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[TheLeakestWink]

A concept or topic that I have not seen mentioned or developed much with theory here on the DAMP forum is the concept of Build Progression. By Build Progression, I mean attention to character build as you progress through levels without simply aiming for a final build from the start.

 

This concept necessitates respecialization during one's build at least one time, sometimes more. This is therefore potentially not a viable approach for new players, who have yet to accumulate significant amounts of crafting materials for respec'ing. However, many players have huge amounts of crafting materials (Paragon's Luster, anyone?) that go otherwise unused, particularly once all armors have been unlocked and Dragon challenges at a certain difficulty (Perilous, NM) are either too difficult for the player, already completed, or uncommon (such that crafting Dragon Calls is not soaking up a lot of materials).

 

Respecialization can revolutionize a character's effectiveness and the enjoyment of playing that character, in my opinion. I'll give a couple examples.

 

1. The Avvar: The Avvar is a Damage Specialist who relies on AOE elemental damage and rapid (or at least consistent) killing to counterbalance the high amount of aggro he tends to generate (at least in my experience). However, he suffers from a Catch-22: until he is high-level (16+), he generates a lot of aggro, but doesn't yet have the skills + passives to survive that aggro by killing enemies. This makes leveling the Avvar quite frustrating (and potentially more time-consuming than other characters due to the higher chance of an operation failure as a result of dying repeatedly, fading, and therefore making the enemies harder for your allies to defeat).

 

Respecialization solves this problem! The Avvar has a highly-underutilized Ability and a Passive to boot: Yes, I'm referring to Rage of the Avvar and the nearby passive Chilled Defense. These are available to the Avvar as early as level 6, increasing his survivability several-fold, particularly once RotA is upgraded, giving the Avvar another means of generating guard, which is typically only possible with Hakkon's Charge. The wonderful thing about Chilled Defense (in comparison to its sister passive, Ice Armor), is that enemies don't have to be Frozen, simply Chilled in order to gain the damage resistance. In combination with the upgrades to Hakkon's Charge (reduced cooldown time and stamina cost, allowing you to chill enemies more frequently) and Korth's Might, which grants an additional damage resistance when using Ice Smash, the Avvar quickly becomes able to survive significant aggro.

 

Takeaway: if you're having trouble surviving with the Avvar at low/mid levels, consider putting your first points into the Mountain-Heart tree, thus greatly improving your survivability. Use that to gain more levels, then respecialize at level 15/16 into the Hakkon-blessed reaper of souls you were always meant to be.

 

2. The Assassin: The case for this approach with the Assassin is not quite as strong as for the Avvar IMO, but what is the major complaint with playing the Assassin? Thanks for asking, it's that playing the Assassin at low/mid levels is rather boring. Since the cornerstone of (most) Assassin builds is I Was Never There, I generally go straight for it: after all, since I have Twin Fangs to begin with, why not just get IWNT ASAP and rely on the Stealth > Twin Fangs > kill > Stealth cycle for a few games until I have enough points to get some more good abilities? Because that's monotonous and, yes, boring.

 

Respecialization solves this problem! Hidden Blades, Shadow Strike, and Hook & Tackle all are available super early. Yes, that's right, I'm advocating an in-your-face Assassin at low/mid levels.  "But Wink, you just recommended building a character for survivability early in order to increase the chances of operation completions and faster leveling, and the Assassin can barely take a joke if she's not in Stealth" you're saying. That's because this approach is for people who find the Assassin boring at low levels, rather than too squishy. This approach to the Assassin is certainly lively!

 

Takeaway: if you find the Assassin boring to level, consider putting your early points into HB/SS/H&T for exciting (if slightly suicidal...) gameplay. Once you have the levels for your perfect Death From the Shadows  build, respecialize and have an enjoyable play-through your Assassin promotion without the drudgery of the early levels.

 

 

While I have examples of this approach for almost all characters, I think the idea is fairly easy to grasp (and this post is already quite long ). I'd like to hear if others take this approach, or have other ways of building characters early with Respecialization in mind later on.

[Drasca]

I respec all the time, and between different builds. My builds list different progressions at different levels as well, and the intermediary builds play differently.

http://forum.bioware...rite-mp-builds/

 

I don't list everything I do, because that's just too much work, but I mention to use my builds as a baseline in the foreword / introduction

[Yallegro]

I like the idea, but they're not going to patch anything.

[ReadingRambo220]

I like the idea, but they're not going to patch anything.

???? Patch what?

I find the idea interesting, but I don't find it sustainable. Beginning players are better served saving their materials for armor etc, and simply promoting.

By the time players have enough materials to burn on respecs, they generally have enough promotions and gear to withstand agro with less survivable skills, making respeccing unnecessary.

In addition, players can even venture into higher difficulties at level one at that point, bypassing the early level drudgery.

Respecs should have cost gold instead of materials IMO.

[TheLeakestWink]

I like the idea, but they're not going to patch anything.

 

Either you misread my post, or you are unaware that respecialization has always been possible...

[TheLeakestWink]

I find the idea interesting, but I don't find it sustainable. Beginning players are better served saving their materials for armor etc, and simply promoting.

By the time players have enough materials to burn on respecs, they generally have enough promotions and gear to withstand agro with less survivable skills, making respeccing unnecessary.

In addition, players can even venture into higher difficulties at level one at that point, bypassing the early level drudgery.

Respecs should have cost gold instead of materials IMO.

 

Interesting idea about gold.

 

This isn't about necessity, but about possibility. Of course it's not necessary to respec, but it does make some characters much more fun (and in some cases, much more effective) at lower levels than they otherwise would be.

[Drasca]

Either you misread my post, or you are unaware that respecialization has always been possible...

 

He's pretty dense. Don't worry about it.

 

 

This isn't about necessity, but about possibility. Of course it's not necessary to respec, but it does make some characters much more fun (and in some cases, much more effective) at lower levels than they otherwise would be.

 

Of course it is. I have different build specs at different levels just for this very reason.

 

Avvar in particular is better served by getting upgraded lady's wrath + stormbringer immediately with some heal on kill, for the self revive potential. It is way better than trying to rely on CD. Takes fewer points and is much more reliable for survival.

 

The cornerstone of my assassin builds isn't IWNH, but upgraded TF and Cull the Heard. The rest is skill. Sneak attack is nice. Fallback plan is nice, but mostly it is positioning, situational awareness and the ability to one shot enemies between TF + CtH.

[Campout King]

Good post

[TheLeakestWink]

Of course it is. I have different build specs at different levels just for this very reason.

 

Avvar in particular is better served by getting upgraded lady's wrath + stormbringer immediately with some heal on kill, for the self revive potential. It is way better than trying to rely on CD. Takes fewer points and is much more reliable for survival.

 

The cornerstone of my assassin builds isn't IWNH, but upgraded TF and Cull the Heard. The rest is skill. Sneak attack is nice. Fallback plan is nice, but mostly it is positioning, situational awareness and the ability to one shot enemies between TF + CtH.

 

Glad to see someone else takes this approach.

 

Interesting ideas re Avvar and Assassin. I'd argue that for players who have trouble surviving with the Avvar, LW is unlikely to be able to offset the increased aggro it generates, doubly so for Stormbringer, which can aggro the entire next mob of enemies to the Avvar (a mob that would otherwise stay inactive until LoS were broken). However, I'll certainly give it a try. I think you're underestimating Chilled Defense, though.

 

Cull the Herd is great, but I wonder how you manage to isolate enemies consistently without Stealth always available (IWNT).

[Drasca]

Glad to see someone else takes this approach.

 

Interesting ideas re Avvar and Assassin. I'd argue that for players who have trouble surviving with the Avvar, LW is unlikely to be able to offset the increased aggro it generates, doubly so for Stormbringer, which can aggro the entire next mob of enemies to the Avvar (a mob that would otherwise stay inactive until LoS were broken). However, I'll certainly give it a try. I think you're underestimating Chilled Defense, though.

 

Cull the Herd is great, but I wonder how you manage to isolate enemies consistently without Stealth always available (IWNT).

 

It won't matter how much you aggro, in fact the more aggro the better, with LW around, because of the self-revive potential.

 

CTH 's radius is so generous you have to assume it works 100% of the time unless the other enemy is directly inside the other (at which point you'd be hitting two enemies at once).

 

If you absolutely need a video of me doing low level assassin and demonstrating 'how its done' I will-- Assassin's fun.

 

Aggro management, as mentioned before.

 

 

but mostly it is positioning, situational awareness and the ability to one shot enemies between TF + CtH.

 

The assassin's quotes directly apply to her abilities:

 

"Patience and skill win every battle"

--choosing targets, positioning correctly, timing attacks to be most opportune aligned with enemy animations (waiting for long animations to start before attacking, to guarantee enemy positioning)

 

"My dagger was quicker than theirs"

--see above. you basic attack faster than they can react due to the animations they have to finish.

 

Too bad there isn't a full youtube list somewhere, otherwise I'd link that.

[Gya]

It won't matter how much you aggro, in fact the more aggro the better, with LW around, because of the self-revive potential.

CTH 's radius is so generous you have to assume it works 100% of the time unless the other enemy is directly inside the other (at which point you'd be hitting two enemies at once).

If you absolutely need a video of me doing low level assassin and demonstrating 'how its done' I will-- Assassin's fun.

Aggro management, as mentioned before.


The assassin's quotes directly apply to her abilities:

"Patience and skill win every battle"
--choosing targets, positioning correctly, timing attacks to be most opportune aligned with enemy animations (waiting for long animations to start before attacking, to guarantee enemy positioning)

"My dagger was quicker than theirs"
--see above. you basic attack faster than they can react due to the animations they have to finish.

Too bad there isn't a full youtube list somewhere, otherwise I'd link that.

It's a shame the archer never says "There are so many people in the world. I'm not used to the lack of a wall to spam leaping shot against the boss".

[ReadingRambo220]

It's a shame the archer never says "There are so many people in the world. I'm not used to the lack of a wall to spam leaping shot against the boss".

"There are so many people in the world. I'm going to spec opportunity knocks, so that everytime they crit ill spam abilities."

[Drasca]

It's a shame the archer never says "There are so many people in the world. I'm not used to the lack of a wall to spam leaping shot against the boss".

 

That's right! I did that!~

[kaileena_sands]

Yeah, I do respecialization quite often, most notably with Saara. I've plenty of materials anyway so that isn't a worry. Sometimes I'll do this between Peri and NM - if I know I'll be playing NM I respec the char a bit more for defense while strutting before through Peri with more glass canon builds.

[SpaceV3gan]

I can't remember the last time I used the re-spec feature and, if I had a good memory, I probably would be able to count in one hand how many times I have used it in total.

Personally, after having played so long I got used to the idea of having a build that will work fine for me by levels 9-10 (1 Peri game) or 12-13 (1 NM game). High stats and gear obviously help me make the most of 'unrefined' builds.


While I totally agree that re-spec is a nice feature, it would have been much better if it had been released earlier on when people were struggling to come up with solid and efficient builds and were often forced to play until promotion to fix build screw ups. Nevertheless, I have to say that this is one aspect that DAMP ultimately got right when compared to ME3MP, where re-spec depends on RNG.

[Zorinho20_CRO]

-snip-
While I totally agree that re-spec is a nice feature, it would have been much better if it had been released earlier on when people were struggling to come up with solid and efficient builds and were often forced to play until promotion to fix build screw ups. Nevertheless, I have to say that this is one aspect that DAMP ultimately got right when compared to ME3MP, where re-spec depends on RNG.

We had to wait pretty long time to get re-spec option in DAMP and other thing is that re-spec cards are not that rare in ME3.

Just my 2 (euro) cents

[Parachromis]

For someone newer to the game, I would not recommend this. Drasca can, as he has the promotes to make such a concept be very worthwhile and highly useful at lower levels. Here's my take, and we'll talk about the Avvar:

 

Let's consider you want to play in perilous--good loot, good exp, immunities aren't much of a problem, and a decent challenge. For a new-ish player, the Avvar can be a challenge to keep alive if you don't have the promotes, weapons, and the best armor. So how do you do it without having to respec? Knowing who to go after and when. LW is critically important imo for finishing enemies after say, using CL if you can't kill them outright. Use HC every chance you get to build guard. If it's on cooldown, why not wait a couple seconds before you rush into the next battle? Being an efficient player is key, as well as choosing the right targets. 

 

I use LW, HC first and foremost, then KM. If, and only if, there is a group of enemies (or a shield guy), I follow up with CL and maybe another KM. At this point, everything is on cooldown. It's best to wait a couple seconds, unless you can play whack-a-mole with your standard attack, before your next big attack sequence. Wait behind a wall or something so the archers don't pick you off and the enemy spends more time running to you. Hopefully your team mates are doing their job and killing as well. Then begin your next attack sequence. 

 

At my promotion level, which is decent, I find the Avvar not especially good at taking down major single targets alone (and I still don't have the Hakkon 2H sword...grrr). He's much better at CC. I would not suggest taking on a boss alone, as you can't generate any HOK and very little guard. You will die quickly, But that doesn't mean you're useless! Those pesky archers need killing, so why have your more-effective-at-boss-killing team mates spend their time on them? I prefer to take out a few, build guard, then take a quick plunge into the boss, retreat, take out a few more mooks, generate more guard and health, then plunge in again. If you've noticed, your team generally gets swarmed or ranged enemies tend to bunch up while they're focusing on the boss. This is a very opportune time for the Avvar. I can't tell you how many times I've thought "someone get those g-damned archers" while playing a character that can take on a boss.

 

*****

 

I do like the idea for the assassin, but if you have good armor and daggers, you can just get all stabby on your foes at lvl 1 in threatning without much consequence. After 1 match, you'll be at lvl 7, possibly 8, and FC will get you to 8, possibly 9. A second round will get you 3 more levels if you win, then you can start having some fun. Lvl 1 for most characters just sucks regardless.

 

You shouldn't forget that you can choose a lower difficulty level until you've gained enough skills to be viable on the next difficulty level. This can be an effective way to efficiently level your characters. Pick a lvl 1, play 3 rounds, then choose another lvl 1. Of course, having a group to carry your lvl 1 at a higher lvl would be ideal. 

[Drasca]

For someone newer to the game, I would not recommend this. Drasca can, as he has the promotes to make such a concept be very worthwhile and highly useful at lower levels. Here's my take, and we'll talk about the Avvar:

 

I've done this at low promotes too on the Avvar through Beta's low (and at starting out at the time no promote) account.

 

All the things you've said are good advice, but there's nothing I have said that doesn't apply to low promote accounts too.

 

 

I find the Avvar not especially good at taking down major single targets alone

 

Don't fight single targets. Kite and use Line of Sight to hit as many as you can at once.

 

 

I do like the idea for the assassin, but if you have good armor and daggers

 

If you practice, you can do this with shitty promotes and bad daggers in Perilous too, if you practice. I have crazy promotes too, but the majority of my assassin completions were done with Blue level 20 daggers, pre dragonslayer armor (i.e..paper thin), and low promotes, worse than yours.

 

 

as mentioned before.

 

The assassin's quotes directly apply to her abilities:

 

"Patience and skill win every battle"

--choosing targets, positioning correctly, timing attacks to be most opportune aligned with enemy animations (waiting for long animations to start before attacking, to guarantee enemy positioning)

 

"My dagger was quicker than theirs"

--see above. you basic attack faster than they can react due to the animations they have to finish.

[Parachromis]

The assassin's quotes directly apply to her abilities:

 

"Patience and skill win every battle"

--choosing targets, positioning correctly, timing attacks to be most opportune aligned with enemy animations (waiting for long animations to start before attacking, to guarantee enemy positioning)

 

"My dagger was quicker than theirs"

--see above. you basic attack faster than they can react due to the animations they have to finish.

 

I like this. Agree 100%.

[lcneed]

Okay I think I am missing something.  Strombringer.   I had been skipping it on all my agents who has this ability because it seems pretty weak.  300% damage to a random target close by every 15 seconds.   So what am I missing and how hard should I hit myself in the head for never having it?

[Beerfish]

Okay I think I am missing something.  Strombringer.   I had been skipping it on all my agents who has this ability because it seems pretty weak.  300% damage to a random target close by every 15 seconds.   So what am I missing and how hard should I hit myself in the head for never having it?

I will sometimes spec into it with my last point or so if i have nothing else to put points in.  I am like you however in that I have no clue as to how good if at all it is.

[lcneed]

I will sometimes spec into it with my last point or so if i have nothing else to put points in.  I am like you however in that I have no clue as to how good if at all it is.

 

I do that too mostly on my keeper or saarebas.  But I guess the main reason to get it is for self revive?   I am guessing it works even if you are dead?  But 300% damage probably not going to kill anything?

[Snakebite]

Okay I think I am missing something.  Strombringer.   I had been skipping it on all my agents who has this ability because it seems pretty weak.  300% damage to a random target close by every 15 seconds.   So what am I missing and how hard should I hit myself in the head for never having it?

 

I only use it on the Avvar, because 300% damage is pretty weak on a class using a staff.  Mine usually hits for around 6k.  That's not always enough to kill something, but it is nice.  I run out of things to spend points on around level 12, so I just pick up Stormbringer.

[Drasca]

I do that too mostly on my keeper or saarebas.  But I guess the main reason to get it is for self revive?   I am guessing it works even if you are dead?  But 300% damage probably not going to kill anything?

 

It will with all the AoE Debuffs / DoT you have going on from CL and LW. Yes it can trigger as you're dying and self revive you. Yes, as SB pointed out, it can do disgusting damage, and you'll be able to get it fairly early when you're skipping chilled defense all together.

[JohnnyQPublic]

I run out of things to spend points on around level 12, so I just pick up Stormbringer.

 

I assume you're not getting Chilled Defense then.  The tooltip says that Chilled Defense provides damage resistance, so wouldn't it still provide a benefit even after all your stats hit 170?  Maybe you just don't feel like you need it.