Aller au contenu

Photo

Build Progression, or the Value of Respecialization


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
84 réponses à ce sujet

#51
TheLeakestWink

TheLeakestWink
  • Members
  • 234 messages

Regardless, I side with the LW crowd. It's essential. It makes a huge difference in damage output.

 

Of course it does. That's not in question. The key question is whether the offensive power of Lady's Wrath offsets the poor defenses of the Avvar at low levels. What Drasca is suggesting is that a level 7 Avvar with Lady's Wrath and Stormbringer has a better chance of survival than a level 7 Avvar with Bear Mauls the Wolves, Chilled Defense, and upgraded Rage of the Avvar, stats being equal. Based on what you said about your experience with the Avvar, I think you would have benefited from an approach such as the one I suggested earlier in your career, so to speak. The Avvar is a fantastic damage dealer, but I suspect you don't see him played very often (he's probably the least frequent character I see in PUGs) because he's hard to keep alive.



#52
Parachromis

Parachromis
  • Members
  • 121 messages

Of course it does. That's not in question. The key question is whether the offensive power of Lady's Wrath offsets the poor defenses of the Avvar at low levels. What Drasca is suggesting is that a level 7 Avvar with Lady's Wrath and Stormbringer has a better chance of survival than a level 7 Avvar with Bear Mauls the Wolves, Chilled Defense, and upgraded Rage of the Avvar, stats being equal. Based on what you said about your experience with the Avvar, I think you would have benefited from an approach such as the one I suggested earlier in your career, so to speak. The Avvar is a fantastic damage dealer, but I suspect you don't see him played very often (he's probably the least frequent character I see in PUGs) because he's hard to keep alive.

 

I almost went into detail on this very point. I think it can work both ways. On one hand, you can deal more damage and kill the enemies outright, thus reducing damage taken. On the other, you protect yourself and take a more conservative, defensive, approach. I think it could work both ways depending on how you like to play, or who you're playing with. As a pugger, I think the more aggressive approach works better due to the fact that I can't always rely upon others to kill the enemies while I'm taking a breather. If I am running headfirst into a group of enemies, they better wind up dead. If not, I will be the one dead. Having an exit strategy and recognizing when it may be necessary works well, mainly timing the cooldowns so you can get out of a sticky situation. This is primarily why I recommend taking cover every so often. On the other hand, it's important that you stay as active as possible to build guard and restore health. The Avvar is a DPS character. Trying to play him defensively may not be to the best effect. Unless you're heavily promoted, you live on a prayer sometimes and as long as you know when enough's enough, you'll live through it.

 

Surprisingly, I've noticed an uptick in Avvar use. I tend to see them with higher end weapons, as opposed to lvl 20 blues I often see with the Reaver.


  • Beerfish et Snakebite aiment ceci

#53
Drasca

Drasca
  • Members
  • 2 574 messages

Twith a lvl 24 Dragon Maul--which is turning point for me in my gameplay.

Definitely L2P.

 

Regardless, I side with the LW crowd. It's essential. It makes a huge difference in damage output. The only time I respec a char is if I'm trying something new and just don't like it. So for the Avvar: Crushing Leap + upgrade, LW + upgrade, defense on right tree (to BMTW), then fill in the upgrades for HC & KM and passives. Works pretty well for me.

 

The maul is the turning point. Easy to get and essential for Avvar until hakkon's. Weakest doesn't understand how KM's buff works, heal on kill works, etc. Looks like you don't know how to rotate KM's elemental buffs either since you go for the right side.

 

Yes, you have quite a bit of L2P ahead of you. Avvar was already forewarned as an 'advanced' class.

 

By the time a player Rage and tries to chill the enemy on the defense tree (assuming there are even 5 enemies within 5m), the enemy is already dead with LW/CL/KM combo with a Dragon Maul and the player is ready to kill the next group.

 

PS: Tamar, Reaver, is a she.



#54
Parachromis

Parachromis
  • Members
  • 121 messages

The maul is the turning point. Easy to get and essential for Avvar until hakkon's. Weakest doesn't understand how KM's buff works, heal on kill works, etc. Looks like you don't know how to rotate KM's elemental buffs either since you go for the right side.

 

Yes, you have quite a bit of L2P ahead of you. Avvar was already forewarned as an 'advanced' class.

 

By the time a player Rage and tries to chill the enemy on the defense tree (assuming there are even 5 enemies within 5m), the enemy is already dead with LW/CL/KM combo with a Dragon Maul and the player is ready to kill the next group.

 

PS: Tamar, Reaver, is a she.

 

What? You totally took out of context what I was saying. L2R. Re-read. I don't even use the Dragon Maul on the Avvar. And I know what sex they both are.



#55
Snakebite

Snakebite
  • Members
  • 783 messages

The Avvar is a DPS character. Trying to play him defensively may not be to the best effect. Unless you're heavily promoted, you live on a prayer sometimes and as long as you know when enough's enough, you'll live through it.

 

They way I see it, playing defensively on the Avvar means hiding behind cover as you Nuke/Microwave everything on the other side of it, in which case he plays defensively very, very well.  Not many characters can do such good DPS while being completely out of line-of-sight.


  • Beerfish aime ceci

#56
nanotm

nanotm
  • Members
  • 967 messages

the sara is another paper armour type that does really excellent through cover damage XD

 

@wave having reread it I cant see why it makes no sense, the problems is buggy code, the cause adding new stuff without planning from the start, the solution, in future build in hidden blank things so you have the ability to skin them at a later date and modify them without creating mismatches in game code.......

 

a secondary and perhaps more useful solution would be to actually use cloud service to host the games on and forget the region lock thing and let everyone connect to their local server and still get the same service every other country does ~(rather like how me3 worked)



#57
Yallegro

Yallegro
  • Members
  • 617 messages

Give the player as much what as possible in the early levels? Offense or defense? My Avvar suggestion was not meant to be The One True Way to build the Avvar. Rather it was meant to illustrate the potential of respecialization to allow a character to be viable throughout his level progression for players who find him otherwise difficult to play at early levels. That key context seems to be overlooked by several responders in this thread (one of whose name starts with D and ends with rasca).
 
The reason respecialization becomes useful later on is that the number of points invested to get Rage of the Avvar and Chilled Defense prohibit also getting the best offensive skills (Lady's Wrath and Crushing Leap) along with the good passives necessary to support those skills.
 
If you can count to 20, you should never find yourself short a point after respecialization.


Best average of both

Personally starting with Rage of the Avvar feels strange to me, as if you are speccing to latch onto a high difficulty match with too low a lvl rather than speccing for an enjoyable run on a difficulty you can actually handle
  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#58
Zorinho20_CRO

Zorinho20_CRO
  • Members
  • 3 252 messages

Avvar seems very popular here.

I completed 12 operations with that kit.



#59
TheLeakestWink

TheLeakestWink
  • Members
  • 234 messages

Personally starting with Rage of the Avvar feels strange to me, as if you are speccing to latch onto a high difficulty match with too low a lvl rather than speccing for an enjoyable run on a difficulty you can actually handle

 

I emphasized part of your quote because that's key context to this argument. Most efficient leveling means playing at the appropriate difficulty level for your stats. While this often means increasing difficulty level as you progress through levels with a given character, there are transition times (stats-wise) during which it's essentially a waste of time to play Routine, Threatening, or Perilous even at level 1. The goal for me at my current stats is to play Perilous from level 1 until 14/15, then Nightmare with most characters. There are players doing the same progression from Routine to Threatening as they level, and others playing threatening to perilous as they level. The leaderboarders are playing Nightmare straight through. The point is that you should be pushing for the highest difficulty level you can handle in order to maximize time-benefit. For me, that means if I want to play the Avvar from level 1 on Perilous, I play conservatively at level 1, then get RotA/CD in order to be more aggressive at mid-levels, then once I hit 16, respec into the elemental damage build and step it up to Nightmare. Do I sometimes want an easy path at level 1-8? Sure, in which case I'll play threatening and go the Lady's Wrath route. I could be half-asleep and still win. So I don't see my approach as building for too high a level, rather building for the appropriate level, since playing Threatening is a waste of time.

 

I mention all this because I think you've hit onto the reason Drasca is so convinced his way is better: he's playing below his stats. After all, his benchmark is Perilous despite being high on the PC leaderboard.



#60
Yallegro

Yallegro
  • Members
  • 617 messages

I emphasized part of your quote because that's key context to this argument. Most efficient leveling means playing at the appropriate difficulty level for your stats. While this often means increasing difficulty level as you progress through levels with a given character, there are transition times (stats-wise) during which it's essentially a waste of time to play Routine, Threatening, or Perilous even at level 1. The goal for me at my current stats is to play Perilous from level 1 until 14/15, then Nightmare with most characters. There are players doing the same progression from Routine to Threatening as they level, and others playing threatening to perilous as they level. The leaderboarders are playing Nightmare straight through. The point is that you should be pushing for the highest difficulty level you can handle in order to maximize time-benefit. For me, that means if I want to play the Avvar from level 1 on Perilous, I play conservatively at level 1, then get RotA/CD in order to be more aggressive at mid-levels, then once I hit 16, respec into the elemental damage build and step it up to Nightmare. Do I sometimes want an easy path at level 1-8? Sure, in which case I'll play threatening and go the Lady's Wrath route. I could be half-asleep and still win. So I don't see my approach as building for too high a level, rather building for the appropriate level, since playing Threatening is a waste of time.

 

I mention all this because I think you've hit onto the reason Drasca is so convinced his way is better: he's playing below his stats. After all, his benchmark is Perilous despite being high on the PC leaderboard.

 

I see what you mean.

 

I'm also the challenge seeking type and ran my lvl 1s (and other) through a "higher than recommended" difficulty as soon as I could.

 

Drasca's the farmer type. All in on brawn and xp maxing while his skills and tactical insight remained limited to say the least.


  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#61
LearnedHand

LearnedHand
  • Members
  • 371 messages

There is nothing inherently wrong with MotD, but Mauls, in comparison to Greatswords and Greataxes, suffer from a] difficult targeting and b] single target damage (unless tightly clustered) as an offset for their higher base damage, weapon level being equal. These downsides are reasons to favor Greatswords/Greataxes for the Katari and the Avvar. The reverse is true of the Reaver because of Dragon Rage, which changes the attack animation, thus eliminating both problems I listed. The MotD becomes the better choice in that single case because of its higher base damage (again, level being equal).

You seem like a newer player interested in the game, but you also have some flawed and recalcitrant positions throughout this thread, like this one.

 

Unless you are a level one on a class, your offense and sometimes defense is based primarily on abilities in turn based on your base weapon damage. Some would argue it is never smart to use a faster weapon with a lower base damage. For auto-attacks you can attack-cancel to diminish innate attack speed and for abilities, the innate attack speed of weapon types is completely irrelevant. Base weapon damage is king (unless offset by things like crit damage on weapon or masterwork procs). You are gimping your offensive potential on the 2hd warriors if you simply rely on the auto-attack differences between the weapons.

 

As for your original post on respecs, many players use them. When nightmare difficulty first became I available, I would respec more defensively as well while starting a character off with a more offensive build in lower difficulties. Once you reach a certain comfort level, whether through experience, skill, promotions, etc many longtime players are lazy and no longer feel the need to bother respec-ing.


  • Drasca aime ceci

#62
TheLeakestWink

TheLeakestWink
  • Members
  • 234 messages

You seem like a newer player interested in the game, but you also have some flawed and recalcitrant positions throughout this thread, like this one.

 

You seem like a person who makes snap judgments and then attributes flawed opinions to people based on that judgment, like you did in this post. You also seem like you don't quite know the meaning of recalcitrant. What is your threshold for progressing from "newer player?" If it's 2000 hours, sure, I'm a newer player.

 

Unless you are a level one on a class, your offense and sometimes defense is based primarily on abilities in turn based on your base weapon damage. Some would argue it is never smart to use a faster weapon with a lower base damage. For auto-attacks you can attack-cancel to diminish innate attack speed and for abilities, the innate attack speed of weapon types is completely irrelevant. Base weapon damage is king (unless offset by things like crit damage on weapon or masterwork procs). You are gimping your offensive potential on the 2hd warriors if you simply rely on the auto-attack differences between the weapons.

 

I am well aware of everything you said. Read what I wrote again and consider if anything I said conflicts with what you said. I mentioned nothing about ability damage. I attack-cancel will all weapons and classes. Mauls, regardless of attack-canceling, hit only one target, and suffer from difficult targeting relative to Greatswords/axes. That cannot be changed. Base weapon damage is often offset by other weapon characteristics, which do not always include masterwork characteristics. Would you recommend the Maul of the Dragon over the Sulevin Blade for the Avvar and Reaver? Greatsword of the Dragon? Skywatcher's Cleaver? Edgewise? Swift Greataxe? Those are the two-handed weapons within one level or less of the MotD, which is why I said level being equal, mauls are generally inferior for the Avvar and Katari.

 

As for your original post on respecs, many players use them. When nightmare difficulty first became I available, I would respec more defensively as well while starting a character off with a more offensive build in lower difficulties. Once you reach a certain comfort level, whether through experience, skill, promotions, etc many longtime players are lazy and no longer feel the need to bother respec-ing.

 

As in the OP, I welcome your respec builds in this thread. Also as in the OP, I am only advocating this approach for certain subgroups of players, not all players all the time. The qualifiers for the build progressions I suggested as examples of this approach are in the OP.


  • Yallegro aime ceci

#63
LearnedHand

LearnedHand
  • Members
  • 371 messages

I think you just gave a superb demonstration of the meaning of recalcitrant.


  • Drasca aime ceci

#64
Yallegro

Yallegro
  • Members
  • 617 messages

I think you just gave a superb demonstration of the meaning of recalcitrant.

 

http://dictionary.re...se/recalcitrant


  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#65
TheLeakestWink

TheLeakestWink
  • Members
  • 234 messages

I think you just gave a superb demonstration of the meaning of recalcitrant.

 

By your understanding of the word, so did you.



#66
Parachromis

Parachromis
  • Members
  • 121 messages

I'm not quite sure I see the big deal here...if you want to respec, respec. Routine, Threatning, Perilous...all are easy with decent gear, sub-par promotes, and knowing a fair amount on the game's mechanics--which can be gained by simple observation. Play it how you want to. There is no science to this game. "Open doors, kill everything."

 

At some point you just have to jump in head-first and make the best of it & learn from it. There are no dire consequences...it's just a game.


  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#67
Drasca

Drasca
  • Members
  • 2 574 messages

I think you just gave a superb demonstration of the meaning of recalcitrant.

 

TL:DR Weakest is dumb.



#68
Campout King

Campout King
  • Members
  • 446 messages
Popcorn is in the microwave....

I will follow this thread....

Quite funny :)
  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#69
Zorinho20_CRO

Zorinho20_CRO
  • Members
  • 3 252 messages

Popcorn is in the microwave....

I will follow this thread....

Quite funny :)

Not for long,I am pretty sure.



#70
JAMiAM

JAMiAM
  • Members
  • 853 messages

Wow...I was on Wikipedia, studying the Infinite Monkey Theorem, and oddly enough, it had a link to this thread as a case in point.


  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci

#71
Proto

Proto
  • Members
  • 1 775 messages
Re-spec'ing is great for those of us who are approaching 200 cunning and couldn't care less for the leaderboards.

But, once you're to a certain point promotion / gear wise where materials are useless enough to waste on a respec you might as well just get it to 20 and promote.

Unfortunately, those who could benefit the most from respecs shouldn't waste the materials on them.
  • Brewskin aime ceci

#72
LearnedHand

LearnedHand
  • Members
  • 371 messages

So here's a real question: on the char select screen there is an option to "reset ability points." What does that do? I was always afraid to try it out a la Lost. It can't be a respec option because then the respec card would be redundant.



#73
ThatBruhYouDK

ThatBruhYouDK
  • Members
  • 1 526 messages

So here's a real question: on the char select screen there is an option to "reset ability points." What does that do? I was always afraid to try it out a la Lost. It can't be a respec option because then the respec card would be redundant.

When I pressed it before it brought me to the crafting screen to make a respec. That was a few months ago when respecs came out
  • LearnedHand aime ceci

#74
LearnedHand

LearnedHand
  • Members
  • 371 messages

So its not some doomsday device to reset everyone's promotion points? That would be funny.



#75
ThatBruhYouDK

ThatBruhYouDK
  • Members
  • 1 526 messages

So its not some doomsday device to reset everyone's promotion points? That would be funny.

I wish. I would have totally tricked people into pressing it :bandit:
  • TheLeakestWink aime ceci