39 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicNewb]

We have a krogan ally in this game, which leads me to believe the krogan were ultimately treated fairly in ME3.

[Fredward]

Or s/he got on the ship before all that went down.

[RoboticWater]

Going by what BioWare has said regarding the ending, I highly doubt that they would canonize any major decision in Mass Effect 3.

 

Having a single krogan squadmate proves nothing nor does having a squadmate of any particular race for that matter. Not only is it highly likely that our crew left for Andromeda prior to ME3, but ME3 never explicitly states that you destroy every single person of an entire species. Even in the outcome of the geth/quarian conflict, there will probably be enough stragglers from the losing side to justify a single squadmate in ME:A.

[Killroy]

Why do people seem to think the Genophage is Krogan super-AIDS? It reduces fertility and fetus viability, nothing more. And why do people seem to think the Krogan aren't too dangerous to have their population controlled? Every female can have 1000 kids and they're violent, warlike people with a grudge.

[Broganisity]

Why do people seem to think the Genophage is Krogan super-AIDS? It reduces fertility and fetus viability, nothing more. And why do people seem to think the Krogan aren't too dangerous to have their population controlled? Every female can have 1000 kids and they're violent, warlike people with a grudge.

[KaiserShep]

Why do people seem to think the Genophage is Krogan super-AIDS? It reduces fertility and fetus viability, nothing more. And why do people seem to think the Krogan aren't too dangerous to have their population controlled? Every female can have 1000 kids and they're violent, warlike people with a grudge.

 

Then the answer is clear. While it might not make a whole lot of sense if you think of the numbers, the story basically frames the genophage as the final nail in their coffin if they help the turians fight the reapers without a cure for their species. So, if they're too dangerous for the cure, then let them die. 

[Ahglock]

Then the answer is clear. While it might not make a whole lot of sense if you think of the numbers, the story basically frames the genophage as the final nail in their coffin if they help the turians fight the reapers without a cure for their species. So, if they're too dangerous for the cure, then let them die. 

 

The only nail in their coffin was their own desire to kill everything.  The genophage reduced their birth rate to basically human norms, given their long lives, thick hide, regeneration etc if they die out with human style birth rates when no one is invading them, its on them. 

[EpicNewb]

Going by what BioWare has said regarding the ending, I highly doubt that they would canonize any major decision in Mass Effect 3.

 

Having a single krogan squadmate proves nothing nor does having a squadmate of any particular race for that matter. Not only is it highly likely that our crew left for Andromeda prior to ME3, but ME3 never explicitly states that you destroy every single person of an entire species. Even in the outcome of the geth/quarian conflict, there will probably be enough stragglers from the losing side to justify a single squadmate in ME:A.

Even Shepard refusing all the options prevented by the star child?

[ZombiePopper]

Even Shepard refusing all the options prevented by the star child?

"**** just got real"

Why do people seem to think the Genophage is Krogan super-AIDS? It reduces fertility and fetus viability, nothing more. And why do people seem to think the Krogan aren't too dangerous to have their population controlled? Every female can have 1000 kids and they're violent, warlike people with a grudge.

Excellent point.
But.....then......
Why would you even include them in the MEA mission?
That's an easy Risk assessment.
Correct?

[KaiserShep]

The only nail in their coffin was their own desire to kill everything.  The genophage reduced their birth rate to basically human norms, given their long lives, thick hide, regeneration etc if they die out with human style birth rates when no one is invading them, its on them. 

 

But that's just it; something is invading them. If this was during a state of relative peace, then it would be an obvious case of their own fatalism working against them (though there is the question of the psychological effect the genophage would have on an entire population), but now they're forced to fight reapers that are landing on their planet and attempting to choke their atmosphere, and being shipped off to help turians hold Palaven. The impression I got from the series was that the krogan could never afford to do something like this while they were still afflicted with the genophage. 

 

Wrex had a solution that seemed to have good potential to work long-term, but that plan went out the window when the galaxy got invaded. 

[Ahglock]

But that's just it; something is invading them. If this was during a state of relative peace, then it would be an obvious case of their own fatalism working against them (though there is the question of the psychological effect the genophage would have on an entire population), but now they're forced to fight reapers that are landing on their planet and attempting to choke their atmosphere, and being shipped off to help turians hold Palaven. The impression I got from the series was that the krogan could never afford to do something like this while they were still afflicted with the genophage. 

 

Because the reapers need dozens of years to secure one planet? If you are relying on people being born and growing up to keep the fight going, the fight was lost. I never got the impression that they couldn't afford to do it, just that they were unwilling to do it unless the genophage was cured. And the unwillingness had nothing to do with possible being wiped out, just a eff the galaxy mindset.

[KaiserShep]

Because the reapers need dozens of years to secure one planet? If you are relying on people being born and growing up to keep the fight going, the fight was lost. I never got the impression that they couldn't afford to do it, just that they were unwilling to do it unless the genophage was cured. And the unwillingness had nothing to do with possible being wiped out, just a eff the galaxy mindset.

 

It's not about replacing soldiers so much as it's about maintaining a viable population, which is the whole point of the genophage anyway. If they could afford to be shipped off to Palaven to help the turians, the rebellions would have lasted until that planet's ecosystems crashed. That they can't afford it is the whole point. There are only 2+ billion krogan on Tuchanka, only some of which are capable of reproducing. If too few of that fraction are left, then the population will crash and it's a wrap.

 

As for unwillingness to help, it's a mix of both, part of which we can blame on Mordin/Padok for providing the Urdnot clan leader with information about the cure in the first place. Had the salarian kept the info to himself, Wrex might have gone ahead to help the turians anyway, since there's really nothing better for them to do except wait for the reapers to choke their planet to death, or he might not because he has no reason to throw krogan lives for turian aid when their only reward will be death. But, in light of that news, it makes sense to make an ultimatum. Wrex doesn't believe that his species will last through the war (a belief that turns out to be true), and an opportunity to undo the genophage will never come again. Now, this isn't to say that Shepard has to believe any of this. You can sabotage the cure with the mindset that they'll just endure and there will be enough to see the end of the war and beyond. This turns out to be wrong, but Shep ain't a soothsayer. 

[Killroy]

Then the answer is clear. While it might not make a whole lot of sense if you think of the numbers, the story basically frames the genophage as the final nail in their coffin if they help the turians fight the reapers without a cure for their species. So, if they're too dangerous for the cure, then let them die.

Again, it's not super-AIDS. It reduces the Krogan birth rate to less dangerous levels. The Krogan have survived for like 1500 years with the Genophage. It's not a Krogan Holocaust.

Excellent point.
But.....then......
Why would you even include them in the MEA mission?
That's an easy Risk assessment.
Correct?

Because nothing kills stuff like Krogans. If you were going to a completely alien galaxy with no knowledge of the threats you will face, wouldn't you want walking atomic bombs on your side? And if a Genophage can be created, a Krogan-killing virus could be made to eradicate them if things get out of hand. The Collectors made one that kills everything but humans so it's easily doable.

[Laughing_Man]

There is only one thing wrong with the Genophage that should have been handled differently.

 

The Genophage should have lowered the number of viable eggs in Krogan females to the equivalent of humans as an example.

(instead of causing a massive amount of dead cubs, females will only give birth to a small number of live ones.)

 

That would solve the ticking population bomb of 1,000 Krogys per birth, will instill in the Krogan the value of their young and their lives,

and will pave the way for a more sane future for them and the rest of the galaxy.

 

This should have been an option in ME3.

 

In a way, the diregard of the clear danger the Krogan birth rate presents to the galaxy, is another example to a case where the enlightened writers in Bioware ignored what makes sense, in favour of a sanitized, politically correct opinion.

 

(Yes, you can sabotage the cure, but the implication that if you can only be a manipulative renegade or an overly-idealistic fool ignorant of danger,

is simply false. There is a middle ground.)

[ZombiePopper]

Because nothing kills stuff like Krogans. If you were going to a completely alien galaxy with no knowledge of the threats you will face, wouldn't you want walking atomic bombs on your side? And if a Genophage can be created, a Krogan-killing virus could be made to eradicate them if things get out of hand. The Collectors made one that kills everything but humans so it's easily doable.

I had forgotten about the collector virus thanks for the remind.
But I was under the impression that MEA was going to have the protag creating settlements (?).
Sure, Krogans are nice to have in a fight but given their potential to destroy-everything, seems like a massive risk, all things considered, esp for a fight we don't really know we're even going to have. Of course the bigger question is; what about when they're not fighting?
I picture a Krogan in a glass case - In Case of Fight Break Glass

[KaiserShep]

Again, it's not super-AIDS. It reduces the Krogan birth rate to less dangerous levels. The Krogan have survived for like 1500 years with the Genophage. It's not a Krogan Holocaust.

 

The whole point is that the genophage is designed to be a trap, so if the krogan ever attempted to wage war against anyone, as they die off, whatever's left has that much less a chance of holding the population steady before it crashes. They survived for over a thousand years with it, but this was also while being largely contained in a demilitarized zone where the only real threats to their population that remained were rival clans that killed each other and other krogan that leave Tuchanka to become mercenaries and join gangs, which in itself was already making their population dip. 

 

However, to say simply that it reduces the krogan birth rate to less dangerous levels does conveniently gloss over the way it actually work. After all, the way it works is to render a number of them stillborn. So, in the end, there are bodies, just not among the adult population as a direct result of the infection. It's just a matter of determining that it's still a good and useful thing in spite of this. 

[DuskWanderer]

I hope we aren't forced to another lecture on the bad salarians and genophage and the good krogan. I had enough when Wreav was in charge. 

[Killroy]

I had forgotten about the collector virus thanks for the remind.
But I was under the impression that MEA was going to have the protag creating settlements (?).

That was part of the leak, yes. But what does that have to do with anything?

Sure, Krogans are nice to have in a fight but given their potential to destroy-everything, seems like a massive risk, all things considered, esp for a fight we don't really know we're even going to have. Of course the bigger question is; what about when they're not fighting?
I picture a Krogan in a glass case - In Case of Fight Break Glass

You keep them in their own space. The leak also mentioned Krogan ships. If you have a large Ark and smaller ships you can keep races like the Krogan, Vorcha, Geth and Rachni isolated from the rest of the populace while still involving them in the expedition.

The whole point is that the genophage is designed to be a trap, so if the krogan ever attempted to wage war against anyone, as they die off, whatever's left has that much less a chance of holding the population steady before it crashes. They survived for over a thousand years with it, but this was also while being largely contained in a demilitarized zone where the only real threats to their population that remained were rival clans that killed each other and other krogan that leave Tuchanka to become mercenaries and join gangs, which in itself was already making their population dip.

Yes, a war they start could cause insurmountable losses to their population. That is a good thing.
 

However, to say simply that it reduces the krogan birth rate to less dangerous levels does conveniently gloss over the way it actually work. After all, the way it works is to render a number of them stillborn. So, in the end, there are bodies, just not among the adult population as a direct result of the infection. It's just a matter of determining that it's still a good and useful thing in spite of this.

Who cares if they're stillborn or not? The effect is the same either way. The alternative is a galactic plague of rampaging monsters.

[KaiserShep]

Yes, a war they start could cause insurmountable losses to their population. That is a good thing.

 

OK, so I can assume then that this is in agreement with my point that any war at all would have the same effect on their population, and a protracted conflict with something like the reapers would likely leave them functionally extinct. I'm not arguing whether or not this is a good thing, but rather if this provides proper motivation for the krogan to demand a cure in the first place. I think that it does. 

 

 

 

Who cares if they're stillborn or not? The effect is the same either way. The alternative is a galactic plague of rampaging monsters.

 

Well, it's just a counterpoint to the oversimplification. That it keeps the "rampaging monsters" at bay doesn't really change the reality of its effects on their society. I imagine if human beings were afflicted by something similar by aliens we were at war with, we'd very much treat it like super-AIDS, but that doesn't matter, because to the rest of the galaxy that suffered from our shenanigans, it would be a good thing. 

[ZombiePopper]

That was part of the leak, yes. But what does that have to do with anything?
.

Picture this, you establish a Turian settlement, next scene,
Krogans fly down and destroy it.
Because Krogans.


They're unpredictable and as you stated "they harbor a grudge".


But I'm just fishing and up for a nice discussion.
I actually want the Krogans in MEA so whatever it takes to get them is fine with me.

[Killroy]

Picture this, you establish a Turian settlement, next scene,
Krogans fly down and destroy it.
Because Krogans.
They're unpredictable and as you stated "they harbor a grudge".
But I'm just fishing and up for a nice discussion.
I actually want the Krogans in MEA so whatever it takes to get them is fine with me.

What's stopping the Krogan from doing that to Turian planets in Milky Way?

[ZombiePopper]

What's stopping the Krogan from doing that to Turian planets in Milky Way?

War with the reapa's

[Killroy]

OK, so I can assume then that this is in agreement with my point that any war at all would have the same effect on their population, and a protracted conflict with something like the reapers would likely leave them functionally extinct. I'm not arguing whether or not this is a good thing, but rather if this provides proper motivation for the krogan to demand a cure in the first place. I think that it does.

 
Protracted conflict with the Reapers would leave every race functionally extinct. The Krogan can demand all they want, but if their survival as a race depends on getting aboard the Ark then they have no room to make demands. A man on death row has no negotiating power.
 

Well, it's just a counterpoint to the oversimplification. That it keeps the "rampaging monsters" at bay doesn't really change the reality of its effects on their society. I imagine if human beings were afflicted by something similar by aliens we were at war with, we'd very much treat it like super-AIDS, but that doesn't matter, because to the rest of the galaxy that suffered from our shenanigans, it would be a good thing.

If human beings could live for 1000+ years, have 1000+ babies, wipe out entire civilizations, and were a constant threat to galactic peace when left unchecked a human Genophage would be entirely justified and hardly the only factor in human unrest. The Krogan are a warlike people and have been for many thousands of years. They were angry, violent monsters before the Genophage.

[Killroy]

War with the reapa's

There was more than a millennium between the Genophage application and the Reaper War. Why didn't the Krogan lay siege to Turian and Salarian worlds in all that time?

[marcelo caldas]

Or s/he got on the ship before all that went down.

 

So, Genophage in him?

 

Not good for a Ark Project.