180 réponses à ce sujet

[grieferbastard]

FireSarge wrote...
 I dont think anyone is saying its a bad game. It doesnt change the fact that ME1 was more RPG then shooter. now ME2 is more shooter then RPG.

its almost as radical a change as from fallout 2 to fallout 3.

Kabraxal wrote...

Most of the complaints, well the rational complaints, will cede that this is a good game in itself. But it is as a sequel that this game fails horribly. The gameplay was radically changed, losing much of the appeal that ME1 had and also certain story elements, especially carry over, were either contrived or disappointing.

If I had never played ME1, I would love this game for what it is. But since there was a previous legacy that it had to uphold... yeah, that is when the game falls apart in terms of perception. It does not feel like Mass Effect. It feels and acts like a different game in far too many ways.

You know, in a lot of ways I agree with both of you. I admit a bit of disappointment with ME2. I was literally logging into Direct2Drive to pre-order ME2 digital delux and looked over some of the reviews while I was at it. It raised a few questions so I did some more digging and then decided to hold off. Touched based with a friend who'd got to play with it and then went and tried it out on the rig of someone who bought it first day.

I was frustraited, I admit. It wasn't what I wanted.

That's the thing though. What did I want? I wanted DA:O on Citadel Station. I wanted it to be everything ME1 was and more than - but I wanted that 'more than' to be on the RPG side, not the combat side. Hey, I'm on my 4th playthrough on Badlands. I've beaten FO3 so many times it's hard to count and I generally run 40-60 mods on it. I love a good shooter game but that's not how I remembered ME1. Yet when I play through ME1 again, how much of an RPG was it, really? Some inventory management but not a lot. By the time you're halfway through you've got your money maxed out and are either ignoring new stuff (the Specter stuff is better than anything you find) or just smearing it all down for Omni-gel. I liked the Mako, but I've got a PC. I understand it sucked on a console controller. I enjoyed the background, the immersion of running around Citadel Station.

Yet what was the best part of ME1? The story. See, I'm sneaking up to ambush my 40th birthday. I've got a good career, family, etc. I'm not a kid. Yet completing ME1 the first time, that part where you attack Sarens base and find out just what Sovreign is.... honestly? I stayed up all night to finish the game after that and called in sick to work. It was, by the way, my only sick day of 2008. I skipped serious business obligations because I just had to know how it ended. Gripping story! Brilliant idea! Amazing story twist! As it all comes together in the last half of ME1.... do you really care that much about gear? Was it the cinema quality story that gripped you at that point or were you playing, eyes wide and all jazzed, because what you really cared about was seeing what was going to happen when you caught up to Saren. Did you ever wonder if you'd actually get back in time to stop him or that the storyline was going to involve the destruction of Citadel Station? 

That's why ME2, in the end, seems to me like a great followup for ME1. As odd as it sounds, the RPG elements were dropped in favor of focusing on the story itself. It's more of a movie than ME1. As much as I'd love an ME-RPG game I think it was the right choice for the Mass Effect storyline. Everything that draws you away from the visceral chase of the storyline and the action it creates was stripped out.

It's not the same sort of game as ME1. It is though, I would argue, a refinement of the sort of story Mass Effect is telling and a better game engine to tell it with.

Admittedly it's not my sort of game. Doesn't interest me as much and, well, honestly? I'll only give it a couple of playthroughs when I do get it. Mass Effect isn't the same sort of story as Dragon Age though. That's not bad.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

FireSarge wrote...

this would be like takeing COD MW. and turning COD MW2  into an RPG where your shooting skill dont matter as much.

thats almost as extreme a makeover it is from ME1 and ME2.

So basically you personally believe there is no RPG in ME2?

Are you sure you were playing ME2? Because from what I've seen of it there is still a hell of a lot of RPG in it. You and some of the other people are just being super picky as to what an RPG is.

Nevermind, you clearly are lost.... and unlike the lost in ME2, I just ain't gonna bother responding to you.

[Kabraxal]

There are minor RPG elements in ME2, but it is massively stripped and bare in comparison to ME1. People wanted it tweaked and improved, not gutted.



I am not one of those saying that this is not an RPG... granted it is far more TPS than RPG in comparison to ME1 but there is a levelling system, skill tree, and upgrading with minor customisation. It is the simple fact that this is a direct sequel to ME1 and it gutted most of the gameplay elements in that game. Some people are enraged and exaggerating the issue, but it is true that ME2 is less of an RPG compared to ME1. There are less options available.



But I agree... I wish people would stop the whole "it isn't an RPG at all!" schtick.

[LyonVanguard]

Bioware can't ruin Mass Effect. They are the original creators of the game. They can do whatever they want.

[LyonVanguard]

Kabraxal wrote...

There are minor RPG elements in ME2, but it is massively stripped and bare in comparison to ME1. People wanted it tweaked and improved, not gutted.

I am not one of those saying that this is not an RPG... granted it is far more TPS than RPG in comparison to ME1 but there is a levelling system, skill tree, and upgrading with minor customisation. It is the simple fact that this is a direct sequel to ME1 and it gutted most of the gameplay elements in that game. Some people are enraged and exaggerating the issue, but it is true that ME2 is less of an RPG compared to ME1. There are less options available.

But I agree... I wish people would stop the whole "it isn't an RPG at all!" schtick.

Who cares if its an RPG or not. Its a badass game. That is it. What more do you want?

[Kabraxal]

A sequel that is more similar to its well recieved predecessor. Too many (bad, IMO) changes, too many cuts, and too many carry over issues for me to consider this game to be a good sequel.

[FireSarge]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

FireSarge wrote...

this would be like takeing COD MW. and turning COD MW2  into an RPG where your shooting skill dont matter as much.

thats almost as extreme a makeover it is from ME1 and ME2.

So basically you personally believe there is no RPG in ME2?

Are you sure you were playing ME2? Because from what I've seen of it there is still a hell of a lot of RPG in it. You and some of the other people are just being super picky as to what an RPG is.

Nevermind, you clearly are lost.... and unlike the lost in ME2, I just ain't gonna bother responding to you.

have you read the whole thread? i have many posts pointing out the missing RPG elements. Can you make decisions in ME2? yes. Guess what i am already at lvl 20 and so far my decisions dont mean didly squat.


maybe just maybe i am used to a higher quality of an RPG. Bioware is known or putting out the best of the best in RPG.

doesnt change the fact they dumped the RPG to cater  to the shooter fan boys.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

And yet there are people that have posted when not playing the game that have stated that they took all the good elements and removed/modified some of the bad.

Devs can't please everyone. You just happen to be in the unhappy camp.

Edit: Above response was to Kabraxal

I would like to point out that some of the people that have stated it is good are also RPG fans and unlike some narrowminded people such as FireSarge, they can see the RPG elements are still at the core of the game.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .

[Junebug88]

In many ways i think its a more advanced RPG. i think BioWare's ultimate goal here, while to produce a great trilogy is to also produce new and exciting mechanics, even if that means replacing some methods with others.



...thats just my take anyway.

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

Kabraxal wrote...

There are minor RPG elements in ME2, but it is massively stripped and bare in comparison to ME1. People wanted it tweaked and improved, not gutted.

I am not one of those saying that this is not an RPG... granted it is far more TPS than RPG in comparison to ME1 but there is a levelling system, skill tree, and upgrading with minor customisation. It is the simple fact that this is a direct sequel to ME1 and it gutted most of the gameplay elements in that game. Some people are enraged and exaggerating the issue, but it is true that ME2 is less of an RPG compared to ME1. There are less options available.

But I agree... I wish people would stop the whole "it isn't an RPG at all!" schtick.

Game mechanics vs. gameplay

We have very different opinions on what are the main gampelay elements of ME (for me personally things you mentioned are game mechanics)!

Modifié par NINJ4 R4BBID, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .

[kjs7]

Everyone is acting like Mass Effect was a complex RPG to start with. It never was. It was a very flawed TPS with RPG elements. Bioware improved on the weakest aspect (combat) and streamlined the game making for a much nicer interface. I still shudder when I think about having to convert 30 items to omnigel to fit my inventory.



I don't see the problem. It's obvious that Bioware made Dragon Age for the hardcore RPG crowd and Mass Effect for the shooter crowd that enjoys a well written story. Is that a problem? No. I love Dragon Age, and I love the hell out of Mass Effect 2 so far. Space Opera does not get any better than this game.

[jpetrey123]

this game is amazing. the RPG elements are still clearly there. to me a good RPG is based on the story, not retarded armor you can collect, and not an inventory system where i have to click "sell for omni-gel"....dont remember exact wording but besides the point. This game is just as good of a RPG than then first with an AMAZING tps aspect to it. i have played for 15 hours and love the story so far. Also i do agree that the genre does not matter. this game is badass no matter what genre it is.

[malkuth74]

I like the game just as much as I liked ME1. Sorry you don't. But thats life.

[Etan Lawok]

Taranatar9 wrote...

Given EA's involvement, I'm actually surprised by how much Mass Effect hasn't been ruined.

Of course, I haven't finished it yet.  It could still pull a KOTOR 2.

I do not think EA has a lot to do with what Bioware does other than QA.

KOTOR 2 was also developed by Obsidian... so yeah.

[wrexingcrew]

I haven't played ME2 yet, so I can't contribute much to the discussion at this point...really, I just want to say one thing.



grieferbastard, you are a credit to our species.

[CannonO]

I miss exploration. Some of it was beautiful and serene, others were turbulent, and some were eery. It was something that should have been improved, not just deleted.

[Etan Lawok]

I have to be honest, Mass Effect 2 makes my head explode with candy (I mean that in the best way possible). It is beautiful and at first I was missing all of the customization options but as you progress through the game they are they, just in a different respect. Amazing game. Mass Effect was my favorite game of all time and it looks as though the series will hold that place for a long time coming.

[Twitchmonkey]

CannonLars wrote...

I miss exploration. Some of it was beautiful and serene, others were turbulent, and some were eery. It was something that should have been improved, not just deleted.

I think instead of getting many nearly identical areas, we got a few more interesting and in-depth ones. I think it's a fair trade, but if it were possible to have both, that would certainly be ideal. Hopefully they manage this with ME# and any other further titles that take place in the universe, they've sort of established extremes with ME1 and ME2.

[DarSinister]

bioware should give me my money back ME2 sux i can't even play it, will sell it not buy ME3 and stick to the real game ME1

[DarSinister]

and whats the deal with breaking up the gameplay with the stupid mission overview screen, stupid. and i want to know why we only get half the amount of skill as we had in ME1 what fun is that and half of those for most classes are ammo mod skills wth bioware. i get why you improved the combat but why change anything else it was perfect, damnit im so bummed right now

[drhelio212]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fallix6969 wrote...It will be a good game and the hardcore gamers will die to defend it, but it just let the majority of us down.

Which majority would that be?

The vocal minority?

[vengEXwolf]

relhart wrote...

ME1 wasn't mainstream? Lawl.

Both are obviously developed for the twitch FPS consumers. I don't see why after playing the first one you would buy the second one expecting something other than a FPS with a good story.

Um, you realize FPS means FIRST PERSON SHOOTER.
Mass effect is a THIRD PERSON SHOOTER.
Epic fail on your part.

[AlanC9]

FireSarge wrote...

have you read the whole thread? i have many posts pointing out the missing RPG elements.

Yep, I've seen your posts. The're not quite as convincing as you think they are.

[Oblarg]

The amount of blatant BioWare fanboyism on these forums is sickening.

That aside, I'm about 10 hours into ME2, and even with the blatant stripping down of character customization (and numerous other things), I'm still enjoying it. ME1 was better in my opinion, but it's not bad, and it's certainly not the end of the world as some people would have you believe (honestly, it's a ****ing game, get over yourselves).

Here's what I've encountered thus far:

Improvements:
Dialogue - Better lines, better voice acting, interruptions are nice (though could be more frequent, and I've yet to see one where you have to choose between a paragon and a renegade interrupt).
Characters - Less one-dimensional and more interesting personalities. I'm not that big of a fan of what they did to Garrus (you think he'd at least change his armor once it's destroyed, though).
Combat - The cover system is wonderful and heaps better than what it was in ME1. The ammo system is lame, and I don't particularly like the new ability cooldown system or the heaps of armor every single enemy in the game has, but the cover system makes up for that tenfold. It was very hard to roleplay as an infiltrator in ME1 when you couldn't effectively use cover in a firefight at all. Tactical cloak is very nice.
The Normandy - Nothing much to say here other than that I love the new ship interior.

Things that are worse:
Customization - This took a big hit. Argue around it all you want, but customization has been stripped down, almost mutilated. The abilities don't have enough ranks and all the ability upgrades follow the same pattern, as do the weapon upgrades. The lack of different weapons of the same type *might* have been excusable with an extensive upgrade system (such as building on the system ME1 had in place), but as far as I can tell all of the upgrades are linear and boring. No, I do not want +x% damage for my sniper rifle as (basically) the only upgrade choice, especially when the upgrades are in a linear fashion. There's nothing to think about. You go find minerals and click the upgrade button. There is no customization there. The lack of variety of armors is also pretty annoying, and the fact that you lose potential stats for not equipping a helmet (I really don't like how they look, and I didn't like this in DA:O, either) is frustrating. Give me a "show helmet" option back.
Exploration - And I thought the ME1 mako mountain climbing excursions could be boring. The scanning system is terrible and grindy. At least in the mako I got to see pretty scenery (ooh, hills!). In addition, you're pretty much forced to scan planets if you want to upgrade your weapons at all. The fuel is annoying and pointless. Flying the ship around the gravity well feels gimmicky and unpolished. I much more enjoyed the old galaxy map, which gave me a wonderful feeling of immersion.
Ammo System - I know I mentioned how the cover system more than makes up for this (and it does), but this is really bad. I've spent at least half an hour scrounging around rooms looking for thermal clips; this doesn't make gameplay more tactical, it makes it longer and more frustrating. Don't fix what isn't broken, BioWare. The cooldown system might have needed some tweaking to the rates, but this is uncalled for.
Plot Linearity - I've yet to see how I could have affected the outcome of a single mission in any meaningful way, aside from whether or not I should recruit grunt into my team (oh boy, tough decision!). The fact that you are, no matter what you say, in essence working for Cerberus is infuriating. Attempting to avoid spoilers, the meeting with Kaiden is pathetic and disappointing, and the fact that you can't really get on friendly terms with Anderson (or have any meaningful discussion with him) is even worse. Honestly, did my Shepard suddenly start blindly supporting terrorist groups when he's been with the military his entire life? Yes, the council is blind (huge surprise there), but that doesn't mean I can't work with the Systems Alliance. Hell, I'm supposed to be a hero. The game advertised choices. I see none so far. I really don't trust the Illusive Man, but my character is forced to blindly do whatever he says. Oh, and what the hell is wrong with the Illusive Man's eyes?

Overall, yes, it's very disappointing to see many of the RPG elements gutted. No, it doesn't make the game awful. I will continue enjoying it for what it is, and hope they shift back towards RPG for ME3.

And, regarding the KotOR2 comments earlier (being a very big fan of KotOR2, I really can't help myself), Obsidian wasn't responsible for the ending (or lack thereof), LucasArts was.

Modifié par Oblarg, 28 janvier 2010 - 05:44 .