394 réponses à ce sujet

[Quarian Master Race]

Renegade, though inconsistent, is usually far more sensible than Mr. "I'ma cure the genophage with Wreav and kill millions of people for the sake of some Reaper worshipping lifeless toasters because the feels" Paragon, and can end up with higher War Asset scores provided they don't go 100% Lower Right. Paragons can do way more damage by simply being stupid idealists. 

 

In fact, I'd argue the ultimate Paragon choice is the refuse ending, because that idiot speech Commander ****** gives is typical of the ideology it usually espouses (except mindless idealism finally fails as it should).

[LinksOcarina]

A. Clear how? Shepard proved nothing, and did nothing to change what was known from the start to the Catalyst.

Synthetics are a threat to organics, a momentary peace and some examples of cooperation between Synthetics and Organics do not change anything.

 

So why should the Catalyst doubt itself?

The Power of Love and Friendship? Please. It should have already seen everything during the who-knows-how-many

cycles before this one. You shouldn't be able to out-think, out maneuver, impress, or surprise something like that.

 

And even so, perhaps I could understand ordering a retreat in order to re-evaluate the problem,

but destroying itself therefore losing any chance of solving the problem, or giving control to an infinitely inferior intelligence,

sounds to you like choices that a super-smart cold, hard, logic machine would choose?

 

You are grasping at straws.

 

 

The Rest

 

As for the rest I'll just say this:

 

Regarding corporations: You seem to have much faith in them, good for you. I disagree, and don't really care enough to try and convince you otherwise.

 

I simply think that inherently most large corporations are hardwired to consider the agenda of maximizing profit first, while being nice or friendly to consumers is either much later down the line, or not on the agenda at all.

 

Regarding your "condemnation" of "The Fans":

You condemned a large group of people merely because of their associations. There is no cohesive unit called "Bioware's Fans".

 

There is an unholy mix of persons of any type imaginable, that usually can agree on very little.

On the ending, there was a very broad consensus: Most people simply didn't like it. This was where the cohesion ended.

This cohesive unit splintered when it came to the question of why the ending is so bad, and to the level of reaction.

 

Your coming on your high horse in your shining armor to defend poor Bioware by pretending like "The Fans" are a cohesive body that can be blamed

for the actions of individuals, is rather hypocritical considering.

 

Did those to devs you mentioned deserve a verbal lynching? Of course not. (regardless if they are to blame for the ending or not)

That said, I will not be blamed for actions that others performed that I didn't agree with and that had nothing to do with me,

nor do I feel the need to apologize for them.

 

The fans were not nice and polite when they protested the ending (that again was very widely disliked for multiple reasons)?

Well tough, I didn't think that using this ending, or Bioware's responses immediately after the ending were polite either.

 

I also don't consider politeness for its own sake as highly as you seem to consider it.

Sometimes, you simply can't be polite if you want to make your point.

 

I usually am not this polite when I make a point. Especially on here.

 

Here is the rub though: you conflate yourself as to being part of those who blamed them, but guilt by association in the end is always going to happen. I'm in the same boat so think about how much it makes me mad that folks keep repeating BS over such things because of how they see things, it becomes grating and makes me not want to participate as much as I think I do.

 

But frankly, someone has to call the community out on it. If people don't like it, tough on them if you ask me. You are not justified at being a dick just because someone else is, or perceived to be, right back at you. It just makes you look worse. This is not high school; adults in the real world would not stand for it, and you know that's the case. 

 

So yeah, I am condemning a large group of people, and frankly that group of people does itself no favors when it continues on with the expository stuff still, nearly 3 years later. If that puts me on the moral high horse, whatever, that's called judging people for their actions. We can do it on an individual basis fine, but the whole group gets tarnished when its outliers are the loudest voice. Trust me, I am not the only one making such judgements, but they are also not unfounded, which is really the bigger problem no one is talking about of course but whatever...we handwave it because of the internet excuse.

 

Hypocritical or not, a lot of people made the bed when it came to their attitude, so congrats, we all get judged the same because of it. Me, you, others on this forum who do engage in good discussion, because a bunch of people acted insane for six months and some of them never stopped.

 

 

I would comment on the rest but it's probably fruitless at this point. That said, was a pleasure though, I do enjoy challenging discussions. 

[angol fear]

There is an artistic *excuse*, not a valid artistic explanation.

 

I will freely admit that I care very little most of the time about much of what is referred to these days as "art".

 

Mass Effect is a story that had potential, and from story-telling perspective (and logic) the ending is a failure.

 

What is referred as art these days is the same that was referred as art. There's only the aesthetic that changed.

 

Mass Effect had a potential and people blame Bioware for revealing that artistic potential. When the form and the content are linked that's the beginning of art (literature, painting, music etc...). Mass Effect used a specific aesthetic, created a relation between the form and the content of the trilogy (the circles in Mass Effect, the ending created a link between most themes...), they had narrative ambition (the circle, the rythm, the philosophical aspect here since Mass Effect 2, the poetical aspect about the body which is linked to the philosophical aspect...).

From a storytelling perspective, the ending is a real success (sorry but story telling is not about satisfying people! it's about being coherent! The ending is coherent).

Sorry but when the vast majority impose his vision we are not in art! 

And logic has nothing to do with quality : La jetée, Terminator 1 etc... The logic argument is an excuse to hate the ending.

You disliked it, that's ok, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, it's about a writing that didn't fit your expectations.

[Iakus]

 

From a storytelling perspective, the ending is a real success (sorry but story telling is not about satisfying people! it's about being coherent! The ending is coherent).

 

No, it's not.  I (and a lot of other people) regard the endings, all the endings, as various coloration of failure.

 

As fro coherence:  It is, in fact so incoherent that IT was born to try to explain what "really happened"

[Ahglock]

No, it's not. I (and a lot of other people) regard the endings, all the endings, as various coloration of failure.

As fro coherence: It is, in fact so incoherent that IT was born to try to explain what "really happened"

Dude you can like or dislike art but you can't judge it. You don't have the art street cred to pull that off.

[Iakus]

Dude you can like or dislike art but you can't judge it. You don't have the art street cred to pull that off.

I do in fact have the street cred.  I bought  (N7 edition, and full price) and played the game.  I get to judge it.

[Ahglock]

I do in fact have the street cred. I bought (N7 edition, and full price) and played the game. I get to judge it.

Pshah. If you aren't a artist so you can't judge art. Only the truly elite can do that. Feel free not to like it, but your little no art mind can't comprehend the awesome of art. In order to truly judge it's artistic merit you must be an artist Consumers merely are allowed to consume or not consume. Judge art? You are not worthy.

In case i actually didn't lay it on thick enough, sarcasm.

[Laughing_Man]

...Hypocritical or not, a lot of people made the bed when it came to their attitude...

 

Funny, isn't it? That's exactly what I said about Bioware. The difference is, to me the condemnation of smug knights on their high horse (like this Patcher creature you mentioned), means very little. At most I add another website to the "do not visit, they are annoying and think that their farts smell like roses" - list.

 

For Bioware on the other hand, enraged fans are a somewhat bigger concern.

 

Obviously you don't care about the hypocrisy of guilt by association, so why should I care what you think about what right, wrong, polite or rude?

 

At this point all I have left to say is that I simply strongly disagree with most of what you wrote.

 

 

What is referred as art these days is the same that was referred as art. There's only the aesthetic that changed.

 

The logic argument is an excuse to hate the ending.

You disliked it, that's ok, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, it's about a writing that didn't fit your expectations.

 

Art: Po-ta-to, Po-tah-to.

 

Also, today it's too easy to smash a turd into the nearest wall and call it "art".

Everyone is too polite to call BS, and those that are not are called out as savages that can't appreciate "art".

 

Logic: Thank you for telling me why I didn't like the ending, and thank you for telling me that it's okay.

What will I ever do without your advice?

[LinksOcarina]

Funny, isn't it? That's exactly what I said about Bioware. The difference is, to me the condemnation of smug knights on their high horse (like this Patcher creature you mentioned), means very little. At most I add another website to the "do not visit, they are annoying and think that their farts smell like roses" - list.

 

For Bioware on the other hand, enraged fans are a somewhat bigger concern.

 

Obviously you don't care about the hypocrisy of guilt by association, so why should I care what you think about what right, wrong, polite or rude?

 

At this point all I have left to say is that I simply strongly disagree with most of what you wrote.

 

 

 

I never said you did and honestly it does not really affect me much.

 

Doesn't stop the fact of the matter though, which is the bigger point. The truth tends to be ugly like that. 

[Laughing_Man]

Doesn't stop the fact of the matter though, which is the bigger point. The truth tends to be ugly like that. 

 

Using words like "facts" and "truth", does not really help to make your highly subjective opinion the same.

 

And yes, the world is full of ugliness, which is subjective in itself. In fact, many people would associate the ME3 ending with ugliness in story telling.

 

Oh well.

[LinksOcarina]

Using words like "facts" and "truth", does not really help to make your highly subjective opinion the same.

 

And yes, the world is full of ugliness, which is subjective in itself. In fact, many people would associate the ME3 ending with ugliness in story telling.

 

Oh well.

 

You misunderstand.

 

People behaving poorly is simply a fact. That is not a subjective thing at all. In fact, it's one of the few objective things I can say here without equivocation. 

 

BioWare behaving poorly is subjective. You and me and our behavior is subjective. Critique and complaints are all subjective.

 

People asking for Mac Walters head on a platter...not subjective. Michael Patcher calling people whiny, not subjective. Big difference in the end.

 

There is no opinion on that one. You disagreeing with it can be an opinion, sure. But it is the wrong opinion to have. And yes, you can have wrong opinions sometimes. 

[AlanC9]

Renegade, though inconsistent, is usually far more sensible than Mr. "I'ma cure the genophage with Wreav and kill millions of people for the sake of some Reaper worshipping lifeless toasters because the feels" Paragon, and can end up with higher War Asset scores provided they don't go 100% Lower Right. Paragons can do way more damage by simply being stupid idealists. 
 
In fact, I'd argue the ultimate Paragon choice is the refuse ending, because that idiot speech Commander ****** gives is typical of the ideology it usually espouses (except mindless idealism finally fails as it should).

I wholly agree. We should have had more opportunities for mindless idealism, but it was nice to have these. (In general, Bio games are pretty weak at giving players a way to fail.)

[AlanC9]

No, it's not.  I (and a lot of other people) regard the endings, all the endings, as various coloration of failure.

Interesting kind of failure, since Shepard either achieves her goal or changes her mind about her goal and achieves an alternate, superior goal. (Excluding low-EMS states where a Shepard may, say, be forced into Control without believing in it.)

[Iakus]

You misunderstand.

 

People behaving poorly is simply a fact. That is not a subjective thing at all. In fact, it's one of the few objective things I can say here without equivocation. 

 

BioWare behaving poorly is subjective. You and me and our behavior is subjective. Critique and complaints are all subjective.

 

People asking for Mac Walters head on a platter...not subjective. Michael Patcher calling people whiny, not subjective. Big difference in the end.

 

There is no opinion on that one. You disagreeing with it can be an opinion, sure. But it is the wrong opinion to have. And yes, you can have wrong opinions some

 

times. 

And a fair number of pro-ending people behaved poorly too (I've got an ignore list to prove it too).  Do all of them get their opinion invalidated because "guilt by association"?

 

It may not be subjective that this Patcher guy called people whiny.  But his opinion is.  And if he's stooping to name-calling, I'd put him in the "behaving badly" category too.

 

And if your opinion is that my opinion is "wrong" then, well, your opinion is wrong.

[Iakus]

Interesting kind of failure, since Shepard either achieves her goal or changes her mind about her goal and achieves an alternate, superior goal.

My Shepard fought for the right to choose our own path.  Mine, and everyone's.  There is no goal superior to that.

 

So yeah, failure.

[AlanC9]

If the goal really was to choose the path, you got that. The problem is that you wanted two things which turned out to be incompatible.

If you want to play the mindless idealist, you need to go all-in with it and accept Refuse as a win.

[Bakgrind]

Calling it now. This is all misdirection. The player character will be a clone of Commander Shepard.

 

Oh it's defiantley  going to be Shepard 2.0 if we are to take the question posed by Casey Hudson of " What does N7 mean to you". But what's really funny is that they keep harping on the 'No more Shepard " thing when pretty much we all know that if they put together a well crafted, cohesive and  well written story they wont have to worry about Mass Effect being judged by its past.

[Iakus]

If the goal really was to choose the path, you got that. The problem is that you wanted two things which turned out to be incompatible.

If you want to play the mindless idealist, you need to go all-in with it and accept Refuse as a win.

 

No, my goal was stated on Rannoch: "I have a better idea:  We destroy you, and live our lives in peace"

 

But Bioware decided that goal wasn't "artistic" enough

[Iakus]

Oh it's defiantley  going to be Shepard 2.0 if we are to take the question posed by Casey Hudson of " What does N7 mean to you". But what's really funny is that they keep harping on the 'No more Shepard " thing when pretty much we all know that if they put together a well crafted, cohesive and  well written story they wont have to worry about Mass Effect being judged by its past.

Yup.  It's hard to keep an open mind when faith is so badly shaken.

 

The burned hand teaches best.  After that,advice about fire goes to the heart"

[Quarian Master Race]

 

My Shepard fought for the right to choose our own path.  Mine, and everyone's.  There is no goal superior to that.

 

So yeah, failure.

Except that goal results in you all dying horribly and being turned into organic slushie powering a stupid toaster. I don't know what, if anything that is superior to. Maybe low EMS destroy where everyone dies and no one even gets the honour of being "preserved" as Reaper paste is technically worse

You're asking for something that doesn't and cannot exist, and rejecting all other possibilities because of an indignant disagreement with the facts of the universe. That's called Nirvana fallacy, and you deserve your failure. 

 

No, my goal was stated on Rannoch: "I have a better idea:  We destroy you, and live our lives in peace"

 

But Bioware decided that goal wasn't "artistic" enough

Too bad that's literally impossible given the resources at your disposal, sans Crucible. Can be accomplished pretty easily with it, though, and with relatively few losses. It's entirely your fault if your weak conscience prefers galactic extinction because you can't get exactly what you want and choose to try and flip the table instead.

[Iakus]

 

 

Except that goal results in you all dying horribly and being turned into organic slushie powering a stupid toaster. I don't know what, if anything that is superior to. Maybe low EMS destroy where everyone dies and no one even gets the honour of being "preserved" as Reaper paste is technically worse
 

Like I said, Bioware didn't think it was 'artistic" enough

 

 

Too bad that's literally impossible given the resources at your disposal, sans Crucible. Can be accomplished pretty easily with it, though, and with relatively few losses. It's entirely your fault if your weak conscience prefers galactic extinction because you can't get exactly what you want and choose to try and flip the table instead.

Hey, Massively/God, you back under a different name?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dude you can like or dislike art but you can't judge it. You don't have the art street cred to pull that off.

Anyone can judge art. There's no cred required.

Evaluating art is a baseless enterprise. All of the time.

[Quarian Master Race]

Like I said, Bioware didn't think it was 'artistic" enough

It has little to do with art and everything to do with mathematics and sense. Thousands of Sovereign class Reapers vs a couple dozen ships capable of even doing damage to them. You can try those odds, and you can predictably fail. I don't see the issue here.
 

Hey, Massively/God, you back under a different name?

Because all people who think in practical terms when presented with a problem, rather than pointlessly speculating on hypothetical, unachiaveble nirvana solutions are one and the same.
 

[straykat]

Massively would never be a champ of the Quarians.

[Iakus]

It has little to do with art and everything to do with mathematics and sense. Thousands of Sovereign class Reapers vs a couple dozen ships capable of even doing damage to them. You can try those odds, and you can predictably fail. I don't see the issue here.
 

Mathematics and sense left the building when we were told Shepard's "organic energy" could be spewed throughout the galaxy to create a galactic Nirvana.

 

Who am I kidding?  It left the building way before that.

 

 

Because all people who think in practical terms when presented with a problem, rather than pointlessly speculating on hypothetical, unachiaveble nirvana solutions are one and the same.

What can I say?  You have a similar rudely dismissive attitude