202 réponses à ce sujet

[rocklikeafool]

Well, you can reject Fenris when he flirts with you. And he takes it pretty well. Getting upset about being rejected isn't as bothersome as the timing for it. I mean, Anders flirts with you the same day you meet him and gets upset for being rejected. I do find that a bit unrealistic. I mean, getting hurt for being rejected by a person you just met? That would indicate some attachment issues.

I suspect that's kind of the point of Anders. He does have those kind of issues. I mean, he has had a spirit from the fade inside of him, and it basically drove him crazy. Is it too hard to believe he would attachment issues, as a (one of many) symptom? 

[Iakus]

I agree with this.  People complain about the Anders rejection causing rivalry points but, frankly, it's one of the most realistic consequences in the game.  Anders is a moody, passionate, dramatic, emotional man.  He puts himself out there and you shoot him down.  Of course he is going to react unfavorably to that.  It's realistic.  Sometimes, a person who you are not interested in will hit on you and, when you reject them, their feelings get hurt.  It's not a big deal.  Anders quickly gets over it.  Plus, the hit in rivalry (which can be avoided, btw, while still not engaging in the romance content) is pretty small given the total amount of friendship/rivalry points in the game. 

 

It's one thing to complain about the tone that Hawke uses when you reject Anders.  It's a totally different thing to complain about getting rivalry points for rejecting the moody, emotional guy who just laid his feelings bare.

But, again, the amount of rivalry points you gain for shooting him down is on par with other, far more extreme activities you do at other points in the game.  It's totally disproportionate to what is going on.  One might even say it's unrealistic, as it makes rejecting him look like a very Big Deal indeed.  Regardless of how easily one can balance the scales.

[AlanC9]

And? Rejection hurts, I think it's entirely reasonable to get negative influence for this.

Not all players approach the games in this manner, I think.

[MaxQuartiroli]

It's an interesting issue. On the one hand, most players seem to want transparent dialogue mechanics. On the other, we often don't want NPC personalities themselves to be transparent. Though some of us do, which is why someone always puts an approval guide on the wiki almost immediately after release.

 

I never had any problem in figuring out how to romance/not romance a companion in previous games where there wasn't an approval system. I think that transparency is something that can also be unrelated to the approval system. In DA:O for example (where you had an approval system) your relationship with Alistair, being him your lover or just a friend, is totally affected by a single dialogue line which is not transparent at all (and that forced many players to choose a dialogue line which sounded totally out of character, especially if you were playing a gentle character).

 

TL;DR approval system doesn't mean automatically transparency

[daveliam]

Well, you can reject Fenris when he flirts with you. And he takes it pretty well. Getting upset about being rejected isn't as bothersome as the timing for it. I mean, Anders flirts with you the same day you meet him and gets upset for being rejected. I do find that a bit unrealistic. I mean, getting hurt for being rejected by a person you just met? That would indicate some attachment issues.

 

See below:

 

I suspect that's kind of the point of Anders. He does have those kind of issues. I mean, he has had a spirit from the fade inside of him, and it basically drove him crazy. Is it too hard to believe he would attachment issues, as a (one of many) symptom? 

 

Agreed.  Anders is, frankly, cuckoo.  He's totally emotional and passionate.  It feels in character for him to go over the top with his emotional reactions.  Fenris, on the other hand, is really reserved and emotionally withdrawn at first.  I would suspect that he'd be fine with rejection given that he's really only looking for something casual at first anyway.

 

But, again, the amount of rivalry points you gain for shooting him down is on par with other, far more extreme activities you do at other points in the game.  It's totally disproportionate to what is going on.  One might even say it's unrealistic, as it makes rejecting him look like a very Big Deal indeed.  Regardless of how easily one can balance the scales.

 

Seems proportional to me, given his reactions in general.  Anders is a clingy, emotional guy.  Unsurprising to me that he doesn't take romantic rejection well.  You've never known someone who acts like that?  Takes things overly emotional and blows stuff out of proportion?

[Iakus]

 

Seems proportional to me, given his reactions in general.  Anders is a clingy, emotional guy.  Unsurprising to me that he doesn't take romantic rejection well.  You've never known someone who acts like that?  Takes things overly emotional and blows stuff out of proportion?

I can hand a saarabas over to the Qunari to be executed and get just as much rivalry as rebuffing Anders.

 

I can blackmail a man with information the mage daughter he tried to conceal and get less rivalry from Anders than rebuffing his advances

[Dean_the_Young]

I can hand a saarabas over to the Qunari to be executed and get just as much rivalry as rebuffing Anders.

 

I can blackmail a man with information the mage daughter he tried to conceal and get less rivalry from Anders than rebuffing his advances

 

Totally in character, Iakus.

[Ahglock]

It's an interesting issue. On the one hand, most players seem to want transparent dialogue mechanics. On the other, we often don't want NPC personalities themselves to be transparent. Though some of us do, which is why someone always puts an approval guide on the wiki almost immediately after release.

I think the point of showing the X points is a reflection on the current inability to accurately show the characters reaction in game. We aren't getting the body language and facial expressions for the player to read. So either the writing needs to be more transparent or you get rivalry points. Unless they are specifically going for a plot twist.

[AlanC9]

I never had any problem in figuring out how to romance/not romance a companion in previous games where there wasn't an approval system. I think that transparency is something that can also be unrelated to the approval system. In DA:O for example (where you had an approval system) your relationship with Alistair, being him your lover or just a friend, is totally affected by a single dialogue line which is not transparent at all (and that forced many players to choose a dialogue line which sounded totally out of character, especially if you were playing a gentle character).
 
TL;DR approval system doesn't mean automatically transparency

Agreed. We are talking about two largely separate systems here, although it's natural for the romance system to be gated by the approval system to some extent. Assuming an approval system is even present, that is.

[AlanC9]

I think the point of showing the X points is a reflection on the current inability to accurately show the characters reaction in game. We aren't getting the body language and facial expressions for the player to read. So either the writing needs to be more transparent or you get rivalry points. Unless they are specifically going for a plot twist.

And I suppose replacing the meter with digital acting, while technically possible, is too much of a zot sink to be feasible.

[Ahglock]

And I suppose replacing the meter with digital acting, while technically possible, is too much of a zot sink to be feasible.

They did it with LA noir but that was the point of the game so the zots paid off. For ME where the game is 80% shooting people probably not or at least not until the tech/costs drop through extensive use.

[Gothfather]

Yup, the female protag is in desperate need of an assertive male love interest. Someone who is confident and smooth. And while we're at it, someone who doesn't have a friggin' military background. I don't want another LI that's worried about rules and professionalism because of rank , it stops them making the first move! Give me a bounty hunter, a thief, a merc for hire just not another soldier.

Frankly they should divorce all Romances from being under your command. There are lots of ways to introduce a LI that isn't under the player command structure. Personally I don't think companions make good love interests, because anytime you have a romance with a companion their dialogue so often doesn't match their status except in "romance" locations. Make companions friendship based and add Romances for none crew. Kelly Chambers in ME3 is a good example of how you can do it. You meet someone outside the ship and you pursue a relationship (Yes I know Kelly Chambers was a shipmate in ME2.) We meet lots of people in a game. That we help that could become attracted to us that we could return to, to progress the relationship.

 

Many companies take a very negative view of a department head dating one of their employees. There are lots of laws designed to protect people from sexual exploitation in these situations BECAUSE it is so easy for a "Boss" to coerce sexual favours from an employee. Why does every Bioware game do this? Because it is easy and lazy writing.

 

We can have romance options from people we meet at the numerous bars, clubs, restaurants, arcades and casinos in the series. Shop Keepers, Doctors, scientist, NPCs we help in early quests, station security. Hell even military personnel NOT under your command. Like a liaison officer for your commander, that you flirt with while waiting for your appointment with your commanding officer. You could romance a politician, a colonist there is an entire community out there that isn't taking orders from you that are far better choices than, "Join my crew. We'll bang 'kay?"

[Gothfather]

But, again, the amount of rivalry points you gain for shooting him down is on par with other, far more extreme activities you do at other points in the game.  It's totally disproportionate to what is going on.  One might even say it's unrealistic, as it makes rejecting him look like a very Big Deal indeed.  Regardless of how easily one can balance the scales.

Get over it. The system pretty much gives almost all actions the same amount for any given action. Stop QQ its a smoke screen. All the system was designed to do was create metric that measured how often you went against a given companions wishes or how often they agreed. Most actions give the same amount with very little variance because it wasn't a system that measured the DEGREE at which you went against their wishes but it was more about the number of times you went against or along with their wishes. Which is why it takes numerous actions to be their friend or rival.

 

This argument is a smoke screen to attack the anders character because it made people uncomfortable. The amount of BS about that romance showed just how childish gamers are. I heard so much about how "aggressive" and terrible the romance arc was to a male Hawke that I played a male Hawke even though my preferred Hawke is sarcastic female. I play the game help out Anders and he hit on me I say no thanks in a nice way. He is UNDERSTANDABLY upset that his feelings are not returned. And then i kept waiting for this aggressive Anders to appear. He annoyed the crap out of me but it was never romantic in nature because after I say no thanks HE NEVER BOTHERS ME AGAIN ABOUT THE ROMANCE.

 

I play the entire game waiting for him to be this aggressive gay guy and he never materializes because he isn't what sexually insecure gamers painted him to be. He was a character who initialized a romance who is a perfect gentleman about it because when you say no regardless of your gender he never brings it up again. Sure he get hurt as ANYONE who has professed their interest in a person who did not reciprocate knows that it hurts. Anders reacts perfectly reasonably, in fact the irony is it is probably the only time Anders is reasonable in his reactions. but people are acting like his reactions are unreasonable. People Kill for being rejected, their positive feelings can turn into hatred over something like this and you can say "yeah but only the unstable," well Anders isn't exactly STABLE now is he?

 

GET. OVER. IT.

[daveliam]

I play the entire game waiting for him to be this aggressive gay guy and he never materializes because he isn't what sexually insecure gamers painted him to be.

 

While agree that people blow it out of proportion, I think you might be mistaken.  Most people don't claim that Anders was being aggressive.  They claim that Hawke was aggressive when he rejected him.  Basically, I see three groups of people who have issues with that romance:

 

Group A:  People who didn't have a problem with Anders flirting, but were unhappy about how Hawke seemed aggressive when shooting him down.

Group B:  People who didn't have a problem with Anders flirting, but were unhappy that they got rivalry points for rejecting him.

Group C:  People who had a problem with Anders flirting because it made them uncomfortable and they either own it as such or they try to blend into one of the above groups like we won't notice (but we usually do because their rhetoric gives them away quickly)

[AtreiyaN7]

Haven't we already established in many past threads that there are people who exist that would totally flip out if a same-gender companion suddenly hits on them? I was already annoyed enough by the "OMG, I'm a straight guy and Anders just effing hit on me - EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!" threads in the past. I wouldn't care if a same-gender companion hit on me, and so I have no problem with a companion trying to initiate a romance. However, I'm just so bloody sick of threads like the Anders threads I just mentioned.

[Iakus]

Haven't we already established in many past threads that there people who exist that would totally flip out if a same-gender companion suddenly hits on them? I was already annoyed enough by the "OMG, I'm a straight guy and Anders just effing hit on me - EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!" threads in the past. I wouldn't care if a same-gender companion hit on me, and so I have no problem with a companion trying to initiate a romance. However, I'm just so bloody sick of threads like the Anders threads I just mentioned.

Except Liara gets mentioned here a lot too.

 

ANd Miranda.

 

And Tali.

 

SO it's not just an Anders thing

[BioWareMod02]

Hello everyone. Please make sure to keep it civil in here. Thank you.

[Ahglock]

Haven't we already established in many past threads that there people who exist that would totally flip out if a same-gender companion suddenly hits on them? I was already annoyed enough by the "OMG, I'm a straight guy and Anders just effing hit on me - EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!" threads in the past. I wouldn't care if a same-gender companion hit on me, and so I have no problem with a companion trying to initiate a romance. However, I'm just so bloody sick of threads like the Anders threads I just mentioned.

NM.

[Gothfather]

While agree that people blow it out of proportion, I think you might be mistaken.  Most people don't claim that Anders was being aggressive.  They claim that Hawke was aggressive when he rejected him.  Basically, I see three groups of people who have issues with that romance:

 

Group A:  People who didn't have a problem with Anders flirting, but were unhappy about how Hawke seemed aggressive when shooting him down.

Group B:  People who didn't have a problem with Anders flirting, but were unhappy that they got rivalry points for rejecting him.

Group C:  People who had a problem with Anders flirting because it made them uncomfortable and they either own it as such or they try to blend into one of the above groups like we won't notice (but we usually do because their rhetoric gives them away quickly)

 

You don't have to be a jerk to reject Anders. You can tell him you are not interested in a "nice" way or a "mean" way you just can't do it in a way that doesn't hurt his feelings which is a completely different issue. Rejection hurts, Anders isn't the most stable of people either, so he has feelings for you you don't feel the same way and he's hurt. It is the most reasonable reaction Anders has in the game and it has people up in arms? I don't buy it. There is something else in play. I wonder what it is?

[AtreiyaN7]

Except Liara gets mentioned here a lot too.

 

ANd Miranda.

 

And Tali.

 

SO it's not just an Anders thing

 

Yeah, feel free to replace "Anders" with the name of any companion about which people complain after getting hit on by that companion. It's just that I find that Anders is just the most memorable one because of all the homophobic jerks who acted as if Anders were physically assaulting them or something just because he flirted with them, etc.

 

Frankly, I don't see why anyone would freak out over any companion being flirty with them in the first place. Hello, but I would take it as a compliment if a companion (don't care who or which gender) flirted with my character. If I'm not interested in the flirty companion, then I will just politely say that I'm not interested, and everything will be copacetic as far as I'm concerned. Maybe the companion will initially be upset over being rejected, but they'll get over it eventually (probably).

[Natureguy85]

I haven't seen anyone else mention it, but the worst part of the whole Anders hitting on me thing was that it happened right after he just killed his previous lover. That was creepy. But other companions in Bioware games show interest. Sure, it might be after one flirty line from the PC, but they hardly wait for the PC to show explicit interest. Ashley, Kaiden, and Liara have been mentioned several times, but there are others. Tali flirts with a male Shepard first and her interest is noted by Kelly when she arrives on the Normandy. I recall getting hit on by Zevran and Fenris (the latter only with Female Hawke) without flirting with them. And Leliana will get mad that you didn't express interest first. So I don't really know what the OP is talking about other than wanting to whine about other people.

 

Several people have claimed that rivalry points make sense because of hurt feelings. First, we have to remember that while Rivalry is often gained when a companion doesn't approve of an action, the scale really isn't the same as disapproval from Origins. Fully rivaled companions will still be pretty solidly in Hawke's corner, will they not? Second, if it is disapproval, having hurt feelings doesn't often change your opinion of the person in whom you were interested, does it?

 

 

I have never found myself accidentally in a romance. ever. it is not that hard to avoid them. at all.

 

Sure, if you meta-game. But I got in a relationship with Ashley just by being nice in ME1. I don't just meant that she was interested, as you mention in a later post. The game put me in a relationship.

 

 

What I'd like to see is a companion actually rejecting the PC during or right after attempting to flirt or 'making advances'.

 

I can imagine something along the lines of (and it's just one example):

 

Male Andromeda Protagonist: " You know... you look great in this attire. * smiles subtly * " I particularly liked how you dispatched that alien trying to grab you by the legs. You're quite... effective... * winks * "

Female Companion: " * hesitantly replies with a nervous voice tone * Oh, thanks, hehe. * breaks eye contact and nervously looks around the cabin * "

Male AP: " * approaches her slowly * The way you took care of that alien on our last mission wa- "

Female Companion: " * gently stops him from getting closer with both hands on his chest * Look, you're a good guy but I'm already engaged. "

Male AP: " * adopts a surprised expression and comments * You are? It's... someone in the station? "

Female Companion: " Wi- with due respect, sir... I don't believe that it is of you business. Sorry, but I am rather incomfortable right now. * starts to walk away *

Male AP: " * comments as she walks away * I didn't want to intrude in your personal life, but I read everyone's dossier. And yours made me believe that you were single. There's no mention of a partner that would have been part of the crew in this expedition that I would have had to be aware of, and respect. I'm in the unknown here.

Female Companion: " * stops and turns to face and look at him, takes a slower and deeper breath before replying * I chose not to mention it, sir. "

Male AP: " So... you lied. * followed by a moment of silence as both stare in each other's eyes *

Female Companion: " Writing 'confidential' would have sufficed? "

Male AP: " * hesitantly nods slowly * I would say yes, and definitely better than just leave a blank spac- "

Female Companion: " I'm lesbian, need more details? Just don't go around revealing it to the entire crew... sir. "

Male AP: " * jaw slightly drops, speechless, eyes wide opened * Oh... I, well I didn't know that, either. "

Female Companion: " * rolls eyes * Tsk... well now you do, and it's personal. "

 

Actual player who wanted to bang the chick: " WTF BioWare! WTF!!! "

BioWare: " I made that character, I decide, go cry me a river * /ends internal thinking * " Here at BioWare we believe that artistic integrity is of utmost importance. "

 

* Manly tears *

 

 

See, I would actually consider this good because you have a developed character and it makes for an interesting and awkward scenario. It might bother me in the moment as I R/P but not once I sat back and analyzed it from a writing perspective.

 

However, you should never use the phrases "Bioware" and "artistic integrity" together after the crap that was the ME3 ending and the surrounding response.

 

 

^I think you're totally right on that point. But I think this brings up two things that need to happen:

 

1) Rebalancing of how approval/disapproval works. In most cases, I think characters will hate you more for committing atrocities than rebuffing their romance.

 

2) I'd actually say we shouldn't even see the approval/disapproval ratings, which tend to tempt the player to game the system to get the highest levels possible, instead of playing our characters. For me, seeing +/- all the time just ends up being a distraction. 

 

Edit: Unless you're suggesting to drop the system altogether, in which case, nothing I wrote here really applies.

 

A hidden system would be very interesting, but I'm sure many would whine.

[daveliam]

Except Liara gets mentioned here a lot too.

 

ANd Miranda.

 

And Tali.

 

SO it's not just an Anders thing

 

It's mostly an Anders thing, though.  You have to admit that Anders is brought up waaaaaay more than any of the other three.  In fact, I honestly don't remember seeing anyone complain about Tali hitting on you (I'm sure it's happened, but it's happened so infrequently that I must have missed it).    With Miranda, it's more about the butt cam than her flirting.  Liara gets mentioned more about the ninjamancing, but I do agree that she (and especially Shi'ara who doesn't know how to respect my Shep's personal space) do get mentioned in this context sometimes.

 

But Anders gets the lion's share of the mentions when it comes to LI initiated flirting.  And the devs have specifically mentioned him in reference to why they aren't going to take that approach.

 

You don't have to be a jerk to reject Anders. You can tell him you are not interested in a "nice" way or a "mean" way you just can't do it in a way that doesn't hurt his feelings which is a completely different issue. Rejection hurts, Anders isn't the most stable of people either, so he has feelings for you you don't feel the same way and he's hurt. It is the most reasonable reaction Anders has in the game and it has people up in arms? I don't buy it. There is something else in play. I wonder what it is?

 

Yeah, I totally agree with you.  In fact, if you click the first heart icon and then reject him, you can effectively get out of romancing him without taking any rivalry points at all.  But people love to exaggerate and clutch their pearls in offense sometimes. 

[Il Divo]

It's an interesting issue. On the one hand, most players seem to want transparent dialogue mechanics. On the other, we often don't want NPC personalities themselves to be transparent. Though some of us do, which is why someone always puts an approval guide on the wiki almost immediately after release.

 

I'm almost tempted to make a thread asking for a toggle...just kidding.

​

But speaking for myself, one of my desired goals in role-playing is maximum control over my character, minimal control over other characters (that included inventory management). I tend to find the approval/disapproval icons distracting from that. I'll stick with my decision anyway, but I think it's frustrating when the game goes out of its way to remind that "hey, I just pissed off Anders".

[Il Divo]

I don't know it kind of feels creepy stalker level to get negative feelings for being turned down. I don't go into what a ****** mode unless the turning down was unnecessarily rude. Disappointed, sad, sure but my opinion of the person didn't change as long as they used some tact.

 

At the end of the day, everyone is different. I don't think everyone would have a uniform reaction to my rejection any more than I expect universe responses from my decision-making. Likewise I don't expect everyone to hate me for the rest of the game, even with a slight disposition hit. A few people have brought up the Anders example and I think that works pretty well in this context. ​

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, I totally agree with you.  In fact, if you click the first heart icon and then reject him, you can effectively get out of romancing him without taking any rivalry points at all.  But people love to exaggerate and clutch their pearls in offense sometimes. 

 

Wait, so you should lead him on, then slam the door to avoid rivalry points? That seems odd. That's meta-gaming though.