ah ok, probably has the same scriptreading powers TIM possesses  in ME 2.

 

So anyways, Shepard, because a freighter is unavailable,* flies to Thessia sometime after his first arrival at the Citadel, Vendetta pops out and tells him, only when the Crucible is finished will I reveal to you the most obvious secret, jumps back in, done. Let´s say he tells you the Catalyst is already in a finished state, so you only have to move the Crucible to it.You can try superhacking but somehow I doubt that the council and allies have Cerberus plot eh I mean reaper enhanced superhacking skills. So well, same result more or less.

 

Or the asari dutifully report that they have a thing, their science team sets up shop in the temple and estalish a QEC link with Project Crucible. No need to fetch the thing, Shep never shows up, Reapers appear, Thessia gone and Vendetta sleeps through the whole thing. No one ever found out, galaxy is doomed. Or let´s say they transport the beacon to project Crucible with a ship which isn´t the Normandy, nothing ever happens, doom. Or they call in Shep and Proty when they get desperate, because uh well they know something perhaps. So Shep walks in, senses something special, asks around but no one bothered to bring these ancient scrolls. No one knew that they were more than museum pieces. No activation possible, Doom. Or perhaps they brought them, you click it, Vendetta Clippy shows up, please finish Crucible first.

 

Oh and actually the Catalyst has access to the Crucible data via TIM or well it should actually have them from preprothean times. After pondering over the blueprints our shiny little AI should have been able to deduce what the Catalyst is actually. OTOH the thing is stupid, so perhaps not. 

 

No one in the gameworld really knew that the beacon is more important than the statue of Hesperia, the obelisk of Karza or the prothean data files on Zion which the Alliance seemingly never bothered to mention, too. We know, because it´s a mission but ingame?

 

So well the outcome is pretty much the same or worse.

 

*transport from uninvaded world to project site doesn´t need the stealth frigate

[themikefest]

None or catastrophic failure.

You don't know that just like I don't know if anyone could've been saved. The moment the asari failed to reveal that artifact, it took away any opportunity to know if revealing it earlier would've made a difference
 

Tevos said with any luck it could be, that it´s the key.

Since she is dead in all my playthroughs, I don't know what she says. Her replacement, when asked by Shepard why now, she will say, "there's a balance of power we don't want to upset". Meaning they don't want to lose their number one ranking. They didn't care about the other species and only when the reapers come knocking on their door, do they reveal they have something that might help.

 

Or the asari dutifully report that they have a thing,

All the asari councilor had to do is mention to Shepard that her people recently discovered something related to the Protheans and are currently investigating it and if anything is found that could help the crucible, she can let Shepard or even Hackett know


Also on Mars Liara mentions she discovered plans for a weapon that could wipeout the reapers. For her to say that she had to of seen the plans and noticed that Thessia has the answer to explaining what the catalyst is

[corkyspetals]

Personally I try to have a certain mindset for Shepards that are or aren't open to some things. If I play a Shepard that doesn't care about synthetics, even chose to destroy the geth on Rannoch, why would I even consider anything but Destroy? If I favour Synthetics and want them to have a chance I picked Destroy in the past too (this was a Shepard that wanted to give Synthetics a chance, but couldn't broker peace on Rannoch and chose the quarians), but a different Shepard could pick Synthesis or even Control. While I as a player don't like anything but Destroy, maybe I'll pick something else at some point for my Shepards.

 

 

I hear what you're saying.  I think maybe I'm not really a role player.  My character pretty much always does what I would do (or what I like to delude myself into thinking I would do in those circumstances).

[AlanC9]

That must reduce replayability a bit.

I can't bring myself to play a character who woulddo some of the things in Bio games -- siding with the Templars or exterminating the Dalish in DA:O, for instance. But I have been able to play most choices in ME3. Still haven't shot Wrex or Mordin, though. I've also never been able to destroy Maelon's data in ME2, because I can't play a character that dumb.

[bas273]

That must reduce replayability a bit.

I can't bring myself to play a character who woulddo some of the things in Bio games -- siding with the Templars or exterminating the Dalish in DA:O, for instance. But I have been able to play most choices in ME3. Still haven't shot Wrex or Mordin, though. I've also never been able to destroy Maelon's data in ME2, because I can't play a character that dumb.

 

Really, dumb? Do you cure the genophage most of the time?

 

From an ethical point of view you can easily argue that any data obtained in that way would not be worth preserving, no matter the contents (even if it can save lives). Because then you are still in a way justifying (what is in your view) necessary evil.

 

Unless curing the genophage can somehow alter Krogan birthrates instead of restore them (as in: there'll still be a genophage but you are just slightly reducing its efects), you will pretty much doom the galaxy to a new Krogan rebellion no matter if Wrex is alive (best case scenario the Rebellion will happen a few years later). The birthrate (+ amount of fertile Krogan females) is simply too high plus they're too aggressive by nature.

[MSandt]

I can't tell if this is bait or not.

The entire game series is extremely dialogue heavy and involves the player learning more about the galaxy, cultures, technology, etc through this dialogue.  You inquire about details all the time no matter the situation really and no matter what's going on.  The player constantly learns more and more about the galaxy and what it's like as you continue through the series.  There's also a heavy focus on squadmates and character development.

 

 

But not everything needs to be explained, especially at that point where it makes no difference anyway. A bit of mystery about the origins of the Reapers is called for. Many who have complained about the ending approach the scene as if Shepard should act like a geek attending a Star Trek convention rather than a soldier trying to end the Reaper threat. The dialog scene was overlong already in the original ending, and the EC only made it worse.

[Darth Malignus]

But not everything needs to be explained, especially at that point where it makes no difference anyway. A bit of mystery about the origins of the Reapers is called for. Many who have complained about the ending approach the scene as if Shepard should act like a geek attending a Star Trek convention rather than a soldier trying to end the Reaper threat. The dialog scene was overlong already in the original ending, and the EC only made it worse.

Which makes the simple approach, by scrapping the whole scene with The Catalyst and making Harbinger the boss to take out in order to score a win more credible to me. To me, that is. Not necessarily to others.

[angol fear]

Which makes the simple approach, by scrapping the whole scene with The Catalyst and making Harbinger the boss to take out in order to score a win more credible to me. To me, that is. Not necessarily to others.

 

So the reapers would have no purpose? (if you remove the catalyst scene, that's what happens) Let's see :

killing for killing is impossible because of Sovereign speech : Sovereign talked about order and chaos, so he talked about a purpose.

Reproduction? That's impossible, it can't be their purpose because their way of thinking is synthetic, not organic.

 

So they have no reason (which is incoherent with the writing of the trilogy, the reapers have given too many clues to make us think that there was a purpose of the harvest). So the reapers are just evil. So manicheism...

So Harbinger would be the boss, and killing him would lead to victory? seriously? If there is no Harbinger in Mass Effect 3 it's to avoid that idea : there is no boss to kill, the reapers all do the harvest (Harbinger is a reaper among other reapers). Killing one reaper won't stop the harvest. This idea isn't credible, it's just the desire of the reproduction of a cliché. Why would a stronger "enemy" surrender if they are all stronger than us, that's strange, isn't it?

 

Ok to you it may seem credible but objectivly it isn't.

[Dantriges]

You don't know that just like I don't know if anyone could've been saved. The moment the asari failed to reveal that artifact, it took away any opportunity to know if revealing it earlier would've made a difference

The Crucible is finished after Cronos, Vendetta tells you that he reveals the info when you are finished. Unless you risk to hack the thing, the outcome is more or less the same.
 

Since she is dead in all my playthroughs, I don't know what she says. Her replacement, when asked by Shepard why now, she will say, "there's a balance of power we don't want to upset". Meaning they don't want to lose their number one ranking. They didn't care about the other species and only when the reapers come knocking on their door, do they reveal they have something that might help.

Says the same.
  

All the asari councilor had to do is mention to Shepard that her people recently discovered something related to the Protheans and are currently investigating it and if anything is found that could help the crucible, she can let Shepard or even Hackett know

As far as we know they were doing the same thing just without telling you.
 

Also on Mars Liara mentions she discovered plans for a weapon that could wipeout the reapers. For her to say that she had to of seen the plans and noticed that Thessia has the answer to explaining what the catalyst is

Well, does Tevos actually know about the beacon or any specifics? She´s not a scientist versed on prothean lore as far as we know and the beacon is a thing that was constantly researched for 50.000 years, 48.000 of these before the council was formed. Whatever it had as info, which is accessible without the magic key was probably coaxed out of it 10.000 BCE or so. The whole situation is a completely contrived mess, just to put a sinister spin on the asari key to space, the same one everyone had, prothean tech.

The situation is actually more like "uh well, we were desperate, some people looked into old museum pieces, the prothean stuff we had on planet, which we used thousands of years ago but is now gathering dust and praise the goddess we found something odd."

Or in short, the writing for Citadel III and Thessia is on the same level as reaper tactics.

[themikefest]

The Crucible is finished after Cronos, Vendetta tells you that he reveals the info when you are finished. Unless you risk to hack the thing, the outcome is more or less the same.

Again you don't know that. If the beacon was revealed earlier and the outcome was the same, fine. But it wasn't. So there's no way to know if it would've made a difference or not because that opportunity has come and gone. If Cerberus is able to hack the thing why can't the Alliance or someone else?
 

As far as we know they were doing the same thing just without telling you.

I doubt it.
 

Well, does Tevos actually know about the beacon or any specifics?

She might not, but her replacement did just by the way she acts when giving the location of the beacon to Shepard.

It still doesn't explain how Liara is able to mention that the device can wipeout the reapers without having seen the plans to verify that is what the device can do.
 

[Lumix19]

Again you don't know that. If the beacon was revealed earlier and the outcome was the same, fine. But it wasn't. So there's no way to know if it would've made a difference or not because that opportunity has come and gone. If Cerberus is able to hack the thing why can't the Alliance or someone else?
 

I doubt it.
 

She might not, but her replacement did just by the way she acts when giving the location of the beacon to Shepard.

It still doesn't explain how Liara is able to mention that the device can wipeout the reapers without having seen the plans to verify that is what the device can do.
 

To be fair Cerberus had Reaper tech, probably far more capable of hacking prothean relics than some Alliance technician.

[themikefest]

To be fair Cerberus had Reaper tech, probably far more capable of hacking prothean relics than some Alliance technician.

Maybe. It still took away the opportunity for the Alliance to make any attempt to hack the thing

[Lumix19]

Maybe. It still took away the opportunity for the Alliance to make any attempt to hack the thing

True.

[Dantriges]

There is the possibility that the VI gets damaged/destroyed (including the data), refuses to talk or that there are other safeguards which Cerberus superpowered hacking skills easily circumvented. But ok , we haven´t seen anything of that, apparently it´s super easy to download a complete prothean VI into a run of the mill omnitool.

And then? Oh the Citadel is the Catalyst. And then you still have to build the Crucible. Wanna park the galactic fleet there and hope no one finds out everyone is there (I doubt it with the collective intelligence residing there) or leave it less defended and hope no one finds out?

 

 

She might not, but her replacement did just by the way she acts when giving the location of the beacon to Shepard.

 

I meant in the council meeting. We don´t know if she got briefed in the meantime. And she indicated a possibility. Anyways no one knew Vendetta was in there, so how was she supposed to know that? Perhaps she also had TIMs supernatural power to read the game script or so.

[themikefest]

 

I meant in the council meeting. We don´t know if she got briefed in the meantime. And she indicated a possibility. Anyways no one knew Vendetta was in there, so how was she supposed to know that? Perhaps she also had TIMs supernatural power to read the game script or so.

I never said anything about knowing Vendetta would be in the beacon? I only said she knows about the beacon

[Dantriges]

It´s about "with any luck it may help you" or "suffice it to say, it may help you identify the Catalyst. We found a ton of prothean artifacts, data discs and so on, I wonder how she had known it could contain relevant data instead of a message from Javik to his old love Avikara or the prothean equivalent to spam mail. Was there a message in the data stream "dear reader, there might be information about the Catalyst inside, please bring a prothean to access?

[MSandt]

Which makes the simple approach, by scrapping the whole scene with The Catalyst and making Harbinger the boss to take out in order to score a win more credible to me. To me, that is. Not necessarily to others.

 

Then it'd be like every other game on the market. I love the original ending even if the dialog goes on for a bit too long. The setup for that scene is just brilliant, especially the contrast between the infernal (bloody walls, dark red light, disorientation) first half and the heaven-like (blue light, nice piano track, presence of a god-like being) second half. That transition still gives me goosebumps.

[CYRAX470]

I must be one of the few people who doesn't mind it if things are "like everything else". I sure as hell wouldn't have mind if the whole game was about fighting Harbinger and defeating him in some giant epic space battle. Just because it follows a normal established trend, doesn't mean it can't be fun still.

[caridounette]

I just replayed the trilogy after a few years, this time with DLCs. I had mostly forgotten the ending. I remembered the Reapers purpose was along the line of ''endless cycle of harvesting advanced life forms to let the others grow".

 

Honestly, I still dont get where the need for Synthesis comes from. Maybe I missed something again.

 

When are we ever showed that synthetics and organics cant eventually collaborate? We fixed the geth - quarian war and EDI evolved as a full sentient. For all I could see, the only organic-synthetic unresolved issue in eons was the Reapers. Geths and EDI figured things out pretty fast on their own (in comparison to the endless cycle situation). 

 

All we know from past civilisations is that a big dominant race (Leviathan) cant figure how to live in peace with the sentient machines it created and that a big empire (Protheans) cant figure out how to beat them. Did I miss something very big? Some proof of sort of the big recurring threat?

 

What is the point of synthesis? I really just didnt see it even after replaying the games >.<

[angol fear]

That's very simple. The problem is the opposition organics /synthetics. The first game is about that opposition (synthetics are enemies). The second shows that it's more complicated : Legion tells us that all geth are not with the reapers. The third game explains you with rannoch almost everything (the mission you see the whole story, the moment the war starts is very important). So yes in the end it gives you the possibility to create peace but you forget the context. With that peace you solved nothing.

So basically, synthesis is a possibility to overpass the otherness that create fear. The whole logic about evolution of organics and synthetics is very important to understand that.

[AlanC9]

Really, dumb? Do you cure the genophage most of the time?

From an ethical point of view you can easily argue that any data obtained in that way would not be worth preserving, no matter the contents (even if it can save lives). Because then you are still in a way justifying (what is in your view) necessary evil.

Sorry for the long delay; didn't see this until now.

Anyway, yes, throwing away the data is dumb. What Shepard's planning to do in the future doesn't matter. Plans change. Situations change. It's better to have a capability and not need it than it is to need the capability and not have it because you threw it away.

"Justifying" is mystical tripe. Maelon already did what he did. Right, wrong, doesn't matter. The victims are just as dead either way, and they'll stay dead whether you throw away the data or not.I suppose there are situations where you might want to worry about setting some sort of precedent, but that can't apply here since Shepard and Mordin aren't going to tell anyone they have the data unless they're going to use it.

[caridounette]

That's very simple. The problem is the opposition organics /synthetics. The first game is about that opposition (synthetics are enemies). The second shows that it's more complicated : Legion tells us that all geth are not with the reapers. The third game explains you with rannoch almost everything (the mission you see the whole story, the moment the war starts is very important). So yes in the end it gives you the possibility to create peace but you forget the context. With that peace you solved nothing.

So basically, synthesis is a possibility to overpass the otherness that create fear. The whole logic about evolution of organics and synthetics is very important to understand that.

 

 

I get what synthesis tries to bring and its pretty fine in itself. Its the ending I took the first time.

 

What i did not get is the feeling that the universe needed it badly at the end of the trilogy.

 

Maybe its because its set in space. I mean we already have the alien races. ''Otherness that creates fear'' sure is central to the game but it did not make me want to merge Quarians and Krogans with Humans. It made me want to live along side them. With all the good days and bad days that freewill can bring onto our civilizations.

 

Maybe its because of EDI and how she evolves during the span of the game. She made me pretty confident she can handle herself around organics, how ever flawed we are. Kinda counterproductive in the 'we need this badly' department.

 

Maybe its because we got no examples of unresolvable organics/synthetics conflicts other than the Reapers themselves. Geths-Quarians war was just as ugly and just as resolvable as the Genophage was. And it resolved the same way, with turning to a common enemy (and Shepard, if we really want to give it to the messianic figure).

 

Maybe its because the Leviathan race got reaperized by the AI created to solve their problem. I know they say the problem would comeback, but its coming from a race who failed at peace and the AI they created... how is that proof of anything?

 

The only ''race'' that actually baddly need the synthesis at the end of the game are the Reapers. They are the ones who cant play well with others. They cant break their own genocidal circle. Synthesis actually saves them. It sure benefits everyone (in hindsight, its pretty great), but the game sure did not make me feel compassion toward them (or at least understanding) enough to look for more options than control or destroy for Shepard (even if synthesis is what I feel is the happy/progressive ending).

[angol fear]

Ok,but the ending is about making a choice : there is no good or bad choice. Destroy is a possibility that makes the galaxy be free to create their own futur. Control is a possibility that depends on how the player wants to control the galaxy. Synthesis is a possibility that needs "faith" from the player (that's the developers's word). The point of view will lead to a decision. So the galaxy doesn't need more synthesis than any other ending, it's just a matter of point of view.

The peace you're talking about can be seen more like a truce than a real peace. And the events on rannoch  show clearly that there were some quarians who tried to defend the geth but with just a minority a war can be created (the rannoch mission about the history of the conflict and what one quarian did when Shepard was on Rannoch).

The problem with the Krogan is the same : is it real peace? Will they be peaceful in the futur?

But since the first game, organics and synthetics are opposed (Sovereign explained it clearly).A war organics vs organics will not lead to a destruction of organic life. A war between organics and synthetics can lead to the destruction of the organic life. That's why it's a more important conflict.

 

The problem can't be denied (it's the whole writing of the trilogy which is about that), the solution can be discussed (they didn't want the player to choose the "good" ending, synthesis was not supposed to be better than the other choices, people may have interpreted it this way but it's wrong).

[caridounette]

 

The problem can't be denied (it's the whole writing of the trilogy which is about that), the solution can be discussed (they didn't want the player to choose the "good" ending, synthesis was not supposed to be better than the other choices, people may have interpreted it this way but it's wrong).

 

 

Youre right they did not intend to make a 'good' ending, its the starchild that tells you synthesis is better but he may have his own selfpreservation motives . But all ending are pretty much a faith leap. 

 

Synthesis requires faith to believe its needed/possible on the spot. Specially since its the Reapers telling you to do it. The only unsolvable organic/synthetic conflict in eons we know of is their own and they did not do much to appear trustworthy. You also gotta believe/fear the inevitably of the Total War. 

 

Destroy needs you to have faith that conflicts can be solved in the future. I think the epilogue was too nice with the idea we would all just cooperate after the war. Most likely there will always be the need for ppl like Shepard to move things along. Good thing Shepard survived.

 

Control needs you to have faith Shepard wont turn on the galaxy after 50 000 years of trying to sort things out. Hopefully your Shepard was more patient than mine.

[Iakus]

Sorry for the long delay; didn't see this until now.

Anyway, yes, throwing away the data is dumb. What Shepard's planning to do in the future doesn't matter. Plans change. Situations change. It's better to have a capability and not need it than it is to need the capability and not have it because you threw it away.

"Justifying" is mystical tripe. Maelon already did what he did. Right, wrong, doesn't matter. The victims are just as dead either way, and they'll stay dead whether you throw away the data or not.I suppose there are situations where you might want to worry about setting some sort of precedent, but that can't apply here since Shepard and Mordin aren't going to tell anyone they have the data unless they're going to use it.

Just to point out, there is an option to destroy the data because you think the genophage was the right move.  No mystical morality about it,